Heavy Flamer Land Speeders - Vigilus Ravenwing

[dreadmad]

So I was thinking today about the potential utility of the double Heavy Flamer Landspeeder - at 78 points a pop they're pretty comparable to a minimum squad of bikes (similar price to a minimum squad of bikes, same toughness/wounds although worse against multi-wound shots, better movespeed/fly keyword).

 

They are obviously good at flying up the board and harassing flanks - but I feel they may also have a place against Aeldari/Nids/anyone who can spam a negative to hit. In this case you'd pretty much be suiciding the speeder to negate the minus to hit, but you have a good chance at getting that wound through (assuming t6+ with a 3+ you'll be getting on average 1.17 unsaved wounds - enough to activate the stratagem).

 

They have a threat range of 24" (assuming you don't waste the Speed of the Raven Stratagem on them) so you can get them where you need them pretty reliably. Am I vastly overestimating the utility they bring - and would I be better off just bringing MSU biker squads?

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Skorp]

Im very interested in building some flamer speeders, with a talonmaster I feel like theyd be fun, but cant comment on how they compare efficiency wise to bikes.

[ValourousHeart]

Well assuming your plan works perfectly you burned a CP for the formation, sacrificed a unit, burn another CP to get +1 to hit against a single unit this turn.

What is your plan if your opponent decides to bring 2 units, or the game goes to turn 2?

 

While I understand being willing to sacrifice a unit in order to secure a winning position.

I don't understand why you would build an army around a telegraphed trick that puts you into losing position if even the slightest miscalculation occurs.

"You haven't beaten me, you sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke."

 

Speeders are really good this edition.

As you pointed out they are similarly pointed as a bike squad, but instead of bolters and assault weapons, they carry heavy weapons.

Sure a krak missile or melta gun could roll well, and either take out 1 bike or 1 speeder.

But if the krak or melta roll average they'll still kill a bike a turn, but take 2-3 turns to kill a speeder.

 

For my 2000 point list, I run 14 speeders and could have fit in more, except that I want to run a flyer and a couple of dreads.

In my experience, the best performing speeders are in this order.

 

1. HB / AC - 82 points

2. MM / AC - 94 points

3. HB / TML - 98 points

 

I also run a MM / HF (86 points) in my assault cannon squadrons, but the flamer doesn't generally fire because of the range and is there more like a charger deterrent.

 

Now the 2nd and 3rd place are extremely close, and it really depends on if my MM and TML hit that game.

[dreadmad]

 

While I understand being willing to sacrifice a unit in order to secure a winning position.

I don't understand why you would build an army around a telegraphed trick that puts you into losing position if even the slightest miscalculation occurs.

 

 

Firstly, I don't agree taking a 78pt unit to run a similar job as bikes that also has a tech against hard to hit units you really need to kill (since Plasma, one of our big strengths is hit so hard by negatives to hit) is building an army around a telegraphed trick.

 

If your list is taking a death-ball of Black Knights anyway, you'll probably want to be taking the Vigilus Detachment anyway for the Hit & Run strat so it's not like it's much of an extra investment there either.

 

With that said, it still might be not worthwhile 

 

Your 14 Landspeeder list sounds interesting though, how do you tend to use them? If you're loading up with Heavy Weapons I assume you're staying pretty much stationary with them most of the time right? If so, what's the advantage in taking them over regular dreads? They're not much more expensive (depending on load-out), but can have better weapons - I assume you don't get all that much milage out of the multi-meltas for example?

 

Edit: And Dreads are significantly tankier/get Chapter Tactics

 

Edit edit: Had a quick nose through your profile to see if I could find a list. Love the paint scheme, and very interested to know what you run those dreadnoughts as?

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

While I understand being willing to sacrifice a unit in order to secure a winning position.

I don't understand why you would build an army around a telegraphed trick that puts you into losing position if even the slightest miscalculation occurs.

 

 

Firstly, I don't agree taking a 78pt unit to run a similar job as bikes that also has a tech against hard to hit units you really need to kill (since Plasma, one of our big strengths is hit so hard by negatives to hit) is building an army around a telegraphed trick.

 

I wasn't using "telegraph" in a derogatory sense.  To me Telegraph means predictable.  Kinda like the way DW players would use a small unit of RW just for their teleport homers.  It could be effective, but you aren't going to be surprised by it twice.

 

Your 14 Landspeeder list sounds interesting though, how do you tend to use them? If you're loading up with Heavy Weapons I assume you're staying pretty much stationary with them most of the time right? If so, what's the advantage in taking them over regular dreads? They're not much more expensive (depending on load-out), but can have better weapons - I assume you don't get all that much milage out of the multi-meltas for example?

 

Here are the models I use in that list.

 

Sableclaw

Talonmaster

Speeder Squad 1 - 2x HB/AC, 1x MM/AC, and 1x MM/HF

Speeder Squad 2 - 2x HB/AC, 1x MM/AC, and 1x MM/HF

Speeder Squad 3 - 4x HB/TML

Ven Dread 1 - Twin Autocannon, DCCW, Stormbolter

Ven Dread 2 - Twin Autocannon, DCCW, Stormbolter

Dark Talon

 

I almost never stay stationary.  I'm always moving in for the kill and out of range of other assets.  I make the most out of the 20-inch movement characteristic the 3 speeder squadrons have to bring the most guns into range of the isolated elements of your army and wipe them off the board.  The extra base movement means that I can generally keep at least 2 squads near one or both of my characters.  If you castle up, it is harder for my army to pick you apart, but it also means you aren't going after objectives... so I switch gears and collect objectives and win that way.  I have the speed to get where I need to go and can even take a longer route to keep LOS blocking terrain in the way of your scarier units until I can get in position to deal with them.   The army is a highly mobile gun line, so I tend not to advance... but advancing is always an option I can use if I need extra movement or I'm out of range.

 

The rest of it is just a numbers game.  2 MM in the unit, hitting on 4s means 1 hit, and likely 3 wounds.  18 AC shots hitting on 4s means 9 hits and 5-6 wounds.  9 HB shots is another 4 hits and 2 wounds.  And that is without factoring in either Sableclaw or Talonmaster.  If dealing with MCU Tau or IG, I can have 1 of the AC squadrons engage up to 3 x 5 man units with a high probability that I'll wipe out all 3.  And if they are close enough together I could charge the survivors with a high probability of finishing them off.

 

Defensive strength of the list is the 6 wounds and no damage table.  If I do 4-5 wounds to your infantry squad, you are going to have to pull 2 to 5 marines and all of the guns they were carrying.  That could be 10 rapid fire bolters or worse, your plasma guns.  If you do 4-5 wounds to one of my speeder squadrons, you have done nothing to my offensive capabilities.  Also I can't tell you how many times I've had a speeder with one would left tank a 6 damage meltagun shot, or better yet fail to hit or wound.

 

The Talonmaster is the warlord with a Heavenfall Blade and Brilliant Strategist.  I only have 4 CP, or 3 if I take the RW attack squadron.  But I tend to only use command rerolls when my TML roll a 1 on the damage dice.

 

Edit: And Dreads are significantly tankier/get Chapter Tactics

 

Edit edit: Had a quick nose through your profile to see if I could find a list. Love the paint scheme, and very interested to know what you run those dreadnoughts as?

 

Thanks, I'm really proud of my Dreadnought conversions.  I wanted a Venerable Ravenwing Dreadnought, that looked like it could reasonably keep up with the bikes and speeders when traveling cross country.  I had thought about possibly using the Land Speeder Tempest and claiming that the closed cockpit was the sarcophagus, but I wanted it to be a dreadnought that could fight in CC.  So I replaced the legs with the tracks from a thunder fire cannon.  That made the dread fill out its base a bit more than a traditional dread, which meant that the normal dread arms were a little too small, so the DCCW came from an Ironclad Dread, and the autocannon came from the IG Hydra. 

 

As for chapter tactics.  I do miss out on Defenders of Humanity because I don't run troops, but if you don't have objective secured you deal with claiming objectives the old fashion way... "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

 

The other ability my speeders miss out on is Grim Resolve.  But since I'm constantly moving, it doesn't look like I would ever get to use it.  It is nice for my Dreads, but since I brought them for their DCCW, I tend to move them as well.

 

The second part of Grim Resolve would be nice but it wasn't likely to have much effect on my speeders either.  First off the unit is only 4 models and my leadership is 7 which means if I lose 1 model I can't fail.  If I lose 2 I could only lose 1 by rolling a 6.  And if I lose 3, I only have 1 left to lose.  And second I get ATSKNF which means I'm more likely to succeed with this roll.  My dreadnoughts are 1 model units, and so will never be affected by Morale.

 

As I mentioned before I run them as Venerable Dreadnoughts with a Twin Autocannon and a DCCW w/ Stormbolter.  Although I do have the points to replace the Twin Autocannon with a Twin Lascannon, if needed.

[dreadmad]

I've got 3 old salvaged Landspeeders on my desk right now and i'm trying to not cave to the temptation to buy another 11 - because that list looks like it would be incredibly fun to play! That's really interesting - is it a flavor choice to not run that with 3 min units of scouts for the Command Points so you have a full mech army, or do you think the loss of 2 speeders would not be worth the command point trade off? 

 

I assume it's pretty similar to Eldar, in that you're super mobile & can bring serious hurt at range - but if you make any positioning mistakes you pay massively for it, as you haven't got all that much melee threat from about 60% of your points.

 

Do you find you struggle against Knight lists? I guess you could run your HQ into them, but you're still only looking at 9-10 wounds from the pair of them since you can't fight twice (well, unless the HQ dies).

 

Thanks for putting so much effort into replying, you've definitely got me considering running some Landspeeders - I just don't know what/how many yet!

[ValourousHeart]

I've got 3 old salvaged Landspeeders on my desk right now and i'm trying to not cave to the temptation to buy another 11 - because that list looks like it would be incredibly fun to play! That's really interesting - is it a flavor choice to not run that with 3 min units of scouts for the Command Points so you have a full mech army, or do you think the loss of 2 speeders would not be worth the command point trade off? 

 

My reasons have changed over the years, but I guess the most applicable reason at the moment is that I finally got my RW vehicles painted last year and I like playing with a fully painted army.  All of my speeders are painted and none of my scouts are.

 

Also I like playing an army that most people dismiss based on past prejudices and surprising them with its effectiveness.

 

My first army was sisters of battle which relies heavily on lots of models.  So when I want to play that style I play using my sisters.  With my RW I've always focused on making it a run all over the board type of army, that excels at overwhelming small sections of your army.

 

I assume it's pretty similar to Eldar, in that you're super mobile & can bring serious hurt at range - but if you make any positioning mistakes you pay massively for it, as you haven't got all that much melee threat from about 60% of your points.

 

Yes, sort of.  The army does win/lose in the movement phase.  However, speeders got a lot better in CC than they were before and they are not the worst things in CC anymore.  Speeders are still garbage in CC compared to assault marines, TDA, and genestealers.  But speeders are decent vs cultists, IG and Tau.

 

And don't forget CC against vehicles.  They are more likely to hit against tanks and have a slim chance to wound.  Then they have the fly keyword so can fall back and shoot, where the tank usually can't.  And speaking of the fly keyword, they can charge a flyer.

 

Do you find you struggle against Knight lists? I guess you could run your HQ into them, but you're still only looking at 9-10 wounds from the pair of them since you can't fight twice (well, unless the HQ dies).

 

Thanks for putting so much effort into replying, you've definitely got me considering running some Landspeeders - I just don't know what/how many yet!

 

We only have 2 IK players at my LGS, and I'm one of them.  So I haven't faced Kights with this list yet.  But given how my Knights have performed vs how my RW has performed vs the same armies, my Knights deal damage a lot faster than my speeders do and they shake off more damage too.

 

Given my experience playing Knights, I would probably try to focus down the Knights one at a time and play on the fact that I'm not infantry so I have a chance to block the knights in CC prevent him from shooting at me.  Although since my Knight list is built around getting Knights into CC, it would be really bad to have my speeders in CC when a second knight charges in.

[dreadmad]

I have (more, sorry) questions!

 

Do you find you struggle to hold objectives at all? I'm looking at going to a 1750pt Maelstrom Tournament at the end of March, and I can't get the thought of a Landspeeder list out of my head. I've added some scouts for objective humping & a Librarian for some minor Psykers protection (although tbh I could always drop him for a Talonmaster)

 

An initial list might look something like this;

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [105 PL, 1726pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian on Bike [8 PL, 133pts]: 2) Aversion, 6) Mind Wipe, Foe-Smiter, Force axe

. Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

. Warlord: Brilliant Strategist

 

Sammael in Sableclaw [11 PL, 216pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 65pts]

. Heavy Weapon Scout: Heavy bolter

. 3x Scout (Boltgun)

. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 75pts]

. Heavy Weapon Scout: Missile launcher

. 3x Scout (Boltgun)

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]: 4x Scout (Boltgun)

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Ravenwing Land Speeders [24 PL, 344pts]

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Multi-melta

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy flamer, Multi-melta

 

Ravenwing Land Speeders [24 PL, 344pts]

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Multi-melta

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy flamer, Multi-melta

 

Ravenwing Land Speeders [18 PL, 294pts]

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

 

+ Flyer +

 

Ravenwing Dark Talon [8 PL, 200pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter

 

++ Total: [105 PL, 1726pts] ++

 

This gives me more CP to play with, however does lose the 2 Dread's and a Typhoon Landspeeder. I'm half tempted to try and fit a Darkshroud in here - although at almost 10% of my points it's a tough sell.

 

Also, the Beta Bolter rules will be in effect - so I'd be tempted to drop some speeders for another Dark Talon & maybe some MSU of Bikers. Any thoughts on this?

[ValourousHeart]

I have (more, sorry) questions!

 

Do you find you struggle to hold objectives at all? I'm looking at going to a 1750pt Maelstrom Tournament at the end of March, and I can't get the thought of a Landspeeder list out of my head. I've added some scouts for objective humping & a Librarian for some minor Psykers protection (although tbh I could always drop him for a Talonmaster)

 

No worries, I love the army and the way it plays.

 

Objectives are an interesting issue.  The game has a number of different ways Objectives are scored, and the Vigilus campaign has introduced some really cool win conditions.  So depending on which type of objective you are concerned with the answer is different.

 

For the basic objectives, we have Slay the Warlord, First Blood, and Line Breaker.  Line breaker is super easy given how fast speeders can move.  First blood is also easy with how many heavy weapons they carry combined with the current meta favoring MSU.  Slay the Warlord is the toughest of these 3 because of the inherent protections characters get, however, speeders have the movement to get to characters and the firepower to get closer targets out of the way.  Having the equivalent of 2 devastator squads shoot up a character should be sufficient to do the trick, and if not have a second squad of speeders shoot at him too.

 

Objective Marker missions generally fall into 3 categories: Score every turn, Score at the end, and Random active.  Random active, where the objective you have to control is determined at the start of each turn, is probably the easiest for speeders to score and deny because of their speed and firepower.  Hold at the end is the next easiest because we get all game to clear enemy units off objectives and then can race to claim or deny during our last 1-2 movement phases.  Score every turn is the hardest for speeders because it forces you to give up your greatest strength, your movement.  The best advice for this type of game is to focus on keeping your opponent at a low score so that you can focus on the other win conditions, and second plan your movement carefully, sometimes you'll be able to move up and take an objective while also putting yourself in range to clear off another objective.

 

Most other objectives usually behave similarly to one of the examples given above.  In the cases where they are unique, focus on ways to deny it to your opponent and see if an opening occurs in the game that allows you to score it.

 

This gives me more CP to play with, however does lose the 2 Dread's and a Typhoon Landspeeder. I'm half tempted to try and fit a Darkshroud in here - although at almost 10% of my points it's a tough sell.

 

Also, the Beta Bolter rules will be in effect - so I'd be tempted to drop some speeders for another Dark Talon & maybe some MSU of Bikers. Any thoughts on this?

 

Be careful when using scouts with speeders.  Players tend to throw reinforcements at units that get in trouble.  Don't fall into the trap of sacrificing a 344 point speeder unit to save a 55 point scout unit.  You might say "well duh", but you would be surprised at how easily it happens without you even realizing what you are doing.

 

I have mixed feelings about the Darkshroud.  -1 to hit is great for survivability, I love it for my AOS Wanderers army.  But for AOS it is for all units within 18 inches of my general which means I can generally get it to affect my entire army.  Whereas in 40k it is only for units within 6 inches of the Darkshroud.  Next is the Darkshroud's speed.  If you are using the Darkshroud to protect your scouts, you won't be advancing and so won't have your jink save.  If you are using it to protect your speeders even if you advance the Darkshroud you are forced to slow your speeders down in order to keep the bonus.

 

Bolters are nice with the new beta rules, however, Bolters aren't better than Heavy Bolters or Assault Cannons.  Personally, I wouldn't trade a HB/AC speeder for 3 bikes with Twin Bolters.

 

Your 3 scout squads almost cover a Dark Talon, but you have to ask is it better to have the 3 objective secured units and the 4 extra CP or getting a second Dark Talon.

 

I would look to replace the Librarian with a Talonmaster if you could.  Yes having a chance to deny enemy psykers is good, and a character that can hold his own to protect the scouts is a better alternative than having speeders do it.  However for me the difference comes down to the psykic powers vs the Talonmasters aura abilities.  The chance to cast either pyschic power is IMO straight up worse than Ignore Cover and reroll 1s to wound.  Ignore cover is essentially the same as giving your guns an extra -1 AP

 

But I wouldn't drop Sableclaw for the Talonmaster.

[dreadmad]

Thanks again for your comments. I caved, and went with what I know (plus not buying another ~9 Landspeeder), however I will be picking them up here & there on eBay when I can!