Buried Dagger: Doom of the Death Guard

[SkimaskMohawk]

Wait. What happened to flight of the Eisenstein? It was pretty early in the series where legion culture wasn't so fleshed out, but it for sure covered the death guard. It's like saying Horus Rising doesn't cover the Luna wolves

[Tymell]

Wait. What happened to flight of the Eisenstein? It was pretty early in the series where legion culture wasn't so fleshed out, but it for sure covered the death guard. It's like saying Horus Rising doesn't cover the Luna wolves

 

For me, even back when it first came out, Flight of the Eisenstein always felt more like a Garro/Knights-Errant novel than a real Death Guard novel.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Tymell

[SkimaskMohawk]

It was for sure about garro, but he was the only death guard character we had really seen; he was the introduction to the legion. Knights errant stuff wasn't involved at all.

 

Now it certainly feels lighter on the deathguard culture looking back, but there wasn't a lot to go on back then. Luna wolves/soh had the mournival, but that was it. EC had the perfectionistic side, but it was mostly the arrogance and superiority was shown off. DA had almost no legion insight, all the Order; Legion was deliberately muddled. In fact, a thousand sons was the first to really flesh out culture.

[Tymell]

It was for sure about garro, but he was the only death guard character we had really seen; he was the introduction to the legion. Knights errant stuff wasn't involved at all.

 

Now it certainly feels lighter on the deathguard culture looking back, but there wasn't a lot to go on back then. Luna wolves/soh had the mournival, but that was it. EC had the perfectionistic side, but it was mostly the arrogance and superiority was shown off. DA had almost no legion insight, all the Order; Legion was deliberately muddled. In fact, a thousand sons was the first to really flesh out culture.

 

To each their own, but for me, it's not about how much/little legion culture building there is, and I felt this way about it even back in the day. For me, it's more about where its focus is, and Flight of the Eisenstein always felt like its focus was on Garro and his journey towards the Knights-Errant, rather than the Death Guard legion.

 

None of that is intended as a criticism though. It's just that I don't think of Flight of the Eisenstein as "the Death Guard book".

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's fair. I think it just comes down to the various authors; adb, Wright and French are great for giving legions nuance and culture. Slaves to darkness is my "the sons of Horus book" more than any other book as an example; path of heaven is my "the emperors children book" more than fulgrim.

[Nazguire]

Right lads, I read Buried Dagger over the weekend.

 

 

As others have mentioned, this book is two stories.  One is the Death Guard being hit by the Destroyer Plague and converting fully to Nurgle and the other is about the original 8 Grey Knights.

 

First, the Grey Knights story was boring and skim-worthy.  I found myself skimming through these pages.  There was a lot of potential for this part of the story - Malcador explaining more his rationale for starting up the Grey Knights, some sorcerous knowledge here and there, some understanding of why the first 8 had different names etc.  Instead there was this odd plot which culminated in the reveal that Rubio was a sleeper agent from way back on Calth with a mission to kill Malcador.  Apparently, Erebus was told by the "Octed" that Rubio was important and slipped in a subconscious "kill code" which would make Rubio attempt to kill Malcador.

 

So Erebus, during the Battle of Calth, knew to find Rubio and do this, based on the Chaos Gods telling him this.  It just felt very shoehorned in for no reason other than it could be.  It took the focus away from the founding 8 of the Grey Knights, the last minute preparations at the Imperial Palace or the general terror the Terran population was feeling every day.

 

Garro and Loken were also there with their own respective subplots.  Loken was meant to be part of the founding Grey Knights, but chose not to.  Garro was not selected to be a Grey Knight to begin with, which was surprising to me.  Assuming that he will die in the Siege.

 

Loken to me is (now) one of the most useless characters going.  I never could reconcile his "resurrection" after the original trilogy.  It felt like a pandering to a fan base which doesn't know what it wants.  But yes, he will be at the Siege of Terra, determined to fight Horus and the Sons of Horus to atone for his Legion's treachery.  I'm not sure what Loken has contributed to the HH series since Galaxy in Flames, but we will find out soon.

