Primaris Reinforcement and Unknown Progenitors

[Dumah]

Something has been bothering my obsessive-compulsive desire to assimilate all fluff:

 

By what process are Primaris marines selected to reinforce chapters with unknown progenitors? And if, for example, a chapter of unknown origin were to receive Primaris from Ultramarines lineage, would that not lead to assimilation issues? In Plague War, one of the characters is a Primaris Sergeant who is disappointed to be sent to join the Novamarines instead of their parent Chapter. How much worse would it be if an Ultramarine-born Primaris was sent to join a random chapter with no ties to the Ultras?

 

I suppose the issue becomes moot once the technology for creating Primaris is disseminated but until that time, it seems that some Chapters may have an identity crisis on their hands.

 

Thoughts?

[Panzer]

It's entirely possible that such chapters didn't get pre-made Primaris as reinforcements at all and just got delivered the means to make their own Primaris. In that case there would still be the 'problem' of which kind of enhanced geneseed do they get but there wouldn't be any disappointment involved like with your Novamarine example so Ultramarine or Imperial Fists geneseed would probably be fine. Just not one of the ones with obvious mutations or other characteristics like Raven Guard, Salamanders, BA or SW. Probably not IH either and very unlikely DA unless they feel like risking to pick a fight with them for no reason lol

[Leif Bearclaw]

Also we're now what, at least a hundred years into Primaris being a thing (can't remember exactly how long the time skip was)? So wouldn't any 'identity crisis' be in the past now, with Chapters now just making Primaris from their regular recruitment stocks?

[Panzer]

Also we're now what, at least a hundred years into Primaris being a thing (can't remember exactly how long the time skip was)? So wouldn't any 'identity crisis' be in the past now, with Chapters now just making Primaris from their regular recruitment stocks?

 

I think it's about 200 years by now iirc.

[RikuEru]

Emperor's Spears tells us that many Chapters, especially on the side of the Imperium Nihilus never received any full grown Primaris (from the Indomitus Crusade). They only got the Technology/Knowledge to make the Primaris, delivered by a Strike Team led by Custodes.

So they made their own Primaris, with their own geneseed stocks, presumably.

 

Tho the first few (dozen) tries to make Primaris were absolute failures. They had mutations/growth issues/etc. before fully maturing and had to be put down, until they got the procedure of the Primaris Steps of the Marine Transformation absolutely right.

[Felix Antipodes]

This wouldn't be an issue if GW/BL didn't keep changing the goalposts. There are stories within the fluff which say their are means to identify the origin of geneseed and just as many that says they can't. I don't care which way they eventually jump, but I wish they would make up their minds.

[Brother Casman]

I ended up being inspired enough by this question to write a story fragment over here.

[templargdt]

This is frankly a great question that GW almost certainly didn't think through because the Primaris storyline is just a fill in to help sell the rebooted model line.  The models and need to sell drive the fluff train.

 

It's embarrassing that I didn't even think of this a guy with the Blood Ravens as his chapter.  (Yeah, I know, I know, we *do* know who which legion the Blood Ravens descend from...)

I recall reading somewhere that the High Lords of Terra can tell which legion a chapter's tithed gene seed comes from, which frankly makes a lot of sense.

 

Didn't one of the Dark Imperium books either imply or flat out state Cawl had created marines from the traitor and expunged legions gene seed, and Gulliman told him to stop?

[redmapa]

 

I recall reading somewhere that the High Lords of Terra can tell which legion a chapter's tithed gene seed comes from, which frankly makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Its in the 6th ed SM codex, there's a bit of lore for Chapters with unknown founding like the Blood Ravens that says that someone in the upper levels of the Imperium knows from where these Chapters may come from but are suppressing that knowledge to keep the Imperium safe from possibly dangerous information, could be an Inquisitor, a High Lord or perhaps a Magos in charge of geneseed tithes/maintenance.

[Panzer]

 

Didn't one of the Dark Imperium books either imply or flat out state Cawl had created marines from the traitor and expunged legions gene seed, and Gulliman told him to stop?

It said that Cawl told Guilliman that he also scanned the traitor geneseed for abnormalities but couldn't find any so they'd be theoretically good to use to make new Primaris chapters but Guilliman instantly told him not to and to drop the topic. However it's implied that Cawl still made some with traitor geneseeds simply by having chapters like the Sons of the Phoenix exist officially.

[templargdt]

 

 

Didn't one of the Dark Imperium books either imply or flat out state Cawl had created marines from the traitor and expunged legions gene seed, and Gulliman told him to stop?

It said that Cawl told Guilliman that he also scanned the traitor geneseed for abnormalities but couldn't find any so they'd be theoretically good to use to make new Primaris chapters but Guilliman instantly told him not to and to drop the topic. However it's implied that Cawl still made some with geneseeds simply by having chapters like the Sons of the Phoenix exist officially.

 

Yeah, the Sons of the Phoenix were clearly EC based.

[Dracos]

Rolando (Sons of the Phoenix Chaplain): “Heresy! Our Father is Rogal Dorn. A paint scheme doesn’t prove anything *mumble* just because we’re prettier *mumble* *mumble* “

 

 

I’d actually think it would be fun to play these guys using Dark Angel rules and similar theme of trying to hide their secret within an Inner Circle. You’d start by replacing the Deathwing Terminators with Gravis Armor units. I see a lot of fun and modeling ideals here.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Rolando (Sons of the Phoenix Chaplain): “Heresy! Our Father is Rogal Dorn. A paint scheme doesn’t prove anything *mumble* just because we’re prettier *mumble* *mumble* “

Pedro Cantor (blushing): "So tsun-tsun."

