Buried Dagger: Doom of the Death Guard

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. Plus, Mortarion has repeatedly been shown to be one of the less kindly Primarchs, never particularly warm to any of his underlings. To suddenly have this change from being untrusting and distant at the best of times, to "well, we go way back, so he cool" is just jarring.

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem with this book for me is that it doesn’t feel like a heresy novel, despite its subject matter. Swallow isn’t a bad author, by any stretch, but the novel doesn’t tie into anything except other Swallow-verse works in any meaningful way. It just feels like a standard 40k novel. That being said, I am enjoying it. The Barbarus plot isn’t something I’d have chosen, and there are things I’ll handwave away (Typhons parentage being the main one), but it is enjoyable just as a pseudo-horror story.

[b1soul]

I haven't read anything by Swallow above mediocre. His best works to me are probably his Garro shorts

[Manchu warlord]

Finally read it.  The best parts in my opinion are - oddly - the Barbarus parts, in which I enjoyed immensely, despite it having nothing to do with the Heresy.  I liked that Swallow did a Haley-maneuver by shifting between the present-Heresy-timeline of traveling in the warp, dealing with the Nurgling affliction, and the moments of the past in Barbarus, dealing with Mortarian's chilhood.  It was well written and cleverly done, for the Barbarus parts are, in most cases, reflection of Mortarion's current situation in the present timeline; his ailing moments in the future leads him to go back and think about the past.  

 

So, a question arises:  What is Mortarion's Primarch book gonna be about now? 

If his childhood upbringing has be handled in this book, that probably just leaves the only choices to being an excuse for some author to write (in more detail) pre-Heresy Death Guard action and culture, whilst they are still loyal and crusading in the Emperor's name.  Or, it could literally the continuation after Mortarion swore fealty to his Father, and leading to the creation of the Death Guard legion.  This would be interesting as long as Annandale does not do it. 

 

I also liked the Knights-Errant parts as well.  As a fan of the Garro series, the Knights-Errant scenes in this book makes for a good ending to their arc in HH series, which began since The Flight of the Eisenstein.  The moment where Malcador finally solves the riddle of the Vow-breaking ex-Silent sisters was very chilling and nicely done.   

 

The thing I didn't like, and found annoying - and most people seem to think this - is how in the book, the episodes of the Death Guard and the Knights-Errant do not tie up in the end, and it just leaves the story hanging unsatisfyingly; not a very good way to end the Horus Heresy series IMO.

 

It reminds me of the novel Scars, of how Wraight spends a good amount of effort and time in developing the Space Wolve's introductory scene into the Battle of Alaaxes.  Despite not being a VI legion novel, the Space Wolves did get a good amount of screen time, and the only the connection they had to the protagonists of the novel, the White Scars, was a mere vox communication; the Wolves and the Scars didn't even see face to face.

But this is just what I feel.   

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Finely read this and I liked it. I agree it was a split between the DG and KE. Even if allot of the KE parts were from the perspective of former DG. My favorite part of the HH is the KE so to have so much of them, made this book better. The DG parts were ok on their own but it did feel like a Primarc series.

 

Something I did not like so much was how the DG were portrayed as not trusting Typhus. When one went to the Dred Bitterblood and tried to get the scoop. I was all... Hello!? Isstavan III? Didn't you virus bomb your brothers? They seemed way to untainted for me. This was 7 years layer right? The other legions were full on possessed.

 

Mortarian was kinda petty also. He really needed to single out the 7th co? Really needed to let Garro know? Not bad enough you virus bomed the loyalists?

 

Also Malcador. When Loken tells him naw brah. You can keep you're shinny coin. He tells him.. You know Horus is going to kill you... So petty. But funny.

 

And Loken takes up Ruibio's force sword. After he is told he really is a psyker. Its been close to 15 years ive been arguing that Loken is a psyker.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/232775-is-loken-a-psyker/

 

Take a good read of this oll thread. I'm going to ask that it get resurrected.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[b1soul]

I understand that at the time, the thread was highly speculative…but geez, ppl were being petty, Tom Petty, in that thread

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I use to live for Loken talk. Had to endure A DB even. Man the good oll days. Edited September 25, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Lord_Caerolion]

Still don't like what they've done to the character, and think it cheapened the events of Istvaan, but yes, you were right, after all this time, Walkier. I'm a man of my word, and apologise for any offense given. Seems Loken is indeed a psyker.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Offense? Bah. We are 2 sides of the same coin my friend. Maybe the same coin that Loken flipped to the Sigilite? We care WAY to much about this history to a game with toy soldiers. I respect your passion.

