How will BL make Sigismund's feats epic at the Siege?

[b1soul]

Sig probably won't be killing off any of the Traitor big shots at the Siege (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere)...

 

 

EC

Eidolon probably survives the HH

If Sig kills Lucius, that will be the second time someone somehow evades the curse of Slaanesh and Lucius somehow resurrects...probably won't happen yet again

Julius Kaesoron becomes a daemon prince post-Heresy, so that's another no

 

Iron Warriors

I'm less familiar with this lot, but IIRC, none of the more famous Warsmiths die at the Siege under circumstances potentially indicating a run-in with the Black Knight

 

Night Lords

I doubt being killed by Sig was the ultimate fate ADB and Alan Bligh had in mind when discussing the conclusion of Sev's character arc. We know that during the Scouring, the NL thought Sev was dead, but it could be unrelated to Sig or the NL could simply be mistaken.

Perhaps Sig slays the Traitor Raven Guard warrior who runs with the NL?

 

World Eaters

Perhaps Sig bests Khârn and Khorne then resurrects the Khârn? That's a theory floating around, but only a theory.

Delvarus makes it past the Heresy.

 

Death Guard

Typhon makes it of course. Was he even at the Siege?

Anyone else of note?

 

TSons

All the big names are already dead, Hathor Maat, Phosis T'Kae, Auramagma, etc.

Ahriman of course makes it, and on top of that, a duel between him and Sig would be quite odd given his prodigious psychic talents.

Amon makes it.

Sanakht the Swordsman does as well.

 

Sons of Horus

Sig couldn't engage Abaddon at the Siege, but he apparenty killed a bunch of lesser SoH in his way.

I think Aximan will face Loken, not Sig. Falkus makes it.

Sedirae is already dead.

Maybe Sig could take down Tybal Marr? Would be interesting to find out which lesser SoH Sig cut down while trying to reach Abaddon

 

Word Bearers

Argel Tal is dead

Kor Phaeron and Erebus both make it

Perhaps Sig kills Sorot Tchure? Anyone else of note?

 

Alpha Legion

Maybe Sig kills Silonius, Ingo Pech, or Herzog?

Ranko is dead.

Frankly, I don't think the AL are fond of duels, and will probably avoid them as a an inefficient method of combat.

 

 

With all that said, how will BL make Sig's killstreak sufficiently epic? I'm guessing John French will be handling the rampage of the Black Knight. I suppose he could have Sig face a large number of previously unmentioned or briefly mentioned captains and champions...and depict how Sig effortlessly dispatches them?

 

Or perhaps French could gloss over Sig's kills and simply mention how over [insert impressive number] have fallen to his blade, and maybe give us a few juicy vignettes?

 

Any thoughts?

[Roomsky]

Even though a lot of these survivors show up in books I really like post-siege, it baffles me that so many of the potentially wildcard characters were aloud to be name dropped. Eidolon? Nah bro, he's fine. Sanakht? Nah, he's in Ahriman. Julius? No. Delvarus? No. Valdor? No. 

 

I'm not saying that had to kill these guys off but I don't get why they'd publish the soul sources of their survival so close to the Siege, but before it drops. As is I guess we have Aximand getting mc-stabbed to look forward to.

[bluntblade]

I think a few Traitors definitely died before their time. I guess Sigi could take down Ekaddon, but is he really in that top tier?

[Marshal Loss]

I think a few Traitors definitely died before their time. I guess Sigi could take down Ekaddon, but is he really in that top tier?

 

Ekaddon is already (virtually certainly) dead as of Slaves to Darkness.

 

Anyway, I don't view this as an enormous problem, mainly because you can only read so many descriptions of Sigismund turning people into pork chops. Throw him as many names as possible by all means, but use the imagery to make it epic, rather than a B-list of traitors - Sigismund standing on the walls of Terra, matching his blade with every warp-tainted champion or daemonic monster that dares to face him. We all already know that Sigismund is possibly the greatest astartes fighter ever. Him beating any singular champion isn't required; his reputation already speaks for itself. So all that is necessary to make his feats epic is a suitable stage on which he can strut his stuff and a sufficiently absurd number of traitors, at least in my opinion.

[Kelborn]

I agree with Loss.

 

Tbh, I'd rather see Malcharion kicking some loyalists buds on Terra instead of a bunch of Sigismund duels.

[b1soul]

Maybe Sigismund put Malcharion into a dreadnought?

[Robbienw]

I suspect we will see him demolish some traitor champions who have become daemon princes.

[Mr. Lunde]

But aren’t we setting the expectations for epic duel scenes between ‘main characters’ quite high here? During the HH books & 40k I have read there are only a few action-duel scenes I remember fondly; most of it is just ‘bolter (sword?) porn’ that’s to me not as interesting as development of the plot, characters, etc.

If we are expecting a book with 1000 awesome duels, aren’t we possibly in for a big let down..? Similar to what Voss is saying, I’m very interested in how & what made Sigismund the first Emperors Champion and how he got the reputation and legend of his deeds at the siege, but not that interested in reading about each blow, thrust, parry & killing blow. Like what made him unbreakable figure of hatred against all traitors. What makes him tick & how does his mind work

 

I think the reason I only remember certain duels are because they surprised me or were a ‘first of a kind’.