I’d actually think it would be fun to play these guys using Dark Angel rules and similar theme of trying to hide their secret within an Inner Circle. You’d start by replacing the Deathwing Terminators with Gravis Armor units. I see a lot of fun and modeling ideals here.

I think it's better these Foundings remain ignorant of their Primarch's true identity, the way the Blood Ravens are. The Dark Angels' shenanigans- the fact they KNOWINGLY and INTENTIONALLY attack Imperial allies to maintain their secrets- keep making me think of them as traitors- in deed, if not in spirit- whose every action WEAKENS the Imperium instead of strengthening it. (FYI, the Grey Knights have given me the same impression, but Titan's sons have a better excuse.)

 

The Imperium does not need "Dark Angels Version 2.0", and neither do we.

[Trevak Dal]

About "Unknown primogenitors". You would think that :cuss would be cleared up with a Maury Povitch DNA test.

 

We can replace your arm and eye with bionics, but can't tell which primarch your geneseed comes from? Riiiiiight.

[Arkangilos]

Only the person with the database can tell you the information.

 

Using the DNA test you just mentioned, let’s say you decide to take one. First you have to provide a sample. Then, you are entirely at the whims of the person you gave the sample to. If he decides to tell you, it could be truth or it could be false (as in he could lie). On top of that, someone else could literally change the database itself.

 

Let’s say your farher’s DNA is in a database. Well one day for fun you decide to find out who your father is. So you send in your DNA, and your father figure controls the information. He also knows how you want to go into politics. Turns out when he runs the DNA, your biological father (not the one who raised you) is Adolf Hitler. He decides not to tell you. In fact, he decides to completely erase that information so no one else can find out, so he goes into the database and changes the code. He then either says, “sorry, son. The database couldn’t trace it back.” Or “Wow, turns out you were John’s child!” Or even, “huh, you are mine!”

 

It is incredibly easy to change information when you are the gatekeeper.

[No Foes Remain]

Thats taking into account if the Adeptus Biologists can even be bothered to worry about Chapter #786 The Celestial Knights and where their gene-seed came from.

[Cap'm Heckus]

They’ve tried to determine the gene-fathers but haven’t found the right incense/incantation combo that makes the answer-spirit want to reveal itself...

[Dracos]

I don’t know Arkangilos .... that sounds pretty jaded for the Mechanicus and the Imperium of Mankind. I think they have an Inquisition to get at the “truth” of such matters don’t they? ;)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I don’t know Arkangilos .... that sounds pretty jaded for the Mechanicus and the Imperium of Mankind. I think they have an Inquisition to get at the “truth” of such matters don’t they? ;)

The AdMech is the only organization with independent knowledge of how most items of technology work- a list that likely includes the cogitators (computers) and other instruments used to analyze DNA, a task impossible to do by eye or by hand. I doubt the Inquisition itself can operate, maintain, or repair these instruments, which means it must ask the AdMech to do these tasks for it, which means only a Genetor (Tech-priest who specializes in genetics) can tell whether or not another Genetor is lying when he says, "This Chapter is an Ultramarines successor." Any Inquisitor who continues to doubt the AdMech's word regarding a Chapter's gene-seed, is simply out-of-luck.

[Panzer]

Marine Chapters are also pretty independent. They don't let just anyone look at their geneseed since it's literally the most valuable thing a chapter possesses. They send the required amount regularly to the AdMech so they can check how much it degraded over the years and to store it for bad times but otherwise they won't give it to anyone. And not even that happens with every chapter since there are some who simply don't send in those samples or who send in fakes etc.

[Arkangilos]

On top of those two replies, even if the Inquisitor had his own dna cogitators, he would still most likely dedicate it to one of his own personal genetors. The thing is that the lore says that they have loyalty to Mars above all others, so the only person with the Inquisitor who could tell would likely still lie. That’s also if the Inquisitor in question even cared. I think he’d be less worried about the genes and more worried about the creed. If he suspects Heresy he doesn’t need to look at their gene seed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Marine Chapters are also pretty independent. They don't let just anyone look at their geneseed since it's literally the most valuable thing a chapter possesses. They send the required amount regularly to the AdMech so they can check how much it degraded over the years and to store it for bad times but otherwise they won't give it to anyone. And not even that happens with every chapter since there are some who simply don't send in those samples or who send in fakes etc.

 

To be fair, though, those that don't send in any tend to get frowned upon. Just take a look at what happened to the Astral Claws.

[Dracos]

More likely Cawl was skimming off the top and took the seed to fuel his Primaris project ;)

[Kinstryfe]

We know that geneseed is highly prone to spontaneous mutation. Some legions had to deal with it even just during the crusade. Despite sharing the same starting geneseed, it could be possible that Chapters X and Y have both had enough subtle mutations stack up that they're no longer visibly the same geneseed, let alone easily identifiable as legion geneseed Z. It also seems to have a non-scientific quality to it in some ways, like the Primarchs, sometimes having effects on the bearers' personalities and predilections, so it may be different than a standard genetic test. Stuff like that could keep a Chapter in that dark for a good long while.

[Roderikum]

Also Iron Warriors Gene Seed is pretty stable, with a very high rate of implantation success. I doubt Cawl would not use such a wonderfull source for his new creations. BTW, did Cawl made Primaris Astral Claws?? As far as he knew when starting to make PSM they were still loyal...