GW buffing bolter rapid fire with WD beta-rules

[Corvus Fortis]

I just living this here. Guess which faction will be hit most?

 

https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

 

EDIT: I'm very sorry for my panic. I just read "all" insted of "any".

 

Actually, this is a buff. Especially for our Terminator models. 

 

Is it possible to renaim a thread?

[Dosjetka]

Yes, it is and it's very necessary in this case!

 

If you click on the "edit" button on your post, you can edit the title (on PC, you have to go to the "full edit" screen for that).

[Corvus Fortis]

Yes, it is and it's very necessary in this case!

 

If you click on the "edit" button on your post, you can edit the title (on PC, you have to go to the "full edit" screen for that).

 

Yes, thank you very much!

 

Of course, it is not instantly get GK to upper tiers, but this is an improvement for almost every unit.

 

Strikes can jump on objectives and hold them for awhile without losing firepower. LRC can slowly advance and shoot and SR do not need to be in point blank-range to unleash Hurricanes.

 

I'm also think about Deathwatch intercessors with bolt-rifles, which can hold objectives in deployment zone and provide help at cleaning screening chaff. 

[Captain Coolpants]

This is absolutely a buff. But kinda makes our special weapons eeeeven more redundant

[Corvus Fortis]

IDK, if something really changed for our specs. Psilencer is still more shots and d3 damage, incinerator is good when coming by transport and psycannon is worthless.

 

Maybe, beta-rules in WD will be more frequent now and some GK-special fixes will follow?

[Panzer]

I'd say for Strike Teams nothing really changed unless you want to use them to sit on objectives in your backfield. However Terminators now have a decent reach in case the opponent is running circles around them outside of 12".

[Waking Dreamer]

Internally, it makes our GKT closer in output efficiency to our Strike squad. With a constant 4 bolter shots per terminator model, that's equivalent to 2 strike models on the move and out of 12" range.

[John Thompson]

Am I reading this right; do Stormbolters now fire 8 shots per gun within 12"?

 

That would mean a 10 man PA unit, teleporting to within that range would fire 80 shots. With our stratagem boosting those to 80 S5 shots at -1 AP.

 

Is that correct, or am I missing something?

[Panzer]

Am I reading this right; do Stormbolters now fire 8 shots per gun within 12"?

 

That would mean a 10 man PA unit, teleporting to within that range would fire 80 shots. With our stratagem boosting those to 80 S5 shots at -1 AP.

 

Is that correct, or am I missing something?

No. The total amount of shots doesn't change. You just have two more ways how to double tap except just for being in half range.

[momerathe]

Am I reading this right; do Stormbolters now fire 8 shots per gun within 12"?

 

That would mean a 10 man PA unit, teleporting to within that range would fire 80 shots. With our stratagem boosting those to 80 S5 shots at -1 AP.

 

Is that correct, or am I missing something?

It *replaces* the existing rules for rapid fire - so basically, it just gives you more ways to get the bonus, rather than just being at half range. So stormbolter termis now fire 4 shots at all ranges, for example.

 

(It's easy to miss - I did when I first read it, and I've seen literally dozens of posts on dakka do the same)

 

It's nice, but I don't think it's game-changing (which is probably a good thing as tweaks go). I think the biggest beneficiary will be a unit of strikes sat in cover or on an objective.

[John Thompson]

Ah, now I see..  Thought it was too good to be true! 

[techsoldaten]

I've been testing the beta rule with my Black Legion army. Going to play a game with Grey Knights this week and will report back on how it turns out.

 

So far, my impressions are that Terminators and Bikes do better with the new rules. Moreso Bikes, they are priced just right for the 12 shots you get with the new rule. For Terminators, the net benefit seems to be to make them cheaper, you don't have to take combi-plasma all the time.

 

But these things don't matter for Grey Knights.

 

Thinking about what I can actually do with the beta rules for Bolters. I'm going to use a Land Raider Crusader and Stormraven in this game, the increased distance for Rapid Fire should make a difference. Since each is a transport, I will bring Strike Squads (instead of Interceptors) and disembark them into cover so they can stand and shoot the next turn. I might bring Dreads but I'm not sure how I would equip them.

 

Weighing the benefits of MSU Strikes / Interceptors over anything with Terminator armor just for the shooting. I was considering Paladins, but it occurred to me I wouldn't play them differently with the beta rules. I always deep strike them to just outside 9 inches, they're always in double tap range.