Like Khârn vs Erebus in the fighting pits at the end of Betrayer, because of a build up that sets it as an even match; which it turns out it is not… great fun!

Or some Dreadnaughts beating each other senseless the first time I read that (cant remember where); because it was a first time, but have since been done several times with varying success.

And in Flight of Eisenstein when Dorn suddenly suckerpunches Garro out of nowhere. Didn’t see it coming, it was an early showing of a primachs abilities; great!

So hopefully they can make something like that happen in the Siege books; but its getting harder for each book I suppose.

[b1soul]

I don't think it would make sense for BL to give us blow-by-blow walkthroughs of the potentially hundreds of duels fought by Sig at the Siege.

 

I think maybe John French or whichever authour is handling it could give us a handful (maybe two or three) duels against very powerful Traitor champs to highlight Sig's status as the Angel of Death. The rest could focus on what makes him tick, how the Loyalists and Traitors view him, his interactions with other Loyalist leaders and champions, etc.

[Angel_of_Blood]

Maybe Sigismund put Malcharion into a dreadnought?

 

Wasn't Malcharion interred into the dreadnought as a result of his fight with Raguel the Sufferer, the Blood Angel who also got interred and then fought him again millennia later. Can't recall if it explicitly said in the series if it was because of him fighting the three champions he was interred, or if he defeated them and was then put in after another fight. If its the latter, then could be written to have Sigismund defeat him I guess.

 

Don't know if this was inspired from the post in my other thread, but I'll just post the same list I made there.

 

Emperors Children: Guessing there won’t be any, seeing as they go off to do...things...to the civilian population. 

 

Iron Warriors: There’s none that immediately spring to mind of actual note, which is another downside of McNeill using all his characters from 40k novels to cast his HH stories. 

 

Night Lords: Naraka and Alastor Rushal(the Raven Guard Captain) of the Kyroptera. Potential end for Sevatar. 

 

World Eaters: Skane, Kargos and Khârn, being Kharns 'death' that Khorne resurrects him from.

 

Death Guard: Kalgaro and I suppose he could fight and banish Grulgor. 

 

Sons of Horus: Aximand if he joined the fighting on the ground, but he’s surely going to be killed by Loken. Ekkadon is a solid choice, also Tybalt Marr. 

 

Thousand Sons: Just about every character I can think of that is still alive, lives past the Heresy. 

 

Word Bearers: I’ve not read any of the Word Bearers 40k books, but I’m led to believe a lot of the characters from the Heresy appear in 40k. As you mentioned, Sorot Tchure perhaps.

 

Alpha Legion: Who the :cuss knows. Seeing as Omegon seems to have indicated that the legion are done with the war. 

[b1soul]

I don't think it's ever made clear who or what maimed Malcharion unto death.

 

Malcharion is formidable and all but he's probably not in that top tier of champions (Malcharion is a good D-League player to Sigismund's "greatest of all time" Michael Jordan). So against Sig, he would probably just be another notch on the belt

 

I do think that perhaps over the course of the first couple Siege books, Traitor champions will be built up and then torn down by Sig.

[Kelborn]

I'd give Sig one epic duel. Against Khârn just as a following to their duel back in the good old days, which was also done by French (what a coincedence ;) )

 

Please let them avoid several detailed duels. Those can become boring quickly enough.

 

Something like:

Malcharion looked around. His blood was rushing through his veins. Black eyes overlooking the battlefield, searching for an opportunity to strike the enemy lines. He saw Sigismund, the cursed champion of the Emperor. His famous blade slit through the neck of [insert champion], seperating his head from his shoulders. The black knight rose his blade and yelled something, Malcharion could not hear.

"Fight your little duels, petty son of Dorn. Your victories mean nothing to us now. One day, you will fall. But before that, Terra will be ours!"

 

Third persons views on Sigs duels would be more than enough for me. As I said, I'd rather like to see some others shine, for example Malcharion. He was such a cool character in the NL trilogy and yet, we haven't seen anything from him until now.

 

Though I know that there are dozens if not hundreds of threads leading to the Siege, I hope that it will be balanced in both, focus on characters and Legions. Those, who haven't had their chances during the Heresy, should shine now. But in a decent way and not 5 chapters about Sig slizing through traitors.

[b1soul]

I wouldn't mind two to three, but to each his own.

 

The third-person perspective would be another good method. Hope Fafnir Rann shines as well.

[rendingon1+]

I sincerely hope there won't be too much Sigismund-centric chapters, stories. Siege I think, it's a perfect opportunity to flesh out new or older characters without too much time in the spotlight, like Rann or other future chapter masters of the second founding. I'd definitely prefere to have some focus on Demetrius Katafalque, Fafnir Rann, Nasir Amit and other weirdos, than Sigismund who beats one bad guy after another being awesome, which (from non fanboi perspective) is really boring.

Sure, him becoming the first Emperor's Champion is a compulsory thing in a Siege, but I guess it will probably involve Euphratii Keeler arc, Lecticio etc. AