Bolter Discipline: Its official!

[Lemondish]

Edit: In my opinion, they need to nerf SS up to 3-4 pts, and not let this bolter rule stick or at least change it a bit. Maybe only give the double tap to non-PA marines (terms, bikers, vehicles), or maybe make it -1 to hit if it's over half the rapid fire range.

I'd be more inclined to simply make storm shields only usable with melee weapons, like in Kill Team.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why ?

[BrotherAetherick]

RAW it doesn't look like terminators and bikers get the always rapid fire benefit when embedded in veteran kill teams (as they lack those specific keywords, it's only for determining transport slots).

 

So I don't think this changes much honestly, I like to keep my veterans moving and taking up space/charging units they can bully.

 

It does make 90 point rapid fire intercessors waaaaay more appealing however.

[Beams]

Even with better offensive output, a marine is still a marine. It's a T4 3+ save (shield or not)!

Is it though? A 2+/3++ sitting in cover 30" away getting 4 shots at Str 4 Ap -1 and then when they get closer, you can switch to AP -2 or always wounds on 2, depending on what's better. Your outside of most things ranges at that point.

[Lemondish]

RAW it doesn't look like terminators and bikers get the always rapid fire benefit when embedded in veteran kill teams (as they lack those specific keywords, it's only for determining transport slots).

 

So I don't think this changes much honestly, I like to keep my veterans moving and taking up space/charging units they can bully.

 

It does make 90 point rapid fire intercessors waaaaay more appealing however.

Correct. But separate bike and Terminator units will benefit. Intercessors don't actually get much compared to vets.

 

Could go with a backfield Vet unit with double the shots, 3++, and invalidates 2 damage weapons all for 10 points more. 4 shots at 30" with AP -1 is King.

 

Honestly can't see any reason to go with Primaris for DW at all now with 2 point storm shields and Bolter Discipline.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply to bikers and terms in vet squads.

[Qui-Gon]

Keywords. Terminators and Bikers in Veteran units do not have the Terminator and Biker keywords for any reason other than transport capacity. Thus, they don't benefit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okay I just run one term per vet squad and generally deep strike them so I don’t feel like I’m losing anything tbh.

[BrotherAetherick]

 

Correct. But separate bike and Terminator units will benefit. Intercessors don't actually get much compared to vets.

 

Could go with a backfield Vet unit with double the shots, 3++, and invalidates 2 damage weapons all for 10 points more. 4 shots at 30" with AP -1 is King.

 

Honestly can't see any reason to go with Primaris for DW at all now with 2 point storm shields and Bolter Discipline.

 

 

It depends. There are some niche situations that a primaris back field is superior (and cheaper).

 

If all you face is disintegrater cannons, avenger gatling cannons, heavy burst cannons, or leman russ executioners then yea primaris are awful.

 

Hellfire at -1 has some niches. riptides, nid MC's with the always cover saves, DPs, custodes jetbikes. All of these are wounded on 5+ from stormbolters, unless you hellfire, then most of these targets have a 2+ save to negate your wounds.

[Mr4Minutes]

Keywords. Terminators and Bikers in Veteran units do not have the Terminator and Biker keywords for any reason other than transport capacity. Thus, they don't benefit.

This is kind of easy to fix with talking to your opponent first though. I don’t drive my bikes through walls or into the second story of ruins. Termies and bikes get to double tap at 24”.

 

Of course they may want to treat the whole unit as having the fly keyword if it contains VV.

 

Really wish they’d faq the data sheet to sort the whole thing out.

[Qui-Gon]

 

Keywords. Terminators and Bikers in Veteran units do not have the Terminator and Biker keywords for any reason other than transport capacity. Thus, they don't benefit.

This is kind of easy to fix with talking to your opponent first though. I don’t drive my bikes through walls or into the second story of ruins. Termies and bikes get to double tap at 24”.

 

Of course they may want to treat the whole unit as having the fly keyword if it contains VV.

 

Really wish they’d faq the data sheet to sort the whole thing out.

 

 

Truthfully, it doesn't matter. Bolter discipline only applies if you have the keyword, and the models do not have the necessary keywords when in a Veteran unit, period the end.

 

And there is no need to change the datasheet. It is written clearly enough and it doesn't need it. There is good, and there is bad. Crying that you can't have your cake and eat it too isn't going to change things.