 

I respect to the Death Guard, I disagree that the "conversion" was rushed.  Yes, if they had removed the Garro/Knights Errant/Malcador/Rubio subplots from the book, it could have lent itself to a slow burn surrender by Mortarion.  But I felt that, given the way the book was separated into two novels in one, it was handled ok.  Typhus came across as a cackling villain and Mortarion appeared to be a bit too slow on the uptake.  More pages, or less subplots, could have allowed more room for development.

 

The flash backs to Barbarus were great, though the part where Typhus had captured an Overlord just felt a tad too comic book "it was always going to happen" for me.  Also, as mentioned, there is an inconsistency as to whether Typhus is Terran or Barbaran, and how he went from Librarian to First Captain so quickly, etc etc.

 

The critical issue for me in respect to the Death Guard was the lack of character development.  We had a bunch of Death Guard characters introduced who were interchangeable. Morarg was no different to Skorvall who was no different to Ruieq.  Again, page count and too many subplots probably robbed these guys of any meaningful development.

 

In all, probably a 6/10.  An entertaining read, some interesting ideas but lacks the character and plot depth that a really good novel needs to draw in the reader.

 

[rendingon1+]

Finished it yesterday - they could finish the HH serie on Slaves instead. This book leaves a very bad taste and for me it cemented Swallows place as a part of unholy HH trinity with Thorpe and Kyme.

As people pointed out, Mortarion is played so easily by anyone. Entire Typhon arc (started by Thorpe, no suprise it is bad) is just stupid. One day Mortarion's first captain disappears with a sizable chunk of XIV legion without a word, he ignores ORDERS to come back for several years and when he finally sows up as an explenation he just throws some bull:cuss about spiritual journey "to find his place" and Mortarion is like "ok". Than he practically hands Typhon command of the fleet golly gee??

"Navigator plot" was also forced and super dumb "Yeah, they are totally traitors, believe me, I'm executing them right now" - and Mortrion does nothing. Also are we to believe that a handfull of Astartes psykers can guide several hundred ships through the warp. C'mon... Unless answear is of course: Nurgle.

I understand that boring Barbarus part was just written to justify why Mortarion is so very forgiving towards Typhon and it failed even in that regard. Except for some "Typhon helped, Typhon friend" reminders the bond between them does not look very strong or special. I also hate how Swallow just grabbed almost every named DG character and put them in a Mortarions Liberation army, not to mention they were all grown man apparently.

Mortrions and XIV fall was really cheap, rushed and fake.

 

Knight Errant part was okayish (like4/10 okay), though definitely too long and lacking focus IMHO. Basically Knight Errant do all dirty and clandestine jobs for Malcador - but for what :cuss purpose?  These missions do not represent a first steps on a road to become first Grey Knights, KE learn almost nothing about chaos, how to fight it or even recognize it. So what it was all about? To learn obedience? And Malcador's vision of demonic reality reminds me a lot about "Legion" Kabal and "False Gods" Horus' vision on Davin ie. "This is totally what will happen, believe me". Through out these years Swallow could really make stories where KE are slowly prepred for GK job, but what for? Better focus on Garro, one of the most boring characters in the entire series. BTW how dumb Garro has to be to doubt Malcador and his methods after seeing all he has seen? Assassinations, chaotic cults springing everywhere, Horus' spies etc. and he still is "hurr durr, I want to fight fair".

 

Rubio arc in this book is just a giant stinking pile of :cuss.

 

Oh, since Knights Errant are no more and DG from Eisenstein are now free (how?) - under who's jurisdiction will they serve now? Question is unanswered of course but I think it's kind of important - especially since they all were imprisoned in secrecy. Shouldn't Dorn just put them down? (he should)

 

Disgusting, really. I wonder how deep BL nepotism runs, I'm sure they are perfectly  aware how people are disappointed by Thorpe, Kyme and Swallows and yet they still write.

[Tymell]

Though I agree with plenty of these criticisms, to be fair on a couple of points:

 

I also hate how Swallow just grabbed almost every named DG character and put them in a Mortarions Liberation army, not to mention they were all grown man apparently.

