Buried Dagger: Doom of the Death Guard

[Marshal Rohr]

I see you still, after years haven't learned. We will see where it goes in the Siege. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

We will see if it stays in the Swallow verse. He spent a good chunk of the novel

 

right next to Samus inhabiting Mersadie Oliton, a daemon he's had contact with and presence he has felt before and had no idea whatsoever, nor could he detect the growing warp pressure the other psykers could

.

 

As for proximity, Buried Dagger was finished before the Heresy meetings plotted out the Heresy and would've been taken into consideration as the editor was apart of all the meetings.

Absence of proof is not proof of absense.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

We will see if it stays in the Swallow verse. He spent a good chunk of the novel

 

right next to Samus inhabiting Mersadie Oliton, a daemon he's had contact with and presence he has felt before and had no idea whatsoever, nor could he detect the growing warp pressure the other psykers could

.

 

As for proximity, Buried Dagger was finished before the Heresy meetings plotted out the Heresy and would've been taken into consideration as the editor was apart of all the meetings.

Absence of proof is not proof of absense.

 

 

What about all the psychically gifted legionaries getting sick before the fleet breaks out and Loken's just beebopping around the Phalanx?

 

 

Again, we will just have to wait and see what happens. It's not like he won't around the rest of the Siege. If they dont circle back to Swallow's ambiguity, he's not a psyker. If he shoots lightning out of his eyes during the Siege, he's a psyker. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[bluntblade]

Can I just add that I hate the reference to Tormageddon as a traitorous brother? It just says to me that Swallow didn't know the character and background.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Can I just add that I hate the reference to Tormageddon as a traitorous brother? It just says to me that Swallow didn't know the character and background.

/agree. Not that Swallow didn't know, just that there is some missing details.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

 

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

We will see if it stays in the Swallow verse. He spent a good chunk of the novel

 

right next to Samus inhabiting Mersadie Oliton, a daemon he's had contact with and presence he has felt before and had no idea whatsoever, nor could he detect the growing warp pressure the other psykers could

.

 

As for proximity, Buried Dagger was finished before the Heresy meetings plotted out the Heresy and would've been taken into consideration as the editor was apart of all the meetings.

Absence of proof is not proof of absense.

What about all the psychically gifted legionaries getting sick before the fleet breaks out and Loken's just beebopping around the Phalanx?

 

 

Again, we will just have to wait and see what happens. It's not like he won't around the rest of the Siege. If they dont circle back to Swallow's ambiguity, he's not a psyker. If he shoots lightning out of his eyes during the Siege, he's a psyker.

Again the absence of proof..

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

(I've been waiting a long time to give this argument)

 

Im good with waiting. Just that this book has relevant information.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Blood Angel Scout]

So you're providing the passage that shows Loken is responding to Rubio's theoretical. Rubio states he hears Loken's thoughts which could imply he is sending them unconsciously, or they are in a place which amplifies Rubio's own abilities, meaning he doesn't have to try to read Loken's mind.

 

Yeah, I get it, the GK were all psykers therefore Loken must have something to have been considered but who knows, the plan could've been he was going to specialise in Enuncia?

 

It could also have been a bait and switch with the idea that Loken was going to be a GK as all of the others have demonstrated consciously their abilities at some point throughout the Knight Errant plot line, the lore was that there were 8 founders of the GK and those have now been identified in this novel so it killed the Sevatar-is-GK theory.

 

The thing about Loken being a psyker is now a case of how latent is his latent talent going to be considering how much he's been around psykers, attacked and saved by them, that if he hasn't shown any ability by this point in the series, then it's going to need some astonishing writing to make it work convincingly

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

So we're back to Loken could be a psyker?

We will see if it stays in the Swallow verse. He spent a good chunk of the novel

 

right next to Samus inhabiting Mersadie Oliton, a daemon he's had contact with and presence he has felt before and had no idea whatsoever, nor could he detect the growing warp pressure the other psykers could

.

 

As for proximity, Buried Dagger was finished before the Heresy meetings plotted out the Heresy and would've been taken into consideration as the editor was apart of all the meetings.

