Beta Bolters

[Brother Worsey]

Am I reading that right? Rapid Fire applies if any one of:

 

1. <half range; or

2. remained stationary; or

3. model is a biker/termie/centurion/vehicle

 

So condition 2 & 3 is rapid fire at full range? RW bikes and DT just got beta buffed as vehicles then - might have to give that a whirl and let them have some positive feedback.

[Dosjetka]

Aye, that is correct. :tu:

[Hantheman]

Dark Talons are great(er) now. Intercessors can be left backfield un-supported and be annoying.

 

Ravenwing bikers can be safe from charging. All in all. Great.

 

If you want competitive take a deathwatch battlion and watch things die

[HandsWithLegs]

might help deathwing as well, 4 shots a piece is fairly nasty. Actually using belial's warlord trait might be fun now as well

[JJD]

Am I reading that right? Rapid Fire applies if any one of:

 

1. <half range; or

2. remained stationary; or

3. model is a biker/termie/centurion/vehicle

 

So condition 2 & 3 is rapid fire at full range? RW bikes and DT just got beta buffed as vehicles then - might have to give that a whirl and let them have some positive feedback.

That isn’t how I read it. It says if any of the 3 conditions apply you double the shots.

 

Take a terminator with a rapid fire 2 storm bolter

Normally at 24inches its two shots

Now option 3 applies so at 24 inches it 4 shots

Normally at 12 inches it’s rapid fire range 4 shots

Now option 1 and 3 apply on top of rapid fire so it’s 8 shots each.

[jbaeza94]

 

Am I reading that right? Rapid Fire applies if any one of:

 

1. <half range; or

2. remained stationary; or

3. model is a biker/termie/centurion/vehicle

 

So condition 2 & 3 is rapid fire at full range? RW bikes and DT just got beta buffed as vehicles then - might have to give that a whirl and let them have some positive feedback.

That isn’t how I read it. It says if any of the 3 conditions apply you double the shots.

 

Take a terminator with a rapid fire 2 storm bolter

Normally at 24inches its two shots

Now option 3 applies so at 24 inches it 4 shots

Normally at 12 inches it’s rapid fire range 4 shots

Now option 1 and 3 apply on top of rapid fire so it’s 8 shots each.

On fb they have cleared it up to be only 1 buff, so no stacking. Dw and rw always shoot 4.

[JJD]

I missed the bit where this rules replaces rapid fire.

 

It’s still good for bikes and back field intercessors I guess. Not quite as pee your pants exciting as I thought.

[jbaeza94]

It would be huge if the rapid fire stacked!

 

The winners i think are vehicles, terminators, and bikes. Their fire power literally doubled in all cases rather than only within half range. Lrc firing 24 shots always? Yes please!

 

I can see deepstriking being more survivable with better positioning

[JJD]

I can see deepstriking being more survivable with better positioning

I can see what you're thinking but a lot of a terminators points are in its power fist so you still want to be up close and personal as soon as possible.

 

Bikes are the bigger winner as you don’t want them in combat.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It's a great start, but until our armour piercing explosive rockets get an AP adjustment and or do more damage they're still just bolter shots.

 

130 points of Tacticals is killing about 35points of GEQ or Nurglescreens  per turn, not really the shock troops of the future weapon. Having an extra turn at full shooting is nice but won't really change much, about 20 points of said screens in the 13-24" zone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll take anything in the Lions name, but Bolters are still meh in my meta. I am going to use my bikes more now and I'll paint up my DT; prolly not the DW though, their efficiency speed and damage output is still rubbish.

 

I just checked my glass, the damned thing was half empty :P

[Hantheman]

Dark Talon is the biggest winner. 24 inch range, 24 shots. Can now stay in bubble a lot easier and away from characters with fly keyword. In reaility it's 18 inch as you want to shoot the rift cannon, but it does make a big difference. Can fly towards a tank and clear chaff further away to allow for flanking easier

[Pvnisher]

Back in the day I loved running crusaders with dakka banner seems that’s going to make a comeback.

[Skorp]

Makes me want to play against some orksies

[MaxB]

I really like the look of this for RW Bike squads! Having to jump into 12" range to get max efficiency always means I'm picking them up next turn or getting locked in combat. And yeah Dark Talons will love this rule.

 

I think for infantry it's just ok as having to stay still is very situational. Except for Intercessors maybe - 30" range plus the -1AP is pretty tasty.

[Orkinstein]

I found a very interesting thing that Fallen don't have either keyword... 

[G8Keeper]

It's a great start, but until our armour piercing explosive rockets get an AP adjustment and or do more damage they're still just bolter shots.

 

130 points of Tacticals is killing about 35points of GEQ or Nurglescreens  per turn, not really the shock troops of the future weapon. Having an extra turn at full shooting is nice but won't really change much, about 20 points of said screens in the 13-24" zone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll take anything in the Lions name, but Bolters are still meh in my meta. I am going to use my bikes more now and I'll paint up my DT; prolly not the DW though, their efficiency speed and damage output is still rubbish.

 

I just checked my glass, the damned thing was half empty

 

 

I don't think the glass exists does it 

 

These seem like solid changes, makes Marines that much better than anything else carrying a Bolter.  The big thing for me is it's free, put it alongside the points drops in chapter approved and I think I may just be able to field tactical squads again, albeit in horde mode.

 

DW with Belial and DWA just became more tactical, you now can potentially have 40x2 Bolter shots out to 24" (still needs a CP drop imho), that's 31.5 GEQ or 11.8 MEQ I think, whilst remaining out of tarpit and rapid fire range.