 

The only Death Guard characters who appear as part of his army on Barbarus are Typhon, Morarg, Kalgaro, Rask, Murnau, Lothsul and Skorvall, which is hardly "almost every named DG character". Besides, other authors pick someone from the FW books and get praised for it, but here it's negative?

 

I don't disagree on the age issue though, that felt odd to me too, but then I guess it's a problem various authors have to deal with, since typically Astartes need to be recruited so young.

 

BTW how dumb Garro has to be to doubt Malcador and his methods after seeing all he has seen? Assassinations, chaotic cults springing everywhere, Horus' spies etc. and he still is "hurr durr, I want to fight fair".

 

I don't think it was a case of Garro doubting Malcador when it comes to the threat Horus poses, or wanting to fight fair. He doubts the Sigillite, but that's due to Malcador's obsessive secretism and clandestine behaviour. And after having the one who is effectively your father and most of your brothers turn traitor, wouldn't you be a bit cautious about serving someone without question?

[Khornflakes]

finished this one yesterday and did enjoy it. flowed a lot better than the last HH i read - Titandeath...that dragged...

 

the whole change from the Death Guard's fall from sudden to something that seemed to have been planned for Morty's lifetime was grand from my POV, but then i've got no special interest in DG. came across like final realisation and acceptance from Mortarion that he's been manipulated(?) all his life to get to this point.

 

The opinion that Mort was blind/ an idiot in not spotting Typhon's work..grand in hindsight, but if you still think someone's your bezzie mate from way back then you're going to cut them some leeway

 

Loken's refusal to be a founder of the GK was interesting. something got me thinking that he's gonna be the fella on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit that Horus flays before the Emperor annihilates him.

 

[rendingon1+]

Though I agree with plenty of these criticisms, to be fair on a couple of points:

 

I also hate how Swallow just grabbed almost every named DG character and put them in a Mortarions Liberation army, not to mention they were all grown man apparently.

 

The only Death Guard characters who appear as part of his army on Barbarus are Typhon, Morarg, Kalgaro, Rask, Murnau, Lothsul and Skorvall, which is hardly "almost every named DG character". Besides, other authors pick someone from the FW books and get praised for it, but here it's negative?

 

I don't disagree on the age issue though, that felt odd to me too, but then I guess it's a problem various authors have to deal with, since typically Astartes need to be recruited so young.

 

Well, mayby I went a bit too far lol. But I don't like borrowing FW characters if they have no bigger role than droping few lines justlike Durak.

 

BTW how dumb Garro has to be to doubt Malcador and his methods after seeing all he has seen? Assassinations, chaotic cults springing everywhere, Horus' spies etc. and he still is "hurr durr, I want to fight fair".

 

I don't think it was a case of Garro doubting Malcador when it comes to the threat Horus poses, or wanting to fight fair. He doubts the Sigillite, but that's due to Malcador's obsessive secretism and clandestine behaviour. And after having the one who is effectively your father and most of your brothers turn traitor, wouldn't you be a bit cautious about serving someone without question?

Well...He did pledge his unquestioning loyalty to Malcador in the Flight. After all these years serving M. he should at least get used to it if not finally understanding that secrecy is one of the best defenses in this kind of war. Every other knight errant gets along, they undestand the neccessity (even though they admit it's extremely annoying)  but for Garro it is a serious problem/conflict.

Edited March 3, 2019 by rendingon1+

[DarkChaplain]

Garro

Made it clear in Oath of Moment, the moment he actually was supposed to swear fealty and obedience to Malcador, that he would serve the Emperor first. Malcador was miffed about it even then, but Garro insisted that he would not serve Malcador if it could mean going against the Emperor in some fashion.

It's not the first time the two have been at odds over things - including the secrecy surrounding Titan and the way Malcador would sacrifice innocents who just happened to find out a tiny hint about it, and the lengths he'd go to to take them out. Nevermind Garro's entanglement with Keeler...

 

It's very much in character for Garro to defy the Sigillite on things he does not agree with.

[mc warhammer]

i feel like rendingon1+ has a point about the KE being used as black ops rather than receiving training to prep them for founding GK. it might have been cool seeing them instructed specifically in ways to face chaos and being given knowledge that would melt the average astarte’s brain

[Roomsky]

I do agree that the character work on the DG was a little thin. Skorrvall was the only one I hadn't heard of before, but I guess he was in a Forgeworld book as well. Certainly the focus should have remained on Morty, Typhon, etc, but even a bit more character for that first to fall to the Destroyer would have gone a long way.

 

As for nepotism for Swallow, keep in mind he wrote some of the best selling and prolific books all series, in Nemesis and Fear to Tread. That, combined with his works in several other settings as well, probably means he brings in good sales, YMMV factor be damned.

[Moonreaper666]

What are the chances that all of the Grey Founders survive the Heresy and Scouring?

 

 

Garro and Loken are going to be in the siege with Loken confronting Aximand

 

 

Who would Garro fight during the Siege?

 

 

It would be great that after Khârn or Lucius kills several named characters in one-sided fights Garro on his own stops one of them!

[nagashnee]

Finished it. The hidden dagger the title refers to is the grey knight half of the book stabbing the Death Guard story and fan hopes in the back with more subtetly and skill then any character in the book will ever muster.

 

How anyone can defend the sleeper agent subplot as anything less then a contender for stupidest idea in the series is beyond me.

 

4/10.

[rendingon1+]

I do agree that the character work on the DG was a little thin. Skorrvall was the only one I hadn't heard of before, but I guess he was in a Forgeworld book as well. Certainly the focus should have remained on Morty, Typhon, etc, but even a bit more character for that first to fall to the Destroyer would have gone a long way.

 

As for nepotism for Swallow, keep in mind he wrote some of the best selling and prolific books all series, in Nemesis and Fear to Tread. That, combined with his works in several other settings as well, probably means he brings in good sales, YMMV factor be damned.

Even though his books got to NYT best sellers, people are rather dissapointed with FtT or his other HH/40k creations.  As for the other settings, with all due respect - I don't care about them. I'm HH universe fan, he might be the best writer in x setting but here he's at the bottom. My opinion of course.

Edited March 4, 2019 by rendingon1+

[Roomsky]

 

I do agree that the character work on the DG was a little thin. Skorrvall was the only one I hadn't heard of before, but I guess he was in a Forgeworld book as well. Certainly the focus should have remained on Morty, Typhon, etc, but even a bit more character for that first to fall to the Destroyer would have gone a long way.

 

As for nepotism for Swallow, keep in mind he wrote some of the best selling and prolific books all series, in Nemesis and Fear to Tread. That, combined with his works in several other settings as well, probably means he brings in good sales, YMMV factor be damned.

Even though his books got to NYT best sellers, people are rather dissapointed with FtT or his other HH/40k creations.  As for the other settings, with all due respect - I don't care about them. I'm HH universe fan, he might be the best writer in x setting but here he's at the bottom. My opinion of course.

 

 

Oh, I'm not claiming it's anything especially favorable for the fandom, I know neither of those books are especially popular around here. I certainly don't care about his contributions to Deus Ex or Star Trek either. But I would imagine it's more than enough reason for a business to justify his repeated contracting. It's the same sort of reason we're still getting mountains of Guardsman and Astartes stories, and no Romeo and Juliet on Comorragh. 

 

Money, dear boy.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Roomsky

[Tymell]

How anyone can defend the sleeper agent subplot as anything less then a contender for stupidest idea in the series is beyond me.

 

Must admit, though I didn't feel quite so vehemently as that, it bothered me too. I don't mind Horus/Erebus being able to do something like that, even slipping past Malcador's checks I could stretch to, but the question of how Erebus knew Rubio would be so important was just hand-waved away with "The warp told him".

[Izlude]

About 1/3 the way in and wanted to give my 2 cents for others who may have not read it. I'll update this as I read more but thus far I agree with the majority. It is readable but there clearly is a missed opportunity to truly make this the DG downfall that would have been memorable. I am sort of indifferent to the DG and Mortarion but absolutely was looking forward to their downfall to Nurgle as this is a major event that most would agree is critical to the story. Some thoughts:

 

1. 50/50: DG/Garro. I am actually okay with this. To me Garro was a DG who remained loyal and it makes sense to have his stuff in there. To be honest, with the DG plot the way it is...making it a full length would have been torture for reasons I will get to below based on what I have read so far.

 

2. DG and Mortarion: Like wow....Mortarion must be the most clueless Primarch. All the bits with him and Calas is just too much...a regular hummie (like me!) could have sniffed the Calas shakedown a mile away! I know Swallow was trying to better justify this "unshakable" faith of Mortarion and Typhus with the back story but the childhood stuff of how they met and whatnot was so cliche and bad. Also the parts about Typhus and the navigators...omg really!?!? I told my wife about this part (mind you she knows nothing about HH) and her response was "Wow, that guy sounds dumb...clearly his first in command is hiding something like didn't he plant those gems to set them up?" 

 

This just reinforce the fact that Mortarion has no chance at trading tactics with Guilliman in the Dark Imperium setting. Mortarion's attack plan in the Dark Imperium setting based on the first two books seem to point to this fact based on this book. 

 

3. Garro stuff: I like this arc much better thus far (which says something about the DG arc as this is suppose to be their book). I have skimmed this thread and have a sense of where it is going but still avoiding spoilers but I find it more enjoyable to read.

 

As a whole the book is easy to read as most have mentioned but the story itself is just passable with glaring issues. I think the book will sell due to the title and the "fall of the DG" but is not a homerun like Wraight's Lords of Silence...def one of my favorite books this past year. 

 

Going to ploy via the rest. Have Titandeath on hold until I paint my titans for AT! I think that book will prove to be a more enjoyable read.

 

Update: So I just finished this one:

 

-Yeah it didn't get better. The DG and the fall was just so contrived and silly...there was like no resistance, just a one page thing of how Mortarion had doubts and blah blah...okay "I am now your biatch Nurgle..." The set-up was poor which lead to a weak delivery. If this was all about the DG, could have been really cool to focus more on the change with some key characters.

 

-The best part of the book for me was more insight into Malcador. Stupid Sleeper part nonwithstanding (that was like so random and unnecessary), I really felt I got some nice insight into Malcador as a character...his regrets and sorrow. I don't think we have ever really gotten into his head but in this one I felt like I got a better sense of who he is. It was believable and I loved it. I am looking forward to the Malcador-Emperor interaction when we get to the final moments. I think it will be touching and great...assuming the right author and they don't do the whole ":cuss emperor thing" who tells Malcador he was just a tool blah blah. 

 

Overall not a good read but unfortunately as it is the "last" one in the series before the Siege, had to read it. I never skipped over so many parts..sad thing is that now reading the threads didn't miss a thing. At least it was better than Battle for the Abyss where i stoped 1/4 the way in and never looked back although I may never get those 2 days of my life back.

 

Had so much potential...I could just say if author X did it, it would have been different...but I won't (although so true!). 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Izlude

[Rob P]

I'm only a couple of chapters in but plot B only has that oomph if Garro dies.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I kind of liked the idea of the meaningless babbling coming together. It shows some of the long cons Chaos go for, in knowing the loyalists would sequester them all together an unknowingly make it a problem. It 'activating' Rubio was pretty lame though. I'd have preferred it to flicker the Astronomican or put pressure on the gate under the Throne and sideline the Emperor more or something. Not a huge blow to the loyalists, but just enough to make them doubt their own decision making and keep them off balance

[DarkChaplain]

I mean, assassinating the Sigillite would have been as harsh a blow as could have been dealt. Malcador IS the Regent and for all his own schemes, he's running the place next to Dorn. Without him, the bureaucracy left would collapse, many backup plans for the Imperium would be lost, and he's the biggest psychic threat to the traitors on the Throneworld next to the Emperor. Take out the Sigillite and the Palace will tear itself apart from the inside, no matter how Dorn fortifies the walls. The Emperor has delegated many vital tasks to Malcador, not just in his absence.

 

Don't forget that Malcador was also supposed to be the one to censure Lorgar and the Word Bearers at Monarchia, and the Emperor only took the stage after Lorgar's violent outburst against him. The Sigillite is, for all intents, the highest value target on Terra, right beside the Emperor and Dorn. Even with Sanguinius and Jaghatai around, it is those three who are most vital to Terra's survival. And, in the end, it will be Malcador who holds the Golden Throne while the Emperor is teleporting to the Vengeful Spirit. Without him, that would have been impossible.

[Moonreaper666]

I mean, assassinating the Sigillite would have been as harsh a blow as could have been dealt. Malcador IS the Regent and for all his own schemes, he's running the place next to Dorn. Without him, the bureaucracy left would collapse, many backup plans for the Imperium would be lost, and he's the biggest psychic threat to the traitors on the Throneworld next to the Emperor. Take out the Sigillite and the Palace will tear itself apart from the inside, no matter how Dorn fortifies the walls. The Emperor has delegated many vital tasks to Malcador, not just in his absence.

 

Don't forget that Malcador was also supposed to be the one to censure Lorgar and the Word Bearers at Monarchia, and the Emperor only took the stage after Lorgar's violent outburst against him. The Sigillite is, for all intents, the highest value target on Terra, right beside the Emperor and Dorn. Even with Sanguinius and Jaghatai around, it is those three who are most vital to Terra's survival. And, in the end, it will be Malcador who holds the Golden Throne while the Emperor is teleporting to the Vengeful Spirit. Without him, that would have been impossible.

Without Malcador, Chaos would have won

 

 

Without Malcador, no Inquisition and Grey Knights

 

 

Funny enough, this also happened during the Sabbat Worlds Crusade in the book Anarch!

 

 

I guess it is the nature of Chaos to turn people into tools, to seed mistrust and paranoia

[TheRealMcCagh]

I didn't mean to imply that an attempt on Malcador was small potatoes, just that making Rubio a sleeper agent way back on Calth was a little ham-fisted. You'd also think that Malcador of all people would have picked up on it when he inducted Rubio into the KE.

[DarkChaplain]

Agreed, this really hasn't been foreshadowed at all in prior works. And it's not like Swallow wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so, especially seeing how he edited the Garro audio dramas, which feature Rubio in multiple works, into that novel-length numbered release. Could've at least done some prepwork there...

 

I started it now, seeing how it finally hit Audible too. Though once again I am baffled by the incompetence of the folks in charge of maintaining their Audible listings. Instead of adding "Book 54" to the series metadata on the page (or the downloaded audible book), it is part of the title. So the book on my Kindle appears as "Book 54: The Buried Dagger" as well, rather than it just being the storepage being screwed up.

 

Nice one, BL... not that they've ever been consistent. Vulkan: Lord of Drakes is listed as The Horus Heresy rather than Primarchs like, for example, Corax: Lord of Shadows, Heralds of the Siege or Slaves to Darkness have no book numbering at all, and the Eight Lamentations audio drama for AoS is assigned to Warhammer 40,000 as its series. God damn it, hire somebody who can be bothered to check your database entries and submissions to Amazon/Audible already. It's about time.

 

I have to say though, I like that Swallow structured the book in 7 and 7 chapters and a coda at the end. You know, with 7 being the number of Nurgle and all that. Seven chapters, seven intervals. It's thematic, if nothing else.

Though at the same time, his chapters are, once again, as always, far too long for comfort. The shortest chapter in the audiobook, coda aside, is 43 minutes, with the bulk being 50-60, and 3 up to 65 minutes.

As neat as the 7 and 7 gimmick is, there's a point where you should just break chapters up for ease of reading. Which would have been simple enough with the Interval chapters, seeing how they are already split by location/time markers as is...

Edited March 5, 2019 by DarkChaplain