Rhinos to the front?

[sturguard]

Hey folks,

I just recently got back to playing (new store opened locally) and I joined their new campaign.
 

I just posted the 2k list I am building towards- please take a look at the SW army list section and comment.

 

Anyways, I kind of want to use Bjorn. He seems like a real dual threat with being able to shoot a lascannon while marching his way up the field to engage with Trueclaw. Maybe Im wrong, but it seems like he can handle just about anything in melee. Anyways. So I am going back and forth on units. I have 3 dreads  I have been using in my 1k games. I noticed they only have a move of 6 while Bjorn is 8. The Wulfen dread has the advantage of moving 8, but has no shooting. So smoke launchers caught my eye. -1 to hit the unit when you give up shooting. I also have a rune priest in my army and a decent amount of command points. Instead of marching dreadnoughts in front of Bjorn and wasting their shooting by popping smoke, why not a cheap rhino. Smoke, plus the rune priests ability to use the strategem of -1 to hit anything within 6 inches of the RP, that makes that rhino -2 to hit. Put a cover save on it and for 68 pts you have a character shield that would be very difficult to take out. -2 to hit, 2+ save, 10 wounds for 68 pts? Seems like it could be a great screen if you wanted to run a few thunderwolf/bike/jump pack characters. Heck if you zoomed 2 rhinos forward with a sizeable investment in choppy characters behind, I would be hard pressed to think of what could knock out 20 wounds with a 2+ save and -2 to hit before you could target any of those characters. And if your opponent ignores them.... great, now hopefully you have set yourself up to get multiple charges with those characters.

 

 

Also, could you use your rhino to obscure a dreadnought from view of the enemy (say 60%) so he would gain a cover save? Also, if a dread is obscured by has one army sticking out, could it also fire the weapon in the other arm that is behind the wall- or do we make sure both weapons have line of sight?

 

Does anyone have any experience with this? And be sure to take a look at my list!

 

Thanks!

[Yoyo ninja]

It really depends on how competitive your local meta is, but I would say at 2000 points you will be facing things that could wipe 2 rhinos off the board without much issue. There are ways out there for people to ignore hit modifiers and a 2+ doesn't mean much either. Invun saves are key this edition if you need something to survive. Cheap wulfen dreads with claws and a shield will keep Bjorn in the game for longer, and a small pack of Helblasters behind him offer good fire support for the advance and something to 'watch his back' incase of deep strikers.

 

Another thing to look at might be TWC. While that might be an unpopular idea at the moment due to lack of SS points drop, they do have some things going for them as character blockers. They have a big footprint on the table, so it's easy to keep characters safe with them, they are T5 with 3 wounds, so they are in that awkward area in target priority, do you throw lots of anti infantry shooting their way and waste most of it, or do you waste your anti tank shots on them? and with a SS they won't be affected by AP, so it makes them even more survivable. Arm them with chainswords and they have 6 attacks each, so any that do make it to combat will be able to clear chaff units for Bjorn to get to the really big things he wants to be fighting.

 

Down side to them is the cost. Armed like I said, they are 50 points each, which for a unit you are planning on dying is a lot. That said, this edition is brutal and most things die pretty quick, so that is going to be an issue what every you choose.

 

Edit = spelling.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Bjorn is a beast for sure. I usually give him a dread bodyguard or 2 and bring a 3 or 4 Razorbacks to provide fire support plus a character protection bubble. Has worked quite well for me in the past.

[TiguriusX]

I love Bjorn...he used to be the center piece of my army before the codex dropped and I sometimes wonder why I stopped using him (too many new codex toys to play with!)

 

Let me share my Bjorn experience with you

 

The most important lesson is to remember that Bjorn is a glass cannon...all offense no defense

He has NO INVULNERABLE SAVE

If someone can get the clear shot with a normal AT weapon like a lascannon they will tear Bjorn to shreds

In melee things like dreads and smash captains can also rip him to pieces

It sounds odd for such an amazing character but you need to learn how to babysit Bjorn and keep threats off of him

 

1 way to reduce melee threats is to run an iron priest behind him for repairs + armor of russ relic.  If Bjorn can strike first he will pretty much kill any single model coming after him

Another way is to hide nearby models of out LOS and maximize his character rule protection

 

Second most important lesson about Bjorn....he should not sit in the back avoiding combat

He needs to be in the thick of things or he is an expensive set of guns

You don't need to kamikaze charge him forward but he should be there when the important game deciding combats are taking place

 

Good luck!

 

Win or lose I hope you come back to share with us and have a good time

 

 

 

*Edit

 

Wulfen dreads don't have smoke launchers.  Check your codex carefully when looking at all the different dread options b/c they have minor changes in their default equipment and the changes that you can make (look carefully at SBs and smoke launchers)

[sturguard]

Tigurius,

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am aware that Wulfen dreads dont have smoke, but they do have movement 8 which means they can keep ahead of Bjorn, whereas a ven dread or normal dread are only movement 6, so essentially Bjorn has to slow down to keep his protection. With the wulfen dread you are just relying on his 4+ invul.

 

So I have an Iron Priest in the list, which I like, especially with the armor of Russ, as the IPs bane has been no invul save. Would a wolf lord on thunderwolf be better, or jump pack wolf lord?

[Konnavaer]

The wolf lord question kind of depends on the role you need him to perform dude, I love the lord on thunderwolf because he is sitting at t5 with 7 wounds and if you give him a SS he has a 3++ too plus he gets the bonus attacks from the thunderwolf mount, giving him a claw or sword/axe makes him great at clearing out infantry. The jump pack lord obviously isn't as tough and has less attacks but can essentially deep strike and doesn't have the restrictions of moving into or through terrain and onto the second floor of buildings, plus he has a smaller footprint which means it is easier for him to avoid fire and use the character rules to his advantage, he tends to get the TH + SS combo and becomes in essence our version of the smash captain with +1 to hit which with the TH is awesome. I have lords modelled on both wolves and with jump packs and have used them both this edition with good success, depending on points you can also use a battle leader to perform a lot of the same roles without too much of a hit in performance.

[Shas Oh Dear]

I've had a lil look at your list and a read of what you've said here and I've got a few thoughts, just my 2 cents. I'm by no means an ultra competitive player so bare that in mind. So firstly your dreadnoughts, while I sort of understand what you're going for they are a bit conflicted. Either keep the weapons they have and use them as static fire support or switch them to wulfen/ven dreads and forget any shooting and ram them down your opponents throat to keep your characters safe.

Your thoughts on the mobility of venerable vs wulfen dreads, if all they have to do is stay ahead of bjorn you'll be fine bjorn won't be advancing if he wants to shoot and the gunless vens always will advance. It comes down to whether you want the added durability and better stats of the ven or the cheapness and slight increase in speed of getting into combat that the wulfen dread has.

I'm a big fan of rhinos as a forward force, they give your obsec units some much needed mobility and also give an extra shield for your characters, opponents find it very irritating to shoot at rhinos as they can prove unexpectedly resilient but also not really a threat in themselves (they are 72 points though, not 68). Obscuring is no longer a thing so no gaining cover from anything that isn't area terrain for vehicles.

Like tigurius said bjorn is a cc monster but he is fragile. Don't charge anything that has its own clear combat capabilites and a good invulnerable cus bjorn will almost certainly let you down. Personally I prefer to use him as an HI option to deter charges rather than being overly aggressive.

Now your rune priest is a bit of an oddity, if you take him on a bike he only gets 1 tempestus power so you get storm caller but that's it which means you're stuck to just smite which may often be a subpar option, I'd go jump pack on him or try and find the points for njal, storm caller is a hard one to pull off and the +1 swings the odds into your favour. He's slower but he only needs to move quickly on turn 1 and can still advance if needed to try to keep up.

The Wolf priest could do with a jp rather than terminator because he cannot keep up with the wulfen otherwise, so he'd be useless after the turn he disembarked.

Overall I'd say you need to find more reliable long range fire support you need to be able do some damage to the enemy during turn one or you'll take too much damage on turn 2 and 3.

I think the ironpriest is excellent value, and if you're taking shield dreads he's practically a must. He can turn them into something very annoying and also support them with the armour of Russ if/when they make it.

As tigurius also mentioned the stormwolf will not survive, deploy it as defensively as you can and commit to using it to get your wulfen somewhere dangerous ASAP.

Sorry for the long post and good luck with your tourney.

[sturguard]

Thanks for the input guys. The game today was long and arduous, but we came out victorious and some of my units got experience. I now have a Grey Hunter squad that has +1 attacks and +1 WS, so they hit on 2+. This squad was my 5 man with pack leader and pfist. I think I am going to use points to add in a Wolfguard with pfist and storm shield. This unit might not have a ton of wounds, but man they will hit hard, especially near wulfen- with chainswords they would charge in with 4 attacks each, hitting on 2's, with 9 powerfist attacks, hitting on 3's.  All for around 100 pts.

