Bolter Discipline: Its official!

[noigrim]

Nice GK buff

[angrom]

@nolgrim  Not even close.

As always what seems to benefit GK  is just smoke.

As GK termi and Paladin are overcosted most people are going for the strike spam so they already had the 2* shots at short range when deep striking

and even if you were using them they are intended to charge the very turn they come from reserve with first to the fray so will not really benefit from it in melee and the short amount of time it will be useful does not make up for the cost.

 

The only case scenario where this rule will be welcomed is if you suddenly start to play a land rider crusader (Probably this change will push some players in that direction)

and/or if you play your strike squads as bottom of table campers (but at 21 pts per model you just better off getting some deathwatch kill team for that role.)

 

In my opinion the only ones benefiting from that are deathwatch, tzench termi (they didn't really need a buff) and power armored glorified Tau (Aka primaris SM) deployment zone campers.

 

There is a good idea behind this bolter change but it is really badly calculated.

It would have been probably easier, more widely useful and fluff to give a rule such as "when advancing every bolt weapon (including heavies such as heavy bolter and autocannon) are considered as assault weapon and so can shoot when advancing with a -1 to hit unless the weapon was already Assault (storm) in that case they do not suffer the -1 to hit malus" It would have fitted SM back to their original role (as assault unit) rather than pushing them further into a role of armored guardsmen playing bottom of table. 

[Xisor]

All this does is reflect, to me, the absurdity of DW in 8th Edition. In an era of auras, they still pushed ahead (read: made zero effort other than literal translation from 7th) and went with mixed squads.

 

It's not intuitive, nor is it comfortable within the rules.

 

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and storm shields drive that home for me, doubly.

[anarchistscourge]

Something I don't think any one has considered (unlikely as it is) is that GW did actually realize what they were doing for DW with the Beta rule and went ahead anyway. SM are the poster boys and whether or not they are powerful will always sell, this could be their way of trying to placate SM players while keeping DW more powerful (potentially because they just want to keep DW at a higher tier, or to sell more models).

I find it doubtful, but there is that possibility.

[Vel'Cona]

Keep the discussion to how this rule affects DW only, brothers.  GK discussions go in the appropriate subforum.

[Mr4Minutes]

These rules make our army better, and help us occupy space in the competitive meta, and we’re against it why?

 

It’s still bolter fire, so it has its limitations. We’re still probably DS into rapid fire range to get at the bigger threats anyways.

 

It does boost damage output at our 13-24” range, but even that depends on what units your taking and objectives you need.

 

This isn’t making DeathWatch a Tau or guard gun line. Just opening up our options a little, which is a good thing.

[vigitant]

I'm reminded of a grand old story from back when I led Ork WAAAGH's back in 5th ed.  (dont worry, Vel'Cona, I'm getting back on topic. I hope.)

I had a guy who wanted to fight my orcs.  He was playing 'nids, and I brought my standard TAC fun list.  I always preferred shoota boys, and the back bone of my list was 120 shoota boys.
My nid opponent had tailored his list to the hilt.  he had brought a list designed to annhilate orcs in melee.  genestealers galore.  hardly a single gun to be found.

He was very confused when I looked at his oncoming horde, moved back 6", and hit him with the dakka.
I spent the game sacrificing speedbump killa kans while i shot him to pieces with my kiting greenskins.

Morale of the story:   while this new rule for DW doesnt make us a good gunline army, it means we become a scary gunline army to anyone who has trouble dealing with that tactic.

[Lemondish]

These rules make our army better, and help us occupy space in the competitive meta, and we’re against it why?

 

It’s still bolter fire, so it has its limitations. We’re still probably DS into rapid fire range to get at the bigger threats anyways.

 

It does boost damage output at our 13-24” range, but even that depends on what units your taking and objectives you need.

 

This isn’t making DeathWatch a Tau or guard gun line. Just opening up our options a little, which is a good thing.

Funny enough - saw a game played against a Tau gunline with SB/SS vet squads in cover. Vets with storm bolters parked in ruins are so good it isn't even funny. I have to admit that my initial impression had me thinking "but we already have the Stalker for that job, and this is a buff to non mixed Intercessors not so much vets, which will just deep strike anyway."