 

Do you want obsec? Excellent, but you won't benefit completely from Bolter Discipline

Do you want bolter discipline? Excellent, but you won't be obsec.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think it could have been an oversight but to me it’s not a big deal.

[Mr4Minutes]

I’m just tying this back into the older data sheet argument. Data sheet as written, I can take 5 bikes in kill team, combat squad them into a group of their own and drive them through walls and into the third story of a ruin because, as you said, rules as written, they do not have the bike keyword, but instead have the infantry one. That’s not the way bikes have been intended to be used.

 

It becomes the same argument for the Bolter Discipline rule. And at this point I still think an faq explaining it would be helpful.

It’s not about eating cake and being able to do everything, it’s about getting the rules as intended correct so your opponent doesn’t feel like you’re getting one over on them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I concur with you and it’s worth looking at the RAI POV.

[our_baz]

RAW. "The firing model is terminator, biker, centurian or vehicle." In my opinion it would apply to mixed vets, as there is no mention of requiring a specific keyword only that the model be terminator etc etc. In a game I wouldn't have any issue with an opponent using this beta for mixed vet squads.

[Moostick]

It's been established that the noticeable bolded text refers to <keywords>.

 

As far as the ruling on this and the biker bit goes (which this forum discussed about in detail in the past), it really comes down to the old saying of "passing your own level", which is something like if you can handle the self shame.

 

Now I'm not saying using the interpretation that benefits oneself the most is shameful in itself, as everyone has a different level in sense of shame and it would depend on each individual.

 

Personally, I would never do the bike thing myself, and I would not prevent my opponent from doing so. If anyone thinks a bike climbing a wall is reasonable even if it's technically allowed, all the power to them. Same goes for anything else up for interpretation.

[Lemondish]

RAW. "The firing model is terminator, biker, centurian or vehicle." In my opinion it would apply to mixed vets, as there is no mention of requiring a specific keyword only that the model be terminator etc etc. In a game I wouldn't have any issue with an opponent using this beta for mixed vet squads.

It's using keywords, so no.

[Chris521]

I expect that the whole terminator bike thing is an oversight that will be put in an faq.  It wouldn't exactly be surprising that they would forget about something like that.

[Qui-Gon]

Personally? The Codex has been out since last year May. It's had multiple situations where if it was meant to be FAQed, it would have been. I surmise that from the lack of change, it is operating as intended.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you want to do it then discuss it with your opponent before the game. I don’t think it’s OP.

[vigitant]

Thought I'd weigh in a bit.
I think this is pretty damn strong and another cookie we get as GW tries desperately to make Astartes bolter grunts playable and keeps buffing DW while they do.

Its not strong so much because it lets you fire rapid fire more consistently or often, really.  It's strong because it gives us the option in some matchups to force the engage.  I suspect its locked us in as a pretty damn scary orc counter.  Stem the green tide prevents da jump from gettin value, and the new rule means we can double our shots from T1, and they have to rush us.  unlike most armies, we DO have the firepower to wipe 200 T4 bodies off the board.

Being able to agress or gunline as needed is pretty damn strong, and being able to do it with 3++/2+ variable saves is insane, especially in a faction with such insanely strong charater options.

Oddly enough it means my chaplain dreadnaughts get their 4 storm bolter shots at 24, which is neat.

[BrotherAetherick]

It's a serious bummer DW can't take bike HQ's. 8 shot captains with SIA would have been so good.

[Krom4095]

I suggest playing a few quality games before potentially overreacting & sounding the OP horn. And maybe it's just me, but so what if DW becomes one of the power factions? Someone has to be tops, and no SM factions currently occupy those few spots. I say it's about damn time.

Just my honest opinion and thoughts when I see people expressing what I think is premature fear or guilt at their favorite faction suddenly getting much better. Enjoy it while it lasts, and if it makes you the top dog, relish in your enemies' envy & hate. Xenos scum deserve a powerful DW as a respectable and terrifying foe.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well said Krom.

[Syward]

I'm eager to try this out on a 5 man Terminator Sqaud - 20 shots of SIA regardless of range/movement sounds pretty  fun. Add in a CML or two and it could be a nice "distraction carnifex" while racking up a body count. I'm going to try it in my next game. I happen to have an unused squad of TDA & the FW TDA Capt and 2x CML sitting in my bits box.