 

One thing I did learn today was the change in the storm bolter! No wonder everyone has been talking about WG bikes with storm bolters.

 

What about 5 WG with jump packs, chainsword, storm bolter and storm shield? Deep Strike in for 20 shots, and 15 attacks on the charge with a 3+ invul. That doesnt seem to shabby to me.

 

I sure wish you could take a Battalion with Logan where instead of 3 troops, you could take 3 units of wolfguard, that would be so fun, you could take bikers, jump packs, terminators.

 

Do any of you play with wolfguard with jump packs and storm bolters?

[sturguard]

So how would you guys run my Rune Priest. So this is a campaign where you can get experience. My rune priest hasnt done much especially. I thought about getting rid of him, but destiny seems to want him to stay.

 

He has +1 to his invul save, +1 wound and recently got the ability that units within 9 inches of him can reroll one or both charge dice.

 

The way my force is evolving I seem to have 2 pinchers. The wulfen, a Grey Hunter squad that now has +1 WS and +1 attack, a Wolf Priest with Jump Pack and I am thinking of adding in a unit of 5 Wolfguard with jump packs, storm shields and storm bolters (one with a pfist). The second wave is Bjorn and my dreads. It would seem to me that the Rune Priest could simply walk behind Bjorn or I could put him on a bike (as I have a great converted model). If I upgraded one of my dreads to a Ven Dread with axe and shield, his ability would allow Bjorn and the Ven Dread to reroll their assaults- always nice eh? Do you guys like that idea?

[mercbat]

What about 5 WG with jump packs, chainsword, storm bolter and storm shield? Deep Strike in for 20 shots, and 15 attacks on the charge with a 3+ invul. That doesnt seem to shabby to me.

 

It had been FAQ’ed, if I remember correctly. No more three options for WG.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I've been enjoying a jump 0ack rune priest with an axe, armor of russ (if its allowed in your campaign) and fury of the wolf spirits. It makes for a great cc rune priest

[sturguard]

Merdat,

Battlescribe still has it as legal- not that, that's the end all, be all. However, if thats the case, drop the chainsword, stormbolter and shield works just fine for clearing small units.

[Kallas]

Rhinos plus screened characters are the backbone of all of my lists at the moment.

 

Three Rhinos, six units of Grey Hunters, and four HQs (Rune Priest, Wolf Lord and two WGBLs) gives you two Battalions for approximately 800pts. At 2000pts, that's a good base of CP with plenty of room for more flashy units like Bjorn, Wulfen, etc.

 

On Bjorn himself, it's pretty much been said already: he's a monster, but surprisingly fragile. Keep him with other units and he'll do a lot of work, but leave him on his own and he's likely to either get swarmed or hammered by powerful units.

 

He makes a good backfield melee presence to protect a firebase of, say, three Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts. That's 14 BS2+ (reroll 1s from Bjorn himself) Lascannons each turn, and he's going to rip up most things that can get to them quickly.

[jerrys]

Hey Kallas, I've been meaning to ask ...

In the variation that has all of the razorbacks rolling up the table ...

What do you think about putting Logan on a santa sled behind them, to give them rerolls to shooting hits? He also sort of fits in with the high-T mech target saturation, and he's relatively cheap.

I may try out a variation like this.

[Kallas]

Hey Kallas, I've been meaning to ask ...

In the variation that has all of the razorbacks rolling up the table ...

What do you think about putting Logan on a santa sled behind them, to give them rerolls to shooting hits? He also sort of fits in with the high-T mech target saturation, and he's relatively cheap.

I may try out a variation like this.

Try it!

 

I'm not sure Santa Grimnar is worthwhile, as he'd be an eligible target for enemies (being more than 9W) - you might be better served just running him on foot. Mv5" +d6 Advancing should be enough to keep him in range, at least, of the faster Razorbacks (and you can always move the Razorbacks less, if he rolls badly). That way he's untargetable, so can't be picked off early.

 

Oh, and I suppose you could run him as your Warlord, which would mean his bubble is 9", so wouldn't even need to advance to keep them in range (but would probably want to to avoid being left behind too much). If you did go for Warlord Grimnar, then I'd definitely suggest on foot, as otherwise your opponent can potentially get extra mileage out of removing him early.

 

That said, try it out. I don't own Grimnar (sled or otherwise, although I do have a TDA Captain I intend to use as Grimnar for my Griffons) and I don't yet have enough Razorbacks, but it's definitely worth a test.