 

Those we're the good I'll days eh?

[Angel_of_Blood]

I still believe that Loken was never intended to be a psyker in the opening books and the series, but rather something they rewrote as they went along. 

[b1soul]

On another site, I said GW would probably have Guilliman return one day as he's the least dead out of the dead primarchs. They thought I was off my rocker and GW would never pull something like that. I recall the argument turned on what put into stasis at the moment of death meant LOL

[Angel_of_Blood]

I mean, I still maintain he was dead and not healing in stasis from the dead. Can't say any of us expected Eldar gods to be involved and a 10,000 year old tech priest...

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

How strong of a mind dose Loken have? 8 other hero level psykers seemed to be totally drunk on the Sigilite Koolaid. With effort, Garvil shrugged of the compulsion of one of the most powerful minds ever.

 

He even talked to Veran after he died. Talked him down from being a plague zombie. That's no cantrip.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Blood Angel Scout]

I think Loken's decision to stay was more to do with the impact of meeting the Emperor.

 

As for his ability, has it ever been demonstrated? We've seen (at least think so) all of the GK founders using their psychic power while being collected by the other KE, so what is Loken's?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The link I posted above dose quite a bit of hashing out what be live was Loken demonstrating his ability. Now it is my feeling that his ability was suppressed so these examples are in need of a leap of faith, one many are simply unable or unwilling to take.

 

I do not wish to go into them in depth here. Down that dark path leads forum closure.

 

Loken's choice to stay might not have been a show of force but surely his refusal to say the name chosen for him by the Sig was.

 

@ b1soul. Nice prediction. That must have drawn a fair bit of shade. Get called a Smerf fan boi? Primarch wish lister?

 

We are sailors on an sea doubt. We will get wet. Pack you're raincoat and some galoshes.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Lorne,

 

 

You state Loken's been told he's a psyker...which story does this occur?

 

In terms of not saying the name or accepting the coin, I took it as more to do with this section. The lines between -- are bold in ebook and unable to do that while I currently post but reflect Loken's internal thoughts as well as Malcador's comment to him when he's giving the coin back, strengthen this as he is choosing to remain on his current path

 

Then the Emperor was standing over Loken, and the warrior was robbed of his voice, of everything but the will to stand and accept whatever command his highest lord would give him.

‘I speak of a conflict where the infernal must be battled in kind, fire against fire, like against like,’ He intoned. ‘I will have you forge your souls into swords, your minds into shields. --If that is to be your fate--.’ The last words echoed through Loken’s spirit, as if spoken only to him and no other.

An icy claw of doubt seized his heart and Loken looked down as the Emperor moved away. -- This is wrong--, said a voice in his head. --- I should not be here. This is not my fate.--

 

 

‘Prepared, as I said.’ Malcador took a step towards the shimmering threshold. ‘It is too dangerous to make the journey by starship, and time is no longer our ally. Quickly now. Go through, and I will show you your destiny.’

The group advanced towards the portal, but Loken did not move. The Sigillite saw his hesitation and turned back to face him.

‘Crius,’ he began, but Loken raised a hand.

‘No,’ said the warrior, producing the silver coin. ‘I had another name once before and it didn’t take. I am Garviel Loken. I was born as such and death will know me as the same.’

Malcador’s expression became stony. The Sigillite was not a man who was often refused. ‘Consider carefully what you say next. The arc of your life will turn upon it.’

‘I have never been more certain of anything,’ he replied, and Loken meant every word. ‘With respect, Lord Regent… I refuse you.’ He tossed the silver coin into the air and Malcador drew it into his clawed grip with a telekinetic pull. ‘Whatever destiny I have, it lies on Terra, not Titan.’

Conflicted emotions passed over the Sigillite’s face. It would have been a simple matter for the great psyker to compel Loken to obey him and follow to the distant Saturnian moon – but what righteousness would there have been in such an act? At length the coin vanished into the folds of his robes. ‘Eight… Eight will carry the day, then.’ He looked up at the warrior, who now stood alone on the far side of the chamber. ‘As you wish, Loken.’ Malcador stood silently by as Koios, Yotun and the others vanished through the gateway, with Wyntor trailing at their heels.

When only the two of them remained, Malcador gave Loken a terse nod of farewell and turned away, towards the portal.

‘Horus will destroy you,’ the Sigillite said quietly, without looking back, ‘and Cerberus will not save you.’

‘We’ll see,’ Loken replied, as the thunder cracked about him once again.

