Vigilus

[Knockagh]

While not strictly BL (yet) I’m really enjoying the current Vigilus campaign fluff.

So far we only have the campaign book and a short story in this months WD. The campaign book is superb. I can’t remember GW ever setting out a world in such detail before. It’s the type of details I always wanted on a world. Unfortunately this one, in true 40k fashion, will be burned to rock. Build it and wreck it.

Anyone else read the background info? Has it wet anyone else’s appetite to see how planets operate? From water and food production to export and manufacturing info, I love it and would have enjoyed even more details and yes a few stats would be nice!

I definitely would recommend it to anyone who enjoys world building and wrecking, but it was the world building I found most fascinating.

Lots going on here with the Dark Angels (a saga that’s obviously going to grow in the next year or so), Calgar gets some interesting developments. The crimson fists get more tragedy thrown their way ( a story that is crying out for a FULL BL novel)

Will the planet explode? How else will they get all that black rock out??

Well done to all the GW staff involved in this it was definitely quite a project.

A BL novel around the pauper princes would be excellent too.

I really wasn’t keen on the changes to 40k for a while but ADBs Spears book which brought the Imperium Nihilus into reality and this Vigilus book has finally excited me. Lots of new playgrounds here for exciting stories.

[mr.crusader]

So far we only have the campaign book and a short story in this months WD. 

Plus five more short stories, known as 'Tales from Vigilus':

To Kill a Dark King

Tainted Cargo

Desperate Measures

Amidst The Flames

The Three-armed Gunfighter

[Knockagh]

Ebooks.....

[Blood Angel Scout]

Not really e-books, more like blog posts in length, 5-6 pages at most but give a little more lore to the campaign

[DukeLeto69]

@PunishingPete well that has decided it for me, defo buying this. My heart thanks you. My wallet curses you...LOL

[Taliesin]

I was interested and thought about buying book 1, but then what I read from the story summaries made me decide to hold off and buy book 2 instead, which is clearly where Abaddon comes in for real to this planet with the Black Legion in tow. Looks like that will come out in March.

[Knockagh]

Skipping book one will cost you a lot of background info on the planet itself. I’m expecting book two to be much more a forces and rules book. But I hope we get more solid fluff on the dark angles and what they are up to, if I pull out my crystal ball I think (hope) I see the Primaris v original marine tensions boiling over in book two.

I loved that you get a good sized summary of each city on the planet in book one. It’s probably unnecessary if you just want to play but essential if you want to wallow in the world.

I get the vibe that GW have learnt a lesson from the popularity of the lore heavy HH black books and are trying to mimic them in their campaign books. I think that’s brilliant. I’m not going to say this book is as good as a black book, it’s not. It isn’t as long or as detailed but it’s a massive step in the right direction for expanding the galaxy's fluff. Getting down and dirty into a planets details is something I’ve always wanted. I would love a mars book, a Kreig book or wait for it a Terra book! With plenty of maps!

[DukeLeto69]

I was interested and thought about buying book 1, but then what I read from the story summaries made me decide to hold off and buy book 2 instead, which is clearly where Abaddon comes in for real to this planet with the Black Legion in tow. Looks like that will come out in March.

Why not both?

[JustinDHill]

Just listened to Phil Kelly talking about this on the Voxcast podcast. Sounds spot on.

[Jareddm]

While not strictly BL (yet) I’m really enjoying the current Vigilus campaign fluff.

So far we only have the campaign book and a short story in this months WD. The campaign book is superb. I can’t remember GW ever setting out a world in such detail before. It’s the type of details I always wanted on a world. Unfortunately this one, in true 40k fashion, will be burned to rock. Build it and wreck it.

This is exactly what I'd hope GW would be doing for awhile.  For years there were complaints that campaigns were pointless because, "The Imperium has to win!  There can't be significant gains for anyone!  The status quo has to be maintained!"  But by fleshing out a new sector and really digging into it.  And more importantly, making people care about it (we might not be there yet), you can, as you say, build it and wreck it.  If the whole thing blows up in the end, that's okay.

[Knockagh]

I think Vigilus might actually need to be blown up to get at all the black stone. I can’t see a good outcome for the citizens.

The new sectors are indeed exciting. I love the idea of small pockets of the imperium buried and fighting in isolation in the Imperium Nihilus. In spears of the emperor the inquisition agent lets it out that they still have outposts in the dark. What a scary place that would be, an inquisition outpost operating in the mess of Nihilus.

I will download that voxcast podcast tonight for listening tomorrow. I haven’t tried GWs official radio show yet, give me an excuse to try it.

[Panzer]

GW could turn Vigilus into the new Cadia and keep it as permanent battleground as well I fear. It's quite important after all since if it falls (and the rift closes the gap assuming the blackstone is what keeps the passage open) the Imperium will have to either look for another passage (I think there was one in the galactic south and then there's the T'au warp tunnel as well) or the two halves will really be separated this time.

[Xisor]

I somewhat love the background in the main book...

 

And also sortof hate it.

 

(Hate might be a bit strong. Resent? Find insufficient? I had a vaguely similar issue with the Inquisition Encyclopaedia that they produced a while back - it wasnt quite what it seemed to try to be, so I couldn't enjoy it for what it was, but was always left aware of the gulf of what it seemed to want/claim to be [a comprehensive look at the Inquisition across BL & GW], and what it was [a potted look at =][= with some little extras, but mainly abbreviated entries accompanying Abnett's Inq stories])

 

The Iron Hands are the first to turn up.

 

But also Space Wolves have turned up without comment? So did they arrive before or during the Iron Hands efforts?

 

And the Iron Hands - a Chapter the famously is internally and constantly fractious, is just cutting up about doing its thing free of internal strife.

 

Better, their there with their Successors, the Brazen Claws! What do we know of them? They're even more isolationist and uncooperative than their Ancestor Chapter!

 

Yet here they both are, cooperating in a fairly nondescript, not-worth-mentioning capacity.

 

And in other news: Tech-Priest Dominus is a foremost battle-leader, a militant go-between that is a violent proxy for the machinations of senior, off-site Tech-Priests.

 

Why are they also civic leaders and Merchant/Feudal Lords?

 

---

 

In some respects, I love it the idea of the book, and very much its intent. And I almost love its execution.

 

But for all that: I don't. I read it and instead of enjoying all these wondrous pieces, I can't help but resent it for not having... Verisimilitude?

 

The given details are nice, but the choices of focus feel all too revealing.

 

It'd be like having the White Scars show up to - without comment - do a bit of trench warfare. Not implausible, but there's a sense of unusual story in it. To not even recognise it would feel peculiar.

 

Or perhaps some Salamanders and Space Wolves terrorising a civil populace just to cause havoc for the subversive cults...

 

Iron Hands just... Cooperating. As you please.

 

---

 

This sort of issue cropped up in "The Gathering Storm" too. In the Space of sixty years, Lufgt Huron goes from Space Rebel to canny Primarch Apprehender... without any particular preparation or experience.

 

Similarly, old Belisarius Cawl - Archmagos Dominus.

 

Except he's not doing much, and his back story includes almost zero account of any pedigree of... Dominusing.

 

It's like Fabius Bile walking competently into the job of Primarch.

 

Not 100% implausible in entirety, but the sort of thing you'd expect to have... A bit of a song and dance made of.

 

Unless this is all shorthand for evoking <cool story goes here>, but it doesn't read like that.

 

Rather, it reads to me like "this quote is a cool story. And so you have now read a cool story. We just told you a cool story, remember?"

 

Does that make sense?

 

The motivation for throwing out the calendar also doesn't stand to scrutiny.

 

I can appreciate that local calendars will always be more convenient, locally.

 

But the Imperium will still eventually make an effort to impose order on chaotic and disordered things.

 

E.g. It will still assign a check-digit date to events.

 

That's why check-digit 9 exists. To accommodate "hecking crazy" warp-timeline anomaly stuff.