[BlackTriton]

Interesting change, although not world changing.

 

Use to be that a tac squad had inferior firepower than guardsmen at any range against any target.

 

Now, in a points per wounds with no buff, guard / tac / intercessor are all about on par at > 12"

 

Then compare increased survivability of marine vs increased damage of the guard with orders and/or close range. It looks like a much better balance to me.

 

Basic marine use to be some of the worst deal when purchasing fire power, now can be on par with the other if they do not move.

 

The change to terminator / bike mostly bring versatility, these units did not have any difficulty in getting to half range.

 

Change to vehicule is a big bonus to some fringe cases, rhino, darkTalon and maybe repulsor are big winners.

[Knight Angels]

why not making bolters -1 ap? why is the solution even more Dakka?

 

tacticals need a buff.... and dont get anything from this.... 

close combat needs a buff... and now you can stand 24'' away with your bikers/flyers/landraiders und dakkadakka the hell out of the enemy while staying out of charge range.

 

c'mon GW   

[Skorp]

Not sure how significant it is, but it also improves 10 man dev squads, the ablative wounds can do more now than just be ablative wounds. Generally they weren't expected to move already. 

 

Minimum five man bolter scout squads also get a little better at camping objectives. Just a little. 

[Hantheman]

why not making bolters -1 ap? why is the solution even more Dakka?

 

tacticals need a buff.... and dont get anything from this.... 

close combat needs a buff... and now you can stand 24'' away with your bikers/flyers/landraiders und dakkadakka the hell out of the enemy while staying out of charge range.

 

c'mon GW  

 

Yeah, they should make tacticals -1 base, -2 on wound of 6. But only in tactical squads, not dev squads

[domsto]

 

Yeah, they should make tacticals -1 base, -2 on wound of 6. But only in tactical squads, not dev squads

 

This could backfire pretty heavy.

Marines are already way to easy to kill, giving them Ap-1 or even Ap-2 will only make MEQ vs MEQ games pretty fast and unfunny while the problem against Hords remain.

So upping the amoung of shoots they can pop out seems to me the better way to go.

[Angel of Solitude]

So I had my first game with this last night, and I can say that the new rules made a significant difference for me playing against Astra Militarum.

 

First, as others have said already, bikers are the real big winners here. Last night I ran a squad of 6 supported by Talon Master / Sammael, and it was glorious firing off 24 bolter shots with re-rolls each turn! My opponent had his troops mostly camped out in buildings, and this is where the Talon Master's ignore cover rule is just ridiculous!

 

I had been deliberating whether or not to try a list with a Deathwing Assault blob instead, but on balance, I think I prefer bikers because (a) T5, (b) potential 4++, © ignore cover, (d) first turn impact, (e) potential 4++, and (f) 1 CP for SotR vs 3 CP for max DWA.

 

The next major benefit of this rule is intercessors. A 5 man squad camping on an objective with a 10-shot, 30" reach with AP-1 and re-roll 1's to hit and wound (Lt) is very effective. 2 wounds a piece makes them nice and survivable. Likewise with scouts...again, a 5-man squad can forward deploy on an objective and they now have a 10-shot 24" reach with re-roll 1's to hit.

 

To clarify - combined with Intractable, these beta rules make us very capable of clearing chaff at distance.

 

Dark Talons were a bit mixed for me. Yes, you get 24 shots at 24", but the rift cannon only has an 18" reach...I missed out last night on positioning, but hey - there's always the next game!

 

One final lesson from my game last night - Interrogator Chaplains are a bit lacking in combat with only 3 attacks :(

[cernunnos]

After initial positivity, I am not sure this changes a great deal for me. It is so easy to kill marines that I had switched to giving my tacticals transports and only really firing them in rapid fire range anyway. Deathwing I want to drop close enough to be able to charge, while my ravenwing still want to be in rapid fire range for their plasma guns.

 

The biggest winners seem dark talons and crusaders which I don’t run at the moment.

 

It is a minor boost though. My extra bodies for my devastators will do more, as will my bolter scouts. Also as the targets for power fists and storm bolters are normally different it opens up more targeting options for the deathwing.

[Solrac]

I think a lot of people are underestimating just HOW this benefits Terminators so much.

 

Yes Terminators want to be up close because of their Fists. But if you come up against a highly mobile army where they just keep your terminators at a distance because Terminators are slow, this is where the Beta Bolter rule comes into play. They can't just be ignored anymore because they are now throwing a decent amount of dice at you every turn. And those fast armies usually have below T8 vehicles where mass bolter shots work wonders.

 

The extra range for the full amount of shots also means you can blast those key infantry or light vehicle units at full effect when a smart opponent has placed chaff correctly so you'll drop in outside 12" range.

[Berzul]

Im playing a "storm the castle" ste game against Tyranids today. 1750 points. He is bringing a horde to try and outrun my position.

 

I am bringing 30 tacticals with Bolters, as a gunline, supported by vehicles and devastators for heavy weapons.

 

Then 10 Bikes (8 plus an attack bike) as a charge squad, with Storm Bolter on the Sgt., and 10 Terminators with fists and storm bolters to drop down and DWA for 80 shots.

 

Im expecting gaunts, genestealers, harpies, a brood lord, venomthropes and those guys with the spore cannons.

 

I want to see how these new rules work for overwhelming them with shots.

 

... Ill share my results.