 

OH BOY was I 100% wrong about that.

 

The opponent had Tau in a 1500 point game, so initially he was totally happy with that setup. Until turn 1, when a grand total of one terminator and a half died to his fire warriors and broadsides, then the Deathwatch returned fire at 30" range and wiped 25 fire warriors and most of the drones on the field.

 

Then turn 2 happened, and 2 commanders and 6 crisis suits killed 4 guys with storm shields. Then the Deathwatch returned fire and charged and killed every single one of them.

 

By turn 4, the Tau were tabled and the Deathwatch had lost one dreadnought, 6 stormshields and 2 terminators, in a straight up static gunline fight against Tau at mostly 30" range.

 

Primaris ain't got nothing on 4 shots from 30", 3++, and 4 wounds of 2+ to chew through. This adds a valuable new capability to the storm bolter Vet squad - hanging back to deliver the pain, away from the massed attrition fire and rapid fire plasma.

[Beams]

The scary thing, for me, about SSSB vets is they have a threat range of 30" with 4 shots a piece at AP -1. If deployed correctly, against any army that has to move close to leverage firepower, you have a couple turns where you are definitely outshooting them, and have a 2+/3++.

 

A squad of 5 is 100 pts, and puts out 20 shots so long as it doesn't move. That's 5 pts a shot at 30".

 

Basic siisters are 9 pts a shot at 24",

 

Stormbolter dominions are 6 pts a shot at 24"

 

Guard is 4 pts a shot at 24", with significantly less powerful shots.

 

So while there's definitely caveats on how you achieve that, the option is going to be terrifying if utilized well, and can really, really hurt anyone who isn't prepped for it.

[Black Knight]

Although I like that we have been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really think they should make the Storm Bolter Assault 3 or 4 and 18 inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

 

Terminators are supposedly short range close quarter boarding action troops. Not long range snipers

 

Stalker 30, 2x Heavy, maybe even giving them the Sniper rule if they didn't move.

Bolter 24, 2x Rapid.

Storm 18, 3x or 4x Assault.

 

But even if this new rule feels like a band aid rather than a redesign that Marines need, I do like the fact that our normal troops are now scaring people, like they should be.

[Syward]

Although I like that we have been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really think they should make the Storm Bolter Assault 3 or 4 and 18 inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

 

To me it makes perfect sense that a Storm Bolter is Rapid Fire 2. After all, isn't a Storm Bolter essentially just two normal Bolters joined together so that both can fire at the same time?

 

Personally I really like the idea of this rule and that it's broad enough to cover Storm Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I can't wait to try it out in my next game. It's even got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, like Terminators, which IMO is a good thing as it will make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more diverse. 

[Lemondish]

 

 

Although I like that we have been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really think they should make the Storm Bolter Assault 3 or 4 and 18 inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

To me it makes perfect sense that a Storm Bolter is Rapid Fire 2. After all, isn't a Storm Bolter essentially just two normal Bolters joined together so that both can fire at the same time?

 

Personally I really like the idea of this rule and that it's broad enough to cover Storm Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I can't wait to try it out in my next game. It's even got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, like Terminators, which IMO is a good thing as it will make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more diverse.

I mean, that's what it looks like, but you could easily adjust its profile to reflect it's bulky, unwieldy nature and reduced barrel length.

[Black Knight]

 

 

Although I like that we have been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really think they should make the Storm Bolter Assault 3 or 4 and 18 inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

To me it makes perfect sense that a Storm Bolter is Rapid Fire 2. After all, isn't a Storm Bolter essentially just two normal Bolters joined together so that both can fire at the same time?

 

Personally I really like the idea of this rule and that it's broad enough to cover Storm Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I can't wait to try it out in my next game. It's even got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, like Terminators, which IMO is a good thing as it will make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more diverse.

I mean, that's what it looks like, but you could easily adjust its profile to reflect it's bulky, unwieldy nature and reduced barrel length.