 

Unless they are trying to write in non-linear time loops (E.g. Primarneus arrives but is reinforced by mid-Indomitus Guilliman - or to reword it - pre-Dark Imperium Guilliman is supporting forces from his own personal future!), their justification is unnecessary. And even if they are trying something like that, that sort of timey-wimey nonsense was always a possibility, and still covered by the old Imperial Calendar!

 

Grr.

[Petitioner's City]

@Xisor, I definitely agree about these comments - for this book, for Gathering Storm, for the Fenris ones, for those Tau conflict ones a few years ago. It's my massive concern with scale in 40K fluff by the studio, it never feels right or proper that the 'main' first founding are always involved, despite the small numbers of each chapter (a big village of people) and the scale of the universe. Nor is there a real sense of passage of time - for the special characters or the chapters themselves or the still everywhere Cadians. Versmilitude is definitely a good word for the lack of in most studio products. Think if the studio had done the Badab books - it'd be every main character from the codexes in one big fight, wouldn't it?

 

You know, I like what Guy Haley did with Dark Imperium - there are only 4 famous characters - Roboute, Sicarus, Mephiston and Calus Typhon - and lots of new characters filling things out, including the primaris tetrarch-esque character, the astartes and mortal line troopers, the Novamarine(?) characters, etc.. That's nice, that's real, that makes mostly sense. No saint whoever, general everywhere, or so on that we always see.

 

One thing that is nice are the new Black Legion characters - even if they are a bit crap compared to the work done on Chaos marines in various BL books or even old 2nd edition codices.

[Knockagh]

I can agree with many of your complaints. There is much in 40k thats unrealistic, to read 40k is to suspend your given and learnt belief patterns.

Yes authors should try their upmost to try to help with our unbelief by making it as believable as possible. Things like the continual involvement of the founding chapters in everything doesn’t help with that but their inclusion shouldn’t really be a suprise. They are popular and we know a lot about them, so yes it’s a little weird but it’s one of those things I don’t mind giving my head a rest over.

As I said the book isn’t up to Horus Heresy black book standard, I’m not expecting it to be. But it’s a massive step in the right direction for a fluff led 40k. It’s a deeper look at the setting and that should be applauded, warts and all.

Fluff will always conflict with the game. Don’t forget this book is primarily a players book, and most players have first founding marines. It’s about striking a balance, which isn’t easy.

[Xisor]

Well, there's at least a very simple solution for a few of these:

1- Remove the Iron Hands. Just have it be the Brazen Claws and their effort at a wholly new Primaris Brazen Claws Successor.

2- give the civic leader a different title, or introduce the Dominus as representative for some unknown secret leader.

 

These sort of things are trivial switches, but switch from a claustrophobic universe continually tripping itself up, to an expansive one that's continually got more fascinating things to uncover.

 

It's very conspicuous.

 

In both of those, my suspension of disbelief isn't so much challenged and engaged/suspended, but... Hassled.

 

It gets in the way of the good stuff.

 

(See also almost every Deathwatch team having at least one someone from one of the Chapters that make up less than 0.9% of the total number, let alone extinctions, orphans and blackshields!)

 

You're right that it's a deeper look, @Punishing Pete, but it's a deeper look that has very many hidden shallows that snare the unwary reader.

 

(I also think GW could be bold and have the big chapters 'out of sight', just off screen, whilst every new bit of lore is adding in more and more and more new bits.)

 

Still keep releasing Primarmeus.but if you're writing fluff, you can be writing about the stuff that can't be captured in a big-selling model... The political and religious hang-up of the Brazen Claws, for example.

 

Or whoever their Primaris pals are.

 

(Etc.)

 

I think the balance they're striking is woeful. (And I'd got further tonsuggest that the motivation to strike the current balance is unsubstantiated from a sales PoV, but that's a suspicion - I'm in no position to know that.)

[Dumah]

I would take exception to removing the Iron Hands; at this point, I'm happy to be included in any new materials! Also, as regards them working cooperatively with others, that's in line with the paradigm shift begun by Kardan Stronos after becoming Warleader.

