Bolter Drill

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

I do like that it makes CSM troops more valuable since this benefit isn't granted to cultists. The fact that bikes always get it seems too much to me though. I think they should make CSM troops and tac marines always have it in place of bikes. It would make them more viable as troops. Also, it would be nice to see FALLEN gain the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES keywords so that they would benefit as well and also become usable in a dettachment that is not pure FALLEN.

 

 

Honestly, bikes needed something too, my white scars haven't even seen the battlefield in 8th edition.  I do agree that Fallen should also have the rule, especially as their other rules incentivize camping. 

 

Already emailed GW about Fallen, including about giving them both keywords so that they could use a decent selection of stratagems. Sad that they're in the CSM book and can't really use any of those. 

[Trevak Dal]

It's almost like (for terminators, centurions, bikes and vehicles) relentless combined with salvo without the negative effects of salvo for non relentless models but only for bolt weapons.

 

I think a modern redesign of terminators would come stock with heavy bolters, (primary option being heavy flamers, with special weapons being multimeltas and plasma cannons) and rules to mitigate the heavy -1 bs to move and shoot (purple prose relentless) with dreads having the Lascannons, twin assault cannons, multishot missile launchers etc with storm bolters/Combi bolters being the best a power armored sized guy could get outside of heavy or special weapons.

 

Terminators should be for Astartes as crisis suits are for Tau.

 

And drop pods that allow you to deploy closer than 9" would justify their price.

[Doom Herald]

The issue I have with bikes is their speed coupled with the fact that they would gain double shots at 24" even after moving. 14" move plus 24" range. This puts a 3 man squad at 16 shots with a threat range of 38" and a 9 man squad at 40 shots, with a combi on the champ. From a narrative standpoint, I don't see why being on a bike, traveling faster than on foot would give you the ability to get more shots off. If anything, it should make it harder.

 

Regardless of bikes having it though, I would really like to see the basic marine troops have this rule, even after moving. This would be a really good way to encourage their usage.

[ChazSexington]

Alpha Legion Chosen with Combi-Bolters will be great objective campers. More resilient than other Legion units due the -1 to-hit and get 4 shots per model at 24" when stationary. Make them Slaanesh to turn it up to 8 shots per model at 24" and/or give them additional resilience via Delightful Agonies (you could also use Terminators instead but that would be quite a bit more expensive).

 

I'm honestly looking at Alpha Legion Plague Marines (not competitively). It'd be nice to have Miasma of Pestilence on them for a -2 to hit. All I'd need to do is figure out how to make my opponent shot at them ;p

[Balthamal]

It's a decent start but until the actual ppm is looked at, cultists will always been the better option to do board coverage/screening just because you can't get enough marines to compensate for the inevitable guard brigade and have enough points left back for some of the better toys.

 

On the other hand Deathwatch have had an amazing buff with this

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

It's a decent start but until the actual ppm is looked at, cultists will always been the better option to do board coverage/screening just because you can't get enough marines to compensate for the inevitable guard brigade and have enough points left back for some of the better toys.

 

On the other hand Deathwatch have had an amazing buff with this

 

You can, however, get enough shots to murder said Guard Brigade in short order. Reece Robbins from FLG had a list that was killing 70 Guardsmen per turn with Scout Bikes and such back when Conscripts were a thing, and this rule only makes anti-infantry Astartes/Heretic vehicles/specialists even more dangerous. Bikes, HB Havocs, barebones Terminators, and even Rhinos can get in on the action. 

 

I have an Iron Warriors list that's going to be putting out over 140 shots per turn at 24 inches or greater before any buffs, and that's only counting Marines and Vehicles. I left out the Cultists entirely for the purpose of discussion. Alpha Legion should be able to get within 24 inches on Turn 1 in a lot of cases and hit roughly as hard without as much exposure to return fire. Black Legion can Advance en masse on Turn 1, still putting some decent fire down range, then plant their feet and blast away with tons of rerolls from Turn 2 on.

 

Ain't no Guardsmen got time for that. :)

 

There are counters, but the fact that you can do all of the above without losing anti-tank capability can make it rough for your opponent. Also, such a list can be built in a way that a Castellan has no real choice targets and has to settle for overkilling Infantry.

[helterskelter]

9 man biker unit with handheld flamers/combi flamer plus mk of slaanesh/cacophony strat for shenanigans, if you're night lords and willing to spank command points can also be -1 To hit theeeen prescience and (more command points) VotLW. And stick your jump pack Lord nearby.

4 CP down the swanny but that's probably 2 units totally obliterated. And can still be in a position to charge something just to tie it up, giving chainswords out where you can.

72 2+ to hit, re-rolls for the stuff, 6d6 flamer autohits and slightly defended from retribution next turn.

Probably

[Lord Raven 19]

Death guard seem to be worse off because of relentless advance being their signature thing

[Indefragable]

 

This also allows CSM to be used in a simple line abreast formation if not moving, to make a decent screen, and no matter where the opponent charges, they'll still face all the bolters on Rapid Fire because of the extra range.

 

 

Great point!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Death guard seem to be worse off because of relentless advance being their signature thing

 

They get to fire while advancing into position before parking on an objective and really opening up. They also get away with putting a few more close combat weapons in those squads that are reserved for countercharge because they can still manage an acceptable level of bolter fire with fewer men.

 

Not spectacular, but they do benefit.

 

One thing that may be important is Blightlords and Helbrutes getting lots of extra shots at longer ranges.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

9 man biker unit with handheld flamers/combi flamer plus mk of slaanesh/cacophony strat for shenanigans, if you're night lords and willing to spank command points can also be -1 To hit theeeen prescience and (more command points) VotLW. And stick your jump pack Lord nearby.

4 CP down the swanny but that's probably 2 units totally obliterated. And can still be in a position to charge something just to tie it up, giving chainswords out where you can.

72 2+ to hit, re-rolls for the stuff, 6d6 flamer autohits and slightly defended from retribution next turn.

Probably

Agreed. You can also use Delightful Agonies to ignore wounds if you want, which could also enable another Legion, like Iron Warriors, for example, who ignore cover. That's an ability that has its effects magnified against units that have bad saves outside of cover.....and these are coincidentally the prime targets for mass bolter fire. :)

[Balthamal]

 

It's a decent start but until the actual ppm is looked at, cultists will always been the better option to do board coverage/screening just because you can't get enough marines to compensate for the inevitable guard brigade and have enough points left back for some of the better toys.

 

On the other hand Deathwatch have had an amazing buff with this

 

You can, however, get enough shots to murder said Guard Brigade in short order. Reece Robbins from FLG had a list that was killing 70 Guardsmen per turn with Scout Bikes and such back when Conscripts were a thing, and this rule only makes anti-infantry Astartes/Heretic vehicles/specialists even more dangerous. Bikes, HB Havocs, barebones Terminators, and even Rhinos can get in on the action. 

 

I have an Iron Warriors list that's going to be putting out over 140 shots per turn at 24 inches or greater before any buffs, and that's only counting Marines and Vehicles. I left out the Cultists entirely for the purpose of discussion. Alpha Legion should be able to get within 24 inches on Turn 1 in a lot of cases and hit roughly as hard without as much exposure to return fire. Black Legion can Advance en masse on Turn 1, still putting some decent fire down range, then plant their feet and blast away with tons of rerolls from Turn 2 on.

 

Ain't no Guardsmen got time for that.

 

There are counters, but the fact that you can do all of the above without losing anti-tank capability can make it rough for your opponent. Also, such a list can be built in a way that a Castellan has no real choice targets and has to settle for overkilling Infantry.

 

 

The difference being that the 10 CSM you can get in a squad will set you back a minimum of 130 points. For an extra 20 that you may add in a specialist weapon or tool up the champ a mite, that nets you 30 cultists, that if someone happens to blow away from a castallen or a armiger or 2 (or as is looking much more likely now deathwatch) can be re purposed for the cost of a single CP. 

 

I don't disagree that there's applications there (and significantly more now than there were, which I love because I'm   sick of horde coverage backed up by knights every other game) but ultimately screens are supposed to do exactly that, screen. And when push comes to shove 30 cultists do it better than 10 T4 W1 3+ marines sadly

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

It's a decent start but until the actual ppm is looked at, cultists will always been the better option to do board coverage/screening just because you can't get enough marines to compensate for the inevitable guard brigade and have enough points left back for some of the better toys.

 

On the other hand Deathwatch have had an amazing buff with this

 

You can, however, get enough shots to murder said Guard Brigade in short order. Reece Robbins from FLG had a list that was killing 70 Guardsmen per turn with Scout Bikes and such back when Conscripts were a thing, and this rule only makes anti-infantry Astartes/Heretic vehicles/specialists even more dangerous. Bikes, HB Havocs, barebones Terminators, and even Rhinos can get in on the action. 