Absence of proof is not proof of absense.

What about all the psychically gifted legionaries getting sick before the fleet breaks out and Loken's just beebopping around the Phalanx?

 

 

Again, we will just have to wait and see what happens. It's not like he won't around the rest of the Siege. If they dont circle back to Swallow's ambiguity, he's not a psyker. If he shoots lightning out of his eyes during the Siege, he's a psyker.

Again the a sense of proof..

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

(I've been waiting a long time to give this argument)

 

Im good with waiting. Just that this book has relevant information.

 

 

"Again the sense of proof" doesn't mean anything. The contrary evidence to your idea is the fact it wasn't mentioned again in the Solar War (the book immediately following the Buried Dagger) during a major daemonic incursion (in which all psykers were effected similarly and Loken was not). 2 for Me, 1 Vague Rubio hypothetical for you.  

Edited September 26, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Not a sense. Absence, sorry typo. That link I provided is good. Check it. Plz.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Walkier, the one using that fallacy is also you. You're making a claim, backed by one possible interpretation of what a character has said, who isn't even sure of it himself, and are relying on "well nothing's definitively said he isn't yet".

 

As an argument against the logic of what you've said, there comes a time where absence of evidence is just that. I mean, I can't claim "humans are capable of unaided flight, the fact that I haven't provided any examples of this is just absence of evidence, not evidence of absence."

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well actually someone has said he was not a psyker. He said so himself. He gets offended in the part I pasted when he is told Rubio thinks he is. I'm by no means saying there is no evidence to counteract my claim. Ive not one time in over 15 years of this, tried to say there is nothing pointing to Loken not being a psyker. I mean that would be crazy. Useing one fact to prove a argument even if its just circumstance is not a fallacy. Proof is proof. Absence of proof is not proof of anything.

 

 

I have said many o time that to get to where I am takes a leap of faith. That I'm out on a limb. I know the burden of proof is on my side of the line. If it was any other way I would not be so invested.

 

 

In this case Rubio is a expert witness. He is a Astartes Codicer, who has been found worthy of becomming a Greyknight founding Grandmaster, by the Sigilite and the Big E. He has also given this matter a long bit of consideration. Many months Whilst in a healing coma.

 

Hey if I've missread what Ruibo is saying... I guess my bad. Guess I'm to close to the target to have proper perspective.

 

 

Guess you take backsky your previous concession? And here I was going to call on you to help out you're former battle brothers on this matter. Dang.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord Lorne Walkier

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm saying it's possible, but that getting a bit snarky with "I've waited a long time to use this argument" when you're using the fallacy yourself isn't a good look. You haven't got proof yet. You've got one character saying it's maybe possible. Expert witness or not, he hasn't said "yer a psyker, Loken". He's possibly implying it, but if an expert witness doesn't say "this is true", then don't say he's saying it's true.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

My bad for the snark. Although not intended to be taken that way I can understand it being taken as such. I'll try an up my level of discourse to not dish out any more feelz bads. Not an easy thing for me considering how deep I am in this but it will be done.

 

Again my bad.

[Lord_Caerolion]

All good, man. I mean, I think it's certainly possible that he's a psyker now, and there's certainly more to back it up now than there was before, but I could also see it as a red herring, or yet more examples of authors overdoing what the brief was ("I need to make Loken look like he may have died? Cool, I'll have Abaddon beat him to a pulp, have a building drop on him, and then have city-shattering ordnance drop incredibly close to him!")

 

Personally, I'm still of the opinion that Loken's death should have been the "closure" of the opening trilogy, and just folded his subsequent role into that of Garro.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, i’d have been just as happy for iacton to fulfill the role of loyalist luna wolf at the siege and have loken a tragic memory

[DarkChaplain]

 

Haven't read Solar War yet, have you?

I read Solar war b4 the Buried Dagger. There do seem to be some inconsistency. Loken and Malcador have a conversation and it still seems like he is working for him. Also in his action scene he is wielding a chain sword again. I went back to see what I coukd see after I read this book. Books came out really close toghethe. Also in the Solar war there is no sense that anything special is going on with Loken. But that's that and this is this.

 

 

.....am I the only one who remembers that Rubio's "sword" is actually a standard-issue Ultramarines Gladius? A "shortsword" that is closer to a sidearm, which pretty much any Legion brother of his carried? There is nothing at all psychic about that sword. The only thing preventing Wyntor from picking it up and using it to slice his own throat in an attempt to flip off Malcador is that it'd likely be too heavy for him to wield.

 

It's a keepsake with no other value than sentimental - first to Rubio, who clung to it from the first and was deeply upset when he was told he'd have to get rid of everything delineating his lineage, back in Oath of Moment, and was granted this one exception in the end. Rubio dropping it before his departure shows that he has truly abandoned his old allegiances, ready for something greater, while Loken picks it up, as he has not, and now he carries a friend's burden too, in a sense.

 

 

Also, Loken is obviously a giraffe, I've always held on to that. Just look at his long neck, it's like he could meet the Warmaster eye to eye without going tiptoes!

[b1soul]

If Loken is a psyker, his ability seems even more repressed than Sevatar's. Sevatar's still manifests as he knows what opponents are going to do and things slow down around him, while he feels an uncomfortable pressure in his head. IIRC the guy communes with crows. Loken doesn't seem to have any signs.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

If Loken is a psyker, his ability seems even more repressed than Sevatar's. Sevatar's still manifests as he knows what opponents are going to do and things slow down around him, while he feels an uncomfortable pressure in his head. IIRC the guy communes with crows. Loken doesn't seem to have any signs.

This I agree with 100%. His abilities seem to have been burried deep. This is what I've been wanting to talk about but can't ever get there.

[DarkChaplain]

....you've just taken a statement of well-founded doubt which pointed out incongruities with the rest of the series and simply agreed to it in an attempt to reverse its meaning into somehow supporting your claims that Loken is a Giraffe.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][= Let's tone this down a wee bit and keep the conversation in friendly mode=][=

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

If Loken is a psyker, his ability seems even more repressed than Sevatar's. Sevatar's still manifests as he knows what opponents are going to do and things slow down around him, while he feels an uncomfortable pressure in his head. IIRC the guy communes with crows. Loken doesn't seem to have any signs.

This I agree with 100%. His abilities seem to have been burried deep. This is what I've been wanting to talk about but can't ever get there.

 

 

And yet he has gone through immense trauma and ordeals that would break others and did in fact break him. He's been pushed to his absolute limits, gone past them and managed to just about loop back around. He's been in the presence of the Emperor himself. And his powers if any, still haven't manifested at all in any way, shape or form. As has been said before, I can't see anything now awakening those abilities if they are repressed so far down that everything he has been through so far hasn't manifested them. It will just seem like the laziest writing ever now to suddenly have them appear.

 

It doesn't serve any narrative purpose to have him be a psyker now either. People like yourselves were clutching onto the theory as it would help the theory that he becomes on of the Grey Knights founders. Narratively that is the only reason to have him be a psyker. With just half a dozen books to go, what purpose could it possible serve by making him a psyker now? None at all, the only thing would be a deus ex machina situation where Loken and others are about to die(again!) and suddenly he has powers and saves them. Again, this would be stupidly lazy.

 

So yes, Rubio implies there might, might, be a chance he has some ability, and yes he was going to be a Grand Master of the Grey Knights. But as again pointed out, perhaps his was to be a unique role amongst them, enuncia or be the one not a psyker as a watcher of the others. But with the Grey Knights door quite literally closed now, that takes a way the most compelling argument for him being a psyker.

 

So yeah, I'll stand by for them to throw that spanner in the works and suddenly make him one, but i am almost entirely convinced that there is no way to pull it off without it coming off as cheap and lazy.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

....you've just taken a statement of well-founded doubt which pointed out incongruities with the rest of the series and simply agreed to it in an attempt to reverse its meaning into somehow supporting your claims that Loken is a Giraffe.

He said if Loken was a psyker his abilities would seem to be even more repressed then Sevetars. This I agree with 100%. Im not not sure how having ones psychic abilities repressed makes them a non psyker. To it makes them a latent psyker.

 

I feel like I'm talking through a phone that is really just two plastic cups, connected by a string. Nothing I say is heared like I feel I said it.

 

(No hard feelings towards anyone on this)

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

If Loken is a psyker, his ability seems even more repressed than Sevatar's. Sevatar's still manifests as he knows what opponents are going to do and things slow down around him, while he feels an uncomfortable pressure in his head. IIRC the guy communes with crows. Loken doesn't seem to have any signs.

This I agree with 100%. His abilities seem to have been burried deep. This is what I've been wanting to talk about but can't ever get there.

And yet he has gone through immense trauma and ordeals that would break others and did in fact break him. He's been pushed to his absolute limits, gone past them and managed to just about loop back around. He's been in the presence of the Emperor himself. And his powers if any, still haven't manifested at all in any way, shape or form. As has been said before, I can't see anything now awakening those abilities if they are repressed so far down that everything he has been through so far hasn't manifested them. It will just seem like the laziest writing ever now to suddenly have them appear.

 

It doesn't serve any narrative purpose to have him be a psyker now either. People like yourselves were clutching onto the theory as it would help the theory that he becomes on of the Grey Knights founders. Narratively that is the only reason to have him be a psyker. With just half a dozen books to go, what purpose could it possible serve by making him a psyker now? None at all, the only thing would be a deus ex machina situation where Loken and others are about to die(again!) and suddenly he has powers and saves them. Again, this would be stupidly lazy.

 

So yes, Rubio implies there might, might, be a chance he has some ability, and yes he was going to be a Grand Master of the Grey Knights. But as again pointed out, perhaps his was to be a unique role amongst them, enuncia or be the one not a psyker as a watcher of the others. But with the Grey Knights door quite literally closed now, that takes a way the most compelling argument for him being a psyker.

 

So yeah, I'll stand by for them to throw that spanner in the works and suddenly make him one, but i am almost entirely convinced that there is no way to pull it off without it coming off as cheap and lazy.

We are probably gonna find out Loken was never intended to become a GK grandmaster and this is some machination of Malcadors.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

....you've just taken a statement of well-founded doubt which pointed out incongruities with the rest of the series and simply agreed to it in an attempt to reverse its meaning into somehow supporting your claims that Loken is a Giraffe.

He said if Loken was a psyker his abilities would seem to be even more repressed then Sevetars. This I agree with 100%. Im not not sure how having ones psychic abilities repressed makes them a non psyker. To it makes them a latent psyker.

 

I feel like I'm talking through a phone that is really just two plastic cups, connected by a string. Nothing I say is heared like I feel I said it.

 

(No hard feelings towards anyone on this)

 

 

I definitely see your point. I won't dismiss the possibility out of hand. Loken could very well be a latent psycher (very latent indeed). My main concern is that if this is the direction the Heresy Cabal is going, can the assigned author pull it off convincingly. If it is and they can, I'll be happy

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

....you've just taken a statement of well-founded doubt which pointed out incongruities with the rest of the series and simply agreed to it in an attempt to reverse its meaning into somehow supporting your claims that Loken is a Giraffe.

He said if Loken was a psyker his abilities would seem to be even more repressed then Sevetars. This I agree with 100%. Im not not sure how having ones psychic abilities repressed makes them a non psyker. To it makes them a latent psyker.

 

I feel like I'm talking through a phone that is really just two plastic cups, connected by a string. Nothing I say is heared like I feel I said it.

 

(No hard feelings towards anyone on this)

I definitely see your point. I won't dismiss the possibility out of hand. Loken could very well be a latent psycher (very latent indeed). My main concern is that if this is the direction the Heresy Cabal is going, can the assigned author pull it off convincingly. If it is and they can, I'll be happy

Well they have to give Dan Abnet the last say right? If he cant get Loken right ...