 

 

That's what I meant, its more like a bolter with a sawn off barrel. Also I think that's why it isn't normal loadout because of the recoil, which is removed with the Terminator plate.

[Raven1]

All this does is reflect, to me, the absurdity of DW in 8th Edition. In an era of auras, they still pushed ahead (read: made zero effort other than literal translation from 7th) and went with mixed squads.

 

It's not intuitive, nor is it comfortable within the rules.

 

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and storm shields drive that home for me, doubly.

I'm not sure that DW are all that strong tbh. Recently a player did take 2nd in a big tournament but the majority of his points were in Astra Militarum and specialist detachments from Vigilius. So I personally wouldn't go to crazy about DW being OP at the moment. LVO might tell a different tell, but a lot of the big players are trying Orks. Power Armor is safely still lackluster.

[Lemondish]

 

All this does is reflect, to me, the absurdity of DW in 8th Edition. In an era of auras, they still pushed ahead (read: made zero effort other than literal translation from 7th) and went with mixed squads.

 

It's not intuitive, nor is it comfortable within the rules.

 

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and storm shields drive that home for me, doubly.

I'm not sure that DW are all that strong tbh. Recently a player did take 2nd in a big tournament but the majority of his points were in Astra Militarum and specialist detachments from Vigilius. So I personally wouldn't go to crazy about DW being OP at the moment. LVO might tell a different tell, but a lot of the big players are trying Orks. Power Armor is safely still lackluster.

 

 

I think that ultimately depends on how one subjectively determines what type of performance they expect to be viable out of a 'deathwatch army'. This is a specialist force with a glaring weakness against vehicles and all of the downsides that come with being a low model count force in the current meta shackled to a limited selection of elite, expensive units. Even at their best Deathwatch cannot provide effective anti-tank, screening, or board control, and a large part of that is due to the way the army is designed. At the competitive level, it will require you to play to the mission above all else, and you will find match ups you cannot overcome. This is equally an issue with the way the missions and tournament structures are designed since a large portion of the meta is defined by a booklet of house rules. 

 

Soup will be guaranteed for Deathwatch for the foreseeable future. That should not affect their capability in the mind of the players. Custodes are in the same boat - they will never be a mono-force. 

[Prot]

Well this has me wanting to try my Terminators again.

 

So what I'm thinking is not mixing up squads as much and using my "terminator points" for a true squad of my favorite loadout which is pretty vanilla but has a few Melta-Fists.  Add in my Termie Captain with melta Fist (I'm sorry, I know Jump Pack Captain is more efficient but it was so hard for me to get the limited store opening model, I want to use him as much as possible.). The Termie Captain sometimes gets Bane Bolts , but now it would be 4 shots at 24" so I'm looking forward to trying that!

 

I wish this worked for stuff like Reiver squad fire which is fairly lethargic, but I'm not going to complain!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Check the batreps on Twisted Dice Prot... they use terminator Cpts and terminators to full effect.

[Syward]

Well this has me wanting to try my Terminators again.

 

So what I'm thinking is not mixing up squads as much and using my "terminator points" for a true squad of my favorite loadout which is pretty vanilla but has a few Melta-Fists.  Add in my Termie Captain with melta Fist (I'm sorry, I know Jump Pack Captain is more efficient but it was so hard for me to get the limited store opening model, I want to use him as much as possible.). The Termie Captain sometimes gets Bane Bolts , but now it would be 4 shots at 24" so I'm looking forward to trying that!

 

I wish this worked for stuff like Reiver squad fire which is fairly lethargic, but I'm not going to complain!

 

I'm with you on adding full Terminator Squads to my list. I'm going to add two TDA captains, one with TH & SB + Banebolts and the other with SS & SB. I'm going to add two TDA squads, one w/Melta-Fists & SB and the other with SB, and two CML.

 

The TDA capt w/SS & SB is going to sit back w/the CML squad & my TLLC/ML Ven Dreads while the TH & SB TDA capt is going to deep strike w/the Melta-Fist TDA squad & my two Intercessor/Hellblaster Fortis KTs and hopefully really mess some things up.