 

I have an Iron Warriors list that's going to be putting out over 140 shots per turn at 24 inches or greater before any buffs, and that's only counting Marines and Vehicles. I left out the Cultists entirely for the purpose of discussion. Alpha Legion should be able to get within 24 inches on Turn 1 in a lot of cases and hit roughly as hard without as much exposure to return fire. Black Legion can Advance en masse on Turn 1, still putting some decent fire down range, then plant their feet and blast away with tons of rerolls from Turn 2 on.

 

Ain't no Guardsmen got time for that.

 

There are counters, but the fact that you can do all of the above without losing anti-tank capability can make it rough for your opponent. Also, such a list can be built in a way that a Castellan has no real choice targets and has to settle for overkilling Infantry.

 

 

The difference being that the 10 CSM you can get in a squad will set you back a minimum of 130 points. For an extra 20 that you may add in a specialist weapon or tool up the champ a mite, that nets you 30 cultists, that if someone happens to blow away from a castallen or a armiger or 2 (or as is looking much more likely now deathwatch) can be re purposed for the cost of a single CP. 

 

I don't disagree that there's applications there (and significantly more now than there were, which I love because I'm   sick of horde coverage backed up by knights every other game) but ultimately screens are supposed to do exactly that, screen. And when push comes to shove 30 cultists do it better than 10 T4 W1 3+ marines sadly

 

Right. The Cultists are the better screen. I was saying that a mass marine horde where the bodies are the entire army can make up for it with the big chunk of offense they get instead. For no consideration other than putting bodies in the way, the little guys win and bullet catching is why they exist, after all.

[Iron_Within]

I mean I still wish they'd just removed cultists access to VOTLW strategem. It would've made sense. Coupled with this CSM would be the shooty unit and cultists the screen like they should

[Vorenus]

In my opinion Cultists should not be able to use VOTLW or Endless Cacophony.  But nobody cares what I think.

[Vykes]

Thankfully we don't have to worry about this doing much to cultists, they're still part of the discussion which is a bit telling on how useful they are to most players.  Hmmph.  

 

The Big Biker unit is actually sounding pretty cool, and this is from a guy who just generally doesn't like the bike aesthetic.  Still, I might have to toss some outriders en mass onto the table and see what happens against my Primaris opponents.  That said, while cool, I play aggressive infantry heavy black legion... I hate to say, given the way I play, this doesn't affect me at all except I'll be running my boys into a hail of long range Primaris fire.  I should be renaming my captain to Pickett.  Anyway, time to get a second unit of 20 Breacher "Plague Marines" and hope the line holds. 

[Panzer]

Thankfully we don't have to worry about this doing much to cultists, they're still part of the discussion which is a bit telling on how useful they are to most players.  Hmmph.  

 

 

Or rather how weak regular Bolter Marines actually are. And the thing is, when they are where they actually want to be (middle of the board) they are still in the exact same position as before. This buff does nothing for Marines who don't want to camp at max range unfortunately.

[ChazSexington]

I mean I still wish they'd just removed cultists access to VOTLW strategem. It would've made sense. Coupled with this CSM would be the shooty unit and cultists the screen like they should

 

 

In my opinion Cultists should not be able to use VOTLW or Endless Cacophony.  But nobody cares what I think.

 

I think it's the one thing CSM players pretty much have a consensus on (well, that and that polishing Aquilas is a complete waste of time). No VotLW for Cultists. 

[Vykes]

 

...

 

Or rather how weak regular Bolter Marines actually are. And the thing is, when they are where they actually want to be (middle of the board) they are still in the exact same position as before. This buff does nothing for Marines who don't want to camp at max range unfortunately.

 

 

Man, you sure ain't wrong sfPanzer, not wrong at all.  The spot that astartes line troops are supposed to excel at are unchanged.  Stationary shock troops indeed -snorts-.  The change isn't bad but it it is kinda frustrating as yeah, what's supposed to be the purpose other than hoping to get a single extra shot per model at long range compared to the chaff troops that can come at them 3:1 anyway.  I just get a mirthless laugh out of the Black Legion not getting that if they're going to be using their legion trait... yet those bloody Loyalist flying bricks with hurricane bolters get a buff when they were the primary reason why aircraft far and wide were kicked in the ribs for the first chapter approved.  And my Storm Eagle Squadron is left exactly where it was, collateral damage.  

 

 Fury of the Legion style thing would have been nice, or even just 'Endless Cacophony as a standard style thing.  So many things to fix the lamented bolter boys... hmmph.  

[Iron_Within]

My gaming group were having a similar conversation about Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and 40k overall and reached similar conclusions.