[Xisor]

I would take exception to removing the Iron Hands; at this point, I'm happy to be included in any new materials! Also, as regards them working cooperatively with others, that's in line with the paradigm shift begun by Kardan Stronos after becoming Warleader.

Absolutely - I can see that. It's very plausible... Except its not actually part of the story!

 

And even then it's Chapter Master Stronos at that point!

 

They're just there and - except for the particular functional details of the war - that's that, no other commentary made.

 

As said: I'd not be happy to have Salamanders show up and start slaughtering innocents just to be included!

[Knockagh]

Crimson fists do some slaughtering of the innocents much to their shame.

 

The Iron Hands and other early arrivals were already en route to the system when the rift appeared as were many imperial forces so surely it’s not beyond reason they move to the nearest conflict? The book does state that the early marine involvement was in no way a planned or organised force it was happenstance because of the black crusade. Surely the Cadian system would have been full of late arrivals to Cadia what with the nature of warp travel? These early arrivals to Vigilus hardly make any impact on the war with their numbers being so small. But it does allow these popular chapters to play as part of the wider conflict.

[Xisor]

Crimson fists do some slaughtering of the innocents much to their shame.

 

The Iron Hands and other early arrivals were already en route to the system when the rift appeared as were many imperial forces so surely it’s not beyond reason they move to the nearest conflict? The book does state that the early marine involvement was in no way a planned or organised force it was happenstance because of the black crusade. Surely the Cadian system would have been full of late arrivals to Cadia what with the nature of warp travel? These early arrivals to Vigilus hardly make any impact on the war with their numbers being so small. But it does allow these popular chapters to play as part of the wider conflict.

Again - absolutely! Technically it's permissable but.. I guess the technical details don't matter to me much.

 

Sure, Goge Vandire's son could marry Von Strab's and have a child who goes on to become Warmaster of the Black Legion, but it still makes the universe feel smaller.

 

But of 1,000(+, as they're all for dying quickly too) Chapters, it's the same nine that are seen everywhere.

 

The odds are... Surprisingly small, and so that having Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Iron Hands in the same warzone is remarkable indeed.

 

Well, it's not that small, sure. And there's plenty of fights. And Vigilus is a big one.

 

---

 

But for flip's sake, have some... Narrative restraint.

 

Why the Iron Hands and not just give the Brazen Claws the (dubious, unremarkable) limelight?

 

Eh. It's an exhausting thing to think on.

 

Thousands of Chapters. Same nine (thirteen including Crimbo Fists, Templars, Flesh Tearers and Grey Knights) show up every ol' place.

[Knockagh]

LOL, the rainbow warriors are feeling left out

[Xisor]

Sorry to continue the rant, but it's worth noting: the same old thirteen chapters being moaned about when they're *left out*!

 

"But what about the Space Wolves!?"

 

To heck with them.

 

More about the Rainbow Warriors. Or anybody else!

 

(And yes, I do enjoy those thirteen. But come on!)

 

---

 

In general though, I should self-defeat: there are very many bits of the whole idea of the Vigilus book(s) that I love and find v wholesome.

 

Vigilus is so much closer to my tastes than The Gathering Storm. (And I did quite enjoy the Gathering Storm, more or less, especially in isolated sub-component parts.)

[Panzer]

As Blood Angels player I'm glad that I'm left out. It's way too crowded already anyway. However I disagree with leaving Iron Hands out. Just because they are a first founding chapter it doesn't mean they don't need some love. I think they are one of the most underrepresented big chapters we have. There are some successor chapters who get more attention in the lore even. I'd rather see Brazen Claws left out than Iron Hands.

[Fedor]

I've often got the impression with the studio attempts at lore exansion that they get themselves tied into knots at times trying to include as many factions as possible into every event. Understandable given it's for a tabletop wargame, but it does rub awkwardly against the attempts at overarching narrative at times.

[Sete]

Ultras didn't need to be there. IH should have got the spotlight with a Primaris Kardan Stronos.

But hey! Ultras have to be 1st everywhere/ everything.

BT didn't need to even have a formation in the book. They don't even feature. IH should have had one.