 

What I find interesting is more the contrast between the Emperor and Malcador's view of Loken's potential future, especially when earlier in the chapter, the Emperor crediting Malcador's preparation of the Grey Knights as something he hadn't seen or anticipated a need for a force of this type.

 

Kind of how he never spotted the taint in Typhon when he first arrived on Barbarus, doesn't he feel like he being scrutinised to his core?

[Angel_of_Blood]

I don't think for a second that the other 8 Knights were compelled by Malcador or drunk oh his ideas so to say. They simply believed in his and the Emperors vision and were willing to do whatever it took to safeguard the Imperium and the Emperor. I don't think Loken was showing immense willpower or psychic ability to reject the offer as such, just that he firmly believes he has to face Horus. It's far more personal to him than the others. As posted above, Malcador even thinks that he could compel Loken if he wanted to, but it would serve no point.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Rubio tells Loken he is warp touched after he is accused of reading his thoughts. He says I did not your thoughts were screaming. Something about potential. Its right b4 the long section just pasted above. Right after Garro leaves. Or maybe right b4 he leaves.. I'll check my book tonight.

 

And I rwad the part about Loken not saying the name as mental fortitude. He said the name almoat said it self.

 

All this other stuff aside. People All ways uae to say "Loken will never be chosen to be a Greyknight Grandmaster. He's not a psyker." Well he was chosen to be jusr that. That proof works both ways no? Turn a blind eye all you want but he waa given the chance to found the psyker chapter. You think he was going to head up the non psyker studies classes? And at the end he picks up Rubio's force sword. Nothing to see here?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Marshal Rohr]

Haven't read Solar War yet, have you?

[bluntblade]

I was about to ask if this is like how every non-Thorpe author tiptoes around the Tuchulchua.

[Blood Angel Scout]

The Emperor meets with the 9 remaining chosen, one of which is the PoV character and is indicated that the path ahead may not be his fate, then a thought that this is not his fate is further confirmation for Loken to reject the offer. This can be alluded to in the following quote when Wyntor appears to open the webway gate

‘Serving a greater cause,’ Malcador replied. ‘Now you understand what is at stake. You have been judged and found worthy.’ He glanced back at the assembled warriors. ‘What was given to you is for you only. Consider it a gift… A final word of guidance from the Emperor Himself.’

 

Loken being told by Rubio, that's what Rubio thinks about Loken, not that he senses anything. Picking up Rubio's sword may have a meaning further down the line but then again, no sign of it being used by Loken or his psychic ability in Solar War...which would've came in really handy if he does

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Haven't read Solar War yet, have you?

I read Solar war b4 the Buried Dagger. There do seem to be some inconsistency. Loken and Malcador have a conversation and it still seems like he is working for him. Also in his action scene he is wielding a chain sword again. I went back to see what I coukd see after I read this book. Books came out really close toghethe. Also in the Solar war there is no sense that anything special is going on with Loken. But that's that and this is this.

[b1soul]

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

[Marshal Rohr]

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

 

We will see if it stays in the Swallow verse. He spent a good chunk of the novel 

 

right next to Samus inhabiting Mersadie Oliton, a daemon he's had contact with and presence he has felt before and had no idea whatsoever, nor could he detect the growing warp pressure the other psykers could

. 

 

As for proximity, Buried Dagger was finished before the Heresy meetings plotted out the Heresy and would've been taken into consideration as the editor was apart of all the meetings. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The Buried Dagger: Chapter seven. PG 344 (hardback).

"What did the long-range scrub-sensors see out there? he wondered. What great terrors has the Warmaster held in reserve, saving them to be unleashed on this day?

'That question will be answered soon enough.' Rubio moved up to stand by his side.

'I didn't speak it aloud.' Loken shot him a hard glare.

'In here, your thoughts are loud as gunshots,' replied the psyker. Then he gave Loken a long, measuring look. 'Have you ever wondered why that is?'

'Whatever you are implying, Rubio, spit it out. Now is not the time for prolixity.'

Rubio tapped his temple. 'I think there is a touch of the warp in you.'

'Did Tormageddon knock something loose in your head, psyker?' Loken snapped back. His traitorous brother had almost killed Rubio during their mission to the Vengeful Spirit. 'Don't insult me'.

'Far from it. Although I did have time to think on this whilst I rested in a healing coma.' The other Knight-Errant raised hus hands in a conciliatory gesture. 'I merely commenting on .... Well, call it unexplored possibility.'

'Let it remain that.' Loken replied firmly. 'And in the interim, stay out of my head.'"

 

 

 

Seems crystal clear to me. Even if you take this out of context its clear. In a chapter where the GK grand masters are birthed, well if this is not enough proof....

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier