Troops: CSM vs Cultists

[Iron_Within]

So, with the bolter beta rules I think it's time to look again at CSM vs Cultists as troops. At the start of this I'm trying to avoid personal bias though I'm hope that CSM are now worth taking for certain roles over Cultists. I'm going to look at several differing roles they can perform.

 

Objective Campers

Looking at the maths of Objective campers - Space Marines and cultists are about equivalent for points in damage output, the marines edging with Bolters and a Combi Bolter on the Sergeant, the Cultists edging if the unit takes a Heavy Bolter (on the CSM!) point for point (so 15 Cultists verses 5 marines with Combi bolter and Heavy Bolter).

 

An advantage that's not been mentioned often is the CSM have a really small foot print so they are far easier to hide if you're trying to avoid enemy fire (useful for Defend objective X).

 

As a small objective camper, Space Marines and Cultists, min size to min size, Space Marines are marginally better, a better save and a smaller foot print. For Objective campers, if you can spare 15 points extra, I think Marines are better now - as the addition of a combi bolter and heavy bolter puts an irritating amount of dakka on screening units.

 

Horde

 

I'll caveat this with saying that unless you have Abaddon or the Iron Warriors Warlord trait Cold and Bitter to negate morale I don't think either are a good idea. Maybe with Alpha Legion, but you wouldn't want to advancing into 12" range.

 

Anyway, 20 Marines, put out 20/40 bolter shots a turn vs 40 cultists 40/80 Autogun shots, you could also get another 12 Cultists in there for the same price as the 20 Marines. 

Marines still die really quickly without support, they're still marines, and they don't have tide of traitors. But their basic fire is more reliable than the Cultists.

Assuming in Rapid Fire, Endless Cacophony, VotlW Prescience and a Chaos Lord/Prince to reroll 1's the damage out put is as follows:

• Marines Vs Guardsmen: 35.802 dead Guardsmen
• Cultists vs Guardsmen: 21.728 dead Guardsmen (25.728 with 12 additional Cultists)
• Marines Vs Marines: 14.321 dead Marines
• Cultists vs Marines: 8.148 Dead Marines (9.481 with 12 additional Cultists)
• Marines vs Knights: 7.16 Wounds Inflicted
• Cultists vs Knights: 5.432 Wounds Inflicted (6.099 with 12 additional Cultists)
• Marines Vs Orks: 35.802 Dead Orks
• Cultists vs Orks: 20.37 Dead Orks (23.703 dead Orks with 12 additional Cultists)

Surprisingly, in every circumstance, for damage output, the Chaos Space Marines beat the Cultists. This is moreso if the CSM remain stationary outside 12", a neat trick would be to Warp Time forward then rapid fire happily at 24" range. The Space Marines survivability is questionable as the Cultists benefit from Tide of Traitors which massively benefits their survivability. One option would be 20 man Space Marines with 40 Man Cultists in the same army as one could benefit from both traits but that would be a significant points sink at 460 points.

 

Of course I think if you're going for max bolter dakka a combi bolter on the Aspiring Champion would be an excellent addition at only 2 points

 

I'll post some more ideas later.

[Soulhunter1995]

Just a thought with regards to this, how would the beta rules for bolters come into play in thought to this? you wouldn`t have to get into half range to get the rapid fire off? :) Apologies if i have asked a stupid question but i just thought you wouldn`t have to worry about getting into 12 inch range? ^_^

[Iron_Within]

Yeah sorry if I ddn't make that clear - the maths above for the objective campers was assuming they were still and rapid firing. The Horde option was assuming both were in rapid fire range. The difference between the two in the Horde version is that can be 24" for Space Marines (or 30" if you push them forward with Warp Time)

[Sonoftherubric21]

Well well....Marines are looking a bit better now. 

I know this buff benefits my army builds for both Black Legion and Thousand Sons greatly as I tend to use lots of power armor. Major damage jump at the very least for myself. (Given I crutch Abbadon like a fiend the black legion love hoarding up) 

Good to see!  

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Well well....Marines are looking a bit better now. 

 

I know this buff benefits my army builds for both Black Legion and Thousand Sons greatly as I tend to use lots of power armor. Major damage jump at the very least for myself. (Given I crutch Abbadon like a fiend the black legion love hoarding up) 

 

Good to see!  

 

Horde option doesn't require Abaddon if you don't want to crutch him. You can also use a BL Dark Apostle with the Inspiring Leader Warlord Trait who goes to Ld11 and can hand it out. Then use 10 man squads. You lose Abby's other forcer multipliers and give up Tide of Traitors on the Cultists, but can shave quite a few points and get to a Brigade in short order. At that point your Vets/Prescience/Endless Cacophony targets will have to be Elite units, Havocs, or Oblits, but that can be managed. Way easier to use the Warmaster, but you do have options.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Well well....Marines are looking a bit better now. 

 

I know this buff benefits my army builds for both Black Legion and Thousand Sons greatly as I tend to use lots of power armor. Major damage jump at the very least for myself. (Given I crutch Abbadon like a fiend the black legion love hoarding up) 

 

Good to see!  

 

Horde option doesn't require Abaddon if you don't want to crutch him. You can also use a BL Dark Apostle with the Inspiring Leader Warlord Trait who goes to Ld11 and can hand it out. Then use 10 man squads. You lose Abby's other forcer multipliers and give up Tide of Traitors on the Cultists, but can shave quite a few points and get to a Brigade in short order. At that point your Vets/Prescience/Endless Cacophony targets will have to be Elite units, Havocs, or Oblits, but that can be managed. Way easier to use the Warmaster, but you do have options.

 

 

This is very true. I own 2 apostles for just such a reason!  Though generally I crutch the hell outta Abbadon in most 2k games. anything less I opt to not take him though saving points from him and doing a horde with some apostles in the line might actually be a good idea. 

[Iron Skull Mask]

I will try 10 man squads in Rhinos with extra combibolters. A Rhino then fires 8 shots after moving 12" or smokes after advancing and protects the Marines inside. If the Rhino is blown up the survivors instantly benefit from bolter discipline and delivered into 12" from the target they fire 30 shots per volley (including their bolt pistols). Buff and smile, or smile and use your buffs on havocs, helbrutes, terminators or other big punch.

[Panzer]

I will try 10 man squads in Rhinos with extra combibolters. A Rhino then fires 8 shots after moving 12" or smokes after advancing and protects the Marines inside. If the Rhino is blown up the survivors instantly benefit from bolter discipline and delivered into 12" from the target they fire 30 shots per volley (including their bolt pistols). Buff and smile, or smile and use your buffs on havocs, helbrutes, terminators or other big punch.

 

That's not how Bolter Disciplin works. The max amount of shots a Marine can put out with his Bolter didn't change at all. It just added two additional conditions how you can Rapid fire. So a 10 man squad would still have only 20 shots max however now they get it if they either are at half range OR stationary OR are Terminators, Bikes or vehicles.

 

Also you can't shoot pistols together with other weapons. It's either pistols or every other weapon.

[Iron Skull Mask]

 

I will try 10 man squads in Rhinos with extra combibolters. A Rhino then fires 8 shots after moving 12" or smokes after advancing and protects the Marines inside. If the Rhino is blown up the survivors instantly benefit from bolter discipline and delivered into 12" from the target they fire 30 shots per volley (including their bolt pistols). Buff and smile, or smile and use your buffs on havocs, helbrutes, terminators or other big punch.

 

That's not how Bolter Disciplin works. The max amount of shots a Marine can put out with his Bolter didn't change at all. It just added two additional conditions how you can Rapid fire. So a 10 man squad would still have only 20 shots max however now they get it if they either are at half range OR stationary OR are Terminators, Bikes or vehicles.

 

Also you can't shoot pistols together with other weapons. It's either pistols or every other weapon.

 

 

Right. Just rereading the rules to get back and paused after the section stating every model can fire all its weapons. The rules for pistols clarify that they can't be used with other weapons but within 1" of enemy models.