 

The basic Marine, just doesn't do a lot and it's problematic because they are really the basic unit in 40k and that's why they're lacklustre - they're the model that all other units are based off and so ultimately excel over marines because of that fatal flaw in the design process. The problem is though, their basic statline, is accurate, much as we hate to admit it, but where basic marines fall down is the buffs we give them (or don't, in this case). What I mean by this is a squad of 10 marines will do damage if they have strategems, psychic powers and other buffs on them, but that's a waste because other units are so much better at giving those buffs to, so Marines always remain mediocre. Many armies, have methods of circumventing that issue - Imperial Guard have orders, Daemons, Poxwalkers and Orks become better at what they do when they're in greater numbers and so become worth investing those extra CP and psychic powers into, they have something inherent to their army that investing in the basic unit worthwhile, and others, are just so dam good on at the start (Aeldari for example with Dire Avengers) that investing game resource into them is not an issue.

 

The fundamental issue is marines are basic, and have no inherent buff into them that can be manipulated to make further investments worthwhile.

 

On top of that, armies with cheap bodies can fill out the CP's easily, meaning their armies had more strategems to play with, however, strategems represent your army, or elements of it, pushing themselves to the max in one way or another, and battle fatigue is a thing, so in that regard, blowing your CP's is accurate. Large armies having lots of buffs on their hard hitting units because they can spam CP is not representative of the fluff, and that's what I want - a game that plays like an action move (it does) and represents the fluff of the universe (it doesn't). It doesn't make a lot of sense that Grotesques or whatever go into Beast mode all the dam time. What do go into Beast mode to fight off the threat are Marines. 

Marines, don't tire, they don't stop, and when they need to dig deep they do it better than anyone else, that's the fluff. They know no fear, nor doubt nor kindness - for Chaos Marines they are ruthless madmen, monsters from ages past that will stop at nothing for revenge on the Empire that betrayed them. As the human forces make their counter push into Chaos lines, they destroy the daemon engines, the cultists, the armour, and what slaughters them in return, is the Marines. Marines, all marines should be better at pushing themselves than any other, and for me that's a failure of game design that would need a deeper change.

 

Spitballing ideas - that would be moving away from CP's generating the way they do, and rather particular units generate them, or they generate each turn (but their is less of them) like in Kill Team. For Marines, your basic tactical/Chaos Space Marine squad would generate CP. 
Alternatively - Marines get a pool of "Extra" CP they can use, but only for the marines, with special Marine only strats. 

 

I mean think about it - a 10 man CSM unit with double plasma, and combi bolter standing still, with Prescience, VotLW and Endless Cacophony, would be decent, just not worth the investment though.

[Vorenus]

The problem is that the "Loyal 32" are such efficient CP batteries for the Loyalists.  What I would like to see as a fundamental change to the game is that CP can only be spent within the detachment that earned them.  So you can bring your "Loyal 32," but they can't be a CP battery for the three Shield Captains on Jetbikes.  If CP can only be spent within the detachment that generates the CP--that, I think, would solve a LOT of the problems we are seeing.

[Doom Herald]

How would people feel if this beta rule just disappeared, except that Tactical Marines and Chaos Space Marines (the troops) retained the ability to use rapid fire from their full range instead of half?

 

This would keep other units not really needing the buff from having it, while giving the basic marines something redeeming.

[Panzer]

How would people feel if this beta rule just disappeared, except that Tactical Marines and Chaos Space Marines (the troops) retained the ability to use rapid fire from their full range instead of half?

 

This would keep other units not really needing the buff from having it, while giving the basic marines something redeeming.

 

Again, it wouldn't change anything for Marines where they want to be. It doesn't increase their durability nor their damage output within 12". Rapid fire is only a thing in 40k because Bolter Marines introduced it to the game back then because that's what Marines are supposed to do. While other armies try to stay away from the enemy or try to get into melee, Marines are supposed to be able to stand their ground close range thanks to their superior armour and Rapid firering Bolter. Currently they don't (partly because everybody else got Rapid fire as well). What is needed is a buff that increases damage output at half range and also makes them more durable in general.

[Iron_Within]

Yeah I wouldn't like it only working for tacticals. Bikes and terminators are also under performing units and this is a bigger buff for them. It's just marines themselves need something with more oompf.

 

Removing the CP farm would be good for the overall meta but not enough. CSM really struggle against mono armies - I played against tau and realised he had just flat out*more* for his points - and I wasn't using marines that game - I think the difference would've been even more pronounced if I had

[tbone]

For tacticals, I think having a 2+ armor versus weapons with a damage 1 would put them in a fairly decent spot. Shrugging off small arms seems like something they should excel at...the issue would be then, wouldn't you have to give primaris the same...(but, probably with a slight points increase, which seems ok)