 

I was also considering Rhinos / Razorbacks until I noticed they can only take one Storm Bolter (Chaos Rhinos can take 2 combi-bolters.) This is something important to remember about the beta bolter rule, those pintle-mounted Storm Bolters are now a little nastier then they have been before. For Chaos, with 8 shots a piece, I've been picking forcing morale tests on weaker units all over the place. Wish Imperials had that option.

[techsoldaten]

So I tested the beta bolter rule with Grey Knights. Writing to share my thoughts.

 

My army consisted of the following:

 

- Draigo

- GMNDK with Greatsword, Incenerator, Psilencer

- 10 man Strike Squad

- 2 x Terminators with Psilencers

- Stormraven with Hurricane Bolters, Meltas, Assault Cannons

- Land Raider Crusader

 

... along with a Guard detachment consisting of:

 

- 2x Company Commanders

- 3x Infantry with Mortars

- Basilisk

- Heavy weapons team with 3x mortars

 

Giving me 13 CP for a game versus Nurgle Daemons. He had 2 detachments that each contained a GUO, a Herald, 3x 10-man Plaguebearer squads (so 60 of these guys total.) The differences were that one detachment had Beasts of Nurgle and the other had Drones. There were also a couple characters in the mix, I am unfamiliar with all the names.

 

To test the rule, I rolled separately for additional shots due to the beta bolter rule and tracked the results. Surprisingly, I won. My impressions are as follows:

 

1) No surprise, Hurricane Bolters are very powerful. I was rolling poorly all game, but my Storm Raven was able to do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule. The LRC was able to do 17 extra wounds but was usually targeting tougher or understrength units.

 

2) Part of why Hurricane Bolters are so powerful is the extra shots work almost as a force multiplier. For the Storm Raven, I was rolling the Storm Bolters last, after the melta and assault cannons did their work. The extra 3 wounds from the beta rule did in a GUO after everything else was resolved.

 

3) Strike Squads don't benefit from the beta bolter rule as much as you might expect. I combat squaded the unit and the rule only kicked in on one turn for one of them. When you think about moving, deploying, getting into cover, etc - there's a lot of things that have to happen before it matters. I had a hard time seeing how this would come into play in most people's games.

 

4) Terminators are better with the rule. Not debating about ppm, but I chose to go with them instead of Paladins for the extra shots. They deep struck next to the GMNDK to create an instant firebase deep within the enemy lines. The difference was I was able to keep it 20 inches away from the enemy, this meant an extra round of shooting before they charged. While bolter shots aren't terribly powerful (especially vs Nurgle,) they did chip away enough wounds for it to matter.

 

5) During the battle, I used Gate of Infinity on the LRC to clear an objective. Being able to put it out 24 inches meant my opponent did not have a way to charge me afterwards. So that was a nice improvement, but it also felt like just another temptation that could go wrong for GK. Let's say you position the LRC to kill a unit at distance - what do you have to target the next turn? I could see a lot of situations where the LRC suddenly becomes useless for a turn or two, you really need it shooting all the time.

 

Overall, the beta bolter rule is a nice buff for Grey Knights, but it matters most for Vehicles and Terminators. It made a difference in 2 situations:

 

- when I wanted to keep my distance and stay out of charge range

 

- when I was already laying out a ton of shots

 

From this perspective, it could affect army lists and make some units a little more attractive. Terminators are a lot more interesting with 20 shots all the time. LRCs are a lot more interesting when they can stay away from opponents and still maximize shots.

 

There were 2 things about the game that felt very different. The first was positioning, I was struggling less with decisions about where to put units. It wasn't as important to deep strike then charge with the GMNDK / Terminators, sitting around shooting for a turn was just fine because Smite + 40 Bolter Shots + the Psilencer were effective against infantry. I was able to get in 2 good rounds of shooting from the firebase before moving in for cleanup.

 

The other was using the AM allies. They made up the bulk of the models on the table and my opponent went after them right away with Beasts, Drones and a deep-struck GUO. This split his army, which meant my GKs only had to deal with units they were better at killing. While I wasn't facing a competitive list, it wasn't a bad one and the GK detachment did better than I would have expected.

 

Would love to hear people's thoughts.

[Biscuittzz]

Disregarding the bolter drill for a moment, how did you cope with Daemonic Incursion? Was it a factor in the game?

[techsoldaten]

Disregarding the bolter drill for a moment, how did you cope with Daemonic Incursion? Was it a factor in the game?

