Beta Bolter rule vs Guard

[Wassa]

So now Space Marine Bolters are buffed to get double shots with their boltguns.

 

 

 

Essentially:

- Double shots within half range (same as normal rapid fire)

- Double shots at longer range if they don't move.

- Double shots from any terminator, biker, centurion, or vehicle.

 

 

Against our vehicles it wouldn't do a lot. But against conscripts it would decimate them. Infantry squads are essentially guaranteed to either be killed or run away due to moral after being shot by 5 marines.

 

How else would this affect guard? I had just gotten into the habit of taking Commissars to fill out detachments and spare points, but now is there any point?

[domsto]

I think it will affect us only a little. Guardsmen already die pretty fast, they now just die a little bit faster.

Perhaps we need to up the amount of Guardsmen in the Lists. I upped my List from 60 to 90 Men recently.

 

I also think it won't change much for the Space Marine player as well. Not many Chapters can allow themselves to be stationary.

[MrZakalwe]

Don't see it making much difference- deathwatch intercessors did just become a massive threat and I've got a game against a Deathwatch player tomorrow (followed by Blood Angels Thursday) so I'll see how it goes.

 

I'm probably a little light on screen (60 at 1.5k) so if anything my list will be quite vulnerable.

[sairence]

Deathwatch Stormbolters will be even more brutal with their special ammo. SM vehicles got a nice little buff. Backfield objective holders will love it.

 

For most marines it's going to be less of a game changer but rather a nice addition that doesn't cost them anything.

[GuardDaddy]

I love this change - much more thematic for space marines - and although a pain for us, its something that the game needed.

 

Basically one round of shooting is going to wipe a squad. Here the move most made to multiple small(ish) units instead of conscript blobs limits losses to 10 (squad). But they are going to sting.

 

In terms of board control space marines are going to have a better presence for longer as threat range now 24".

 

We'll need to be aware that vehicle screens going to be cleared more easily.

 

I think i'll be looking to ensure that I feed targets to bolters to protect crucial units. Naked infantry squads 'move move move' right up into face so they are charge threat turn two to pull fire onto them. transports to tag units into combat etc. Not revolutionary, but even more crucial.

[Lord Marshal]

It's a good change, but until Guardsmen go up by +5pts per model, we'll still be the most horribly overpowered army that has ever graced 40k.

[WarriorFish]

It'll be a nice buff for Marines, chiefly in letting them offer a bit more at ranged slug fights (which they could be in with Guard) as there's less requirement to close in for rapid fire range (a term that may need revising? ). Anything that helps poor Terminators out is good I'm sure everyone agrees! I agree that while this is naturally an improvement against Guard it's not one to be worried about.

 

This just helps standard Marines out against numbers, Guardsmen die quickly enough to other things. That something else is better at doing this doesn't change a great deal. The constant double tap for vehicles is perhaps more to consider, but you don't tend to see bolters on them much - perhaps this may see a resurgence; how long that lasts will be the indicator of effectiveness

 

As mentioned the ones to watch out for will be the special ammo versions: Sternguard, Thousand Sons and Deathwatch. The flip side is of course that Marines are still just as easy to kill as before, so overall not anything to be concerned about as Marines being less rubbish doesn't suddenly catapult them up the threat tiers

[major higgins]

If I read it right it will be the double of the shot they usually make with a rapid fire weapon if they remain stationary. Son 4 shot at short range and 2 at long range...

[Frostglaive]

It does not double shots. It just allows for Rapid Fire to take effect in more than one circumstance. It does not make a Rapid Fire 1 weapon shoot 4 times in half range. All it does it allow the weapon to be in Rapid Fire range if any one of the three requirements are met.

[MARK0SIAN]

It will hurt Guard a little but it’s kind of what the rule seems designed to do, give Marines a bit more killing power against T3 units that will always outnumber them. It’s a good change as it helps address a problem marine armies have but won’t make a game-breaking difference against a guard army.

 

Screens will die a bit faster but remember, nothing in the rule changes how much space marine players will have to pay for their marines and their now slightly better bolters and the fact the bolters will still struggle with tougher targets means you aren’t going to see a sudden influx of marine troops who can shred a guard screen in a single turn. Bringing 20-30 extra guardsmen will more than offset the improvements to the bolter.

[TheShredder]

Against our vehicles it wouldn't do a lot. But against conscripts it would decimate them. Infantry squads are essentially guaranteed to either be killed or run away due to moral after being shot by 5 marines.

 

5 Marines kill ~3 guardsmen. Even factoring in morale, you're unlikely to lose more than half a squad.

[HallofStovokor]

 

 

Against our vehicles it wouldn't do a lot. But against conscripts it would decimate them. Infantry squads are essentially guaranteed to either be killed or run away due to moral after being shot by 5 marines.

5 Marines kill ~3 guardsmen. Even factoring in morale, you're unlikely to lose more than half a squad.

He's not wrong. To decimate is to kill 10% of something. If you're able to kill 2 conscripts or 1 guardsman you've decimated that unit.

[Wassa]

Hmm, maybe it won't be too bad, will have to see how it plays out.

[HallofStovokor]

Truthfully, it makes the SMs and CSMs better without having to nerf the guard. We still have the better option with lasguns, but now it will level the playing field for the troop choices. I'm not too worried about this as we still have better ranged units.

[duz_]

Good to see GW actively work with the community to fix units :tu:

Especially their iconic IP

 

Fortunately for us I doubt it will impact us much at all...

 

Now instead of pseudo salvo they made them Rapid Fire 2 and Ap-1 then I'd be sweating... :sweat:

[Wassa]

Something like allowing power armour to subtract 1 from the AP of any attacks it suffers is more fluffy, but maybe too overpowered, Armageddon just gets to allow AP of -1.

[domsto]

I think we will face more intersessors from now on.
They benefit the most from the beta Rule because they have the Range to remain Stationary for 1-2 Turns.
Also Combined with the Vigilus Formation "Indomitus Crusade" and the Stratagem "Rapid Fire" getting 4 Shoots per Model at 30".
This could become a popular build and something we should be prepared for.

They are still -1AP so also a little threat to lighter Vehicles like Sentinels

[HallofStovokor]

I think we will face more intersessors from now on.

They benefit the most from the beta Rule because they have the Range to remain Stationary for 1-2 Turns.

Also Combined with the Vigilus Formation "Indomitus Crusade" and the Stratagem "Rapid Fire" getting 4 Shoots per Model at 30".

This could become a popular build and something we should be prepared for.

They are still -1AP so also a little threat to lighter Vehicles like Sentinels

I don't think that it will be that big of a problem. SMs need to close the distance to to take away the guard's ranged advantage. We can still out shoot them and we already try to keep infantry from trading shots with vehicles. Terminators won't be a problem, because they are still slow and aren't worth the points. I just played a game tonight against space wolves using the new beta rule. He had to abandon the stand in place and fight strategy as I could range him with my mortars, basilisks and tanks before he got into range of his bolt guns. Honestly it's suicidal for any elite army to try to out shoot the Guard. We have some options for mobility, but our best case scenario is for a SM squad to try to shoot our gun line. Yes, 5 marines will most likely kill 4 guardsmen. That will still leave 6 guardmen left to shoot back. If you use grenade launchers and FRFSRF, the marine squad will be chewed apart.

[domsto]

I don't think that it will be that big of a problem. SMs need to close the distance to to take away the guard's ranged advantage. We can still out shoot them and we already try to keep infantry from trading shots with vehicles. Terminators won't be a problem, because they are still slow and aren't worth the points. I just played a game tonight against space wolves using the new beta rule. He had to abandon the stand in place and fight strategy as I could range him with my mortars, basilisks and tanks before he got into range of his bolt guns. Honestly it's suicidal for any elite army to try to out shoot the Guard. We have some options for mobility, but our best case scenario is for a SM squad to try to shoot our gun line. Yes, 5 marines will most likely kill 4 guardsmen. That will still leave 4 guardmen left to shoot back. If you use grenade launchers and FRFSRF, the marine squad will be chewed apart.

Don't get me wrong, i also don't thing this will become a Problem for Guard.

As i am also a Space Marine Player i wanted to point out what i think will most likly change in Space Marine Lists.

As you said, outshoot Guard is nearly impossible

[MrZakalwe]

Had my game against a Deathwatch player last night and the aim of the game was to test the Beta rules so he was running some counts-as squads to specifically test it.

 

For his troops he was running deathwatch vet squads with:

 

1x DW sergeant with Stormbolter/stormshield

2x Vet with stormbolter/stormshield

2x vet with stormbolter/chainsword

 

These squads clock in at less than a hundred points each, hit out to 30" with -1 rend, put out 20 shots a turn and when deployed in cover have a 2+/3++ defensively. Clustered around the watch captain and with the 'troops' mission tactics they reroll 1s to hit and wound.

 

Alongside that to finish his other battalion he had a couple of minimum strength intercessor squads with bolt rifles - these were less of an issue as they got quickly mulched by battlecannon fire turn 2 but they were not exactly poor offensively and 10 shots with a -3 rend at 24" from a 90 point defensively efficient troops choice was an eyeopener.

 

My screen started with 90 men and there were about 20 of them left by turn 2 and that was with the prepared positions stratagem running and 3 CP spent preventing battleshock losses.

 

Deathwatch with a list built to take advantage of the beta rule is now perhaps a little too good at crushing guard.

[Beams]

Had my game against a Deathwatch player last night and the aim of the game was to test the Beta rules so he was running some counts-as squads to specifically test it.

 

For his troops he was running deathwatch vet squads with:

 

1x DW sergeant with Stormbolter/stormshield

2x Vet with stormbolter/stormshield

2x vet with stormbolter/chainsword

 

These squads clock in at less than a hundred points each, hit out to 30" with -1 rend, put out 20 shots a turn and when deployed in cover have a 2+/3++ defensively. Clustered around the watch captain and with the 'troops' mission tactics they reroll 1s to hit and wound.

 

Alongside that to finish his other battalion he had a couple of minimum strength intercessor squads with bolt rifles - these were less of an issue as they got quickly mulched by battlecannon fire turn 2 but they were not exactly poor offensively and 10 shots with a -3 rend at 24" from a 90 point defensively efficient troops choice was an eyeopener.

 

My screen started with 90 men and there were about 20 of them left by turn 2 and that was with the prepared positions stratagem running and 3 CP spent preventing battleshock losses.

 

Deathwatch with a list built to take advantage of the beta rule is now perhaps a little too good at crushing guard.

I'm surprised he didn't have a watch master for full rerolls to hit.

[MrZakalwe]

I'm surprised he didn't have a watch master for full rerolls to hit.

He did it just wasn't with his troop firebase.

[MARK0SIAN]

Sounds nasty, how many Vet squads was it? Just the three for a battalion?

[MrZakalwe]

Four squads (he ran double battalion).

[major higgins]

Today I played against Iron Warriors with 10 chosen, 5 Combirequiem and a HB. This squad, in cover, chewed 40 guardsmen before being killed to its last man. Practically it helds a flank from itself against my infantry. Two ten men squad which hold their ground killed a lot of guardsmen thanks to this new rules. So all in all not a match winning rules but a good buf for Power Armor...