 

He brought back a Great Unclean One, which proceeded to eat a Basilisk and a Guard unit before the game ended. I didn't have a good answer for it.

 

But this didn't impact the game that much. The Guard had already done their job, the Beasts and most of the Drones were gone. The remaining Guard just kept their distance.

 

The Stratagem that had a bigger impact was Locus of Fecality, he rerolled FNP on 4 squads of Plaguebearers for a couple turns. It's part of the reason the LRC underperformed compared to the Storm Raven.

 

He also had Plague Banners on a couple squads and that almost cost me a squad of Terminators.

[Panzer]

 

1) No surprise, Hurricane Bolters are very powerful. I was rolling poorly all game, but my Storm Raven was able to do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule. The LRC was able to do 17 extra wounds but was usually targeting tougher or understrength units.

 

 

 

Just to clarify because so many people read it wrong initially, you didn't double the shots for each requirement met, right? A Hurricane Bolter will always only have 12 shots at best. It's just that it now doesn't necessarily have to be at half range to get those. Just asking because your numbers are confusing. What do you mean with "do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule" and "do 17 extra wounds"? Over the course of the game?

[Biscuittzz]

 

 

1) No surprise, Hurricane Bolters are very powerful. I was rolling poorly all game, but my Storm Raven was able to do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule. The LRC was able to do 17 extra wounds but was usually targeting tougher or understrength units.

 

 

 

Just to clarify because so many people read it wrong initially, you didn't double the shots for each requirement met, right? A Hurricane Bolter will always only have 12 shots at best. It's just that it now doesn't necessarily have to be at half range to get those. Just asking because your numbers are confusing. What do you mean with "do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule" and "do 17 extra wounds"? Over the course of the game?

 

 

The way I read what techsoldaten has written is that the beta bolter rules garnered him that many additional wounds across the entirety of the game when compared to having no beta rules.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

 

1) No surprise, Hurricane Bolters are very powerful. I was rolling poorly all game, but my Storm Raven was able to do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule. The LRC was able to do 17 extra wounds but was usually targeting tougher or understrength units.

 

 

 

Just to clarify because so many people read it wrong initially, you didn't double the shots for each requirement met, right? A Hurricane Bolter will always only have 12 shots at best. It's just that it now doesn't necessarily have to be at half range to get those. Just asking because your numbers are confusing. What do you mean with "do additional 32 wounds with the beta rule" and "do 17 extra wounds"? Over the course of the game?

 

 

The way I read what techsoldaten has written is that the beta bolter rules garnered him that many additional wounds across the entirety of the game when compared to having no beta rules.

 

 

Any time I talk about extra wounds, it's over the course of the game. I roll separately for the extra shots when the beta bolter rule kicks in and record them for each unit on an index card.

 

The total extra wounds scored in this game were:

 

Draigo - 1

Strike - 0

Terminator 1 - 7

Terminator 2 - 9

Storm Raven - 33

LRC - 17

 

... for a total of 67 extra wounds. There's a few ways to think about the significance of these numbers.

 

- The majority of extra wounds came from Vehicles with Hurricane Bolters.

 

- The extra wounds are greater than the number of Plaguebearers on the board.

 

- The extra wounds are greater than the number of wounds on both GUOs and Heralds (even when you account for one GUO coming back via Daemonic Incursion.)

 

- Auras impacted these totals. Guessing, but the total would have been about 20% lower without rerolls from Draigo and the GMNDK.

 

So there are some reasons for optimism. Something to add, all of these wounds came at 12+ inches. Having greater freedom to position units meant things like the LRC were not getting tied up. This is probably the most important aspect of the rule to consider.

 

That said, there are good reasons not to use this result to draw conclusions about the beta bolter rule or how it affects Grey Knights.

 

- It's a single game against an army without much AV.

 

- The presence of the Guard detachment split my opponent's forces.

 

- Had the Storm Raven gone down, that total would have been cut in half.

 

A question I'm asking: were the SR and the LRC actually a good idea? Eldar / Knights / Ad Mech / Tzeentch Daemons would have done better against them. For similar points, I could have had 3 more squads of Terminators (and maybe an Apothecary.)

 

If the offensive output of those Terminators was equal to those used in this game, that's about -25 extra bolter wounds, which is around as much as what I would lose if something killed the LRC or the SR outright turn one. I'd gain more psychic offense, deep strike, and the ability to take cover.

 

Things to think about. Need more data...

[Panzer]

I assumend so but it wasn't clear so I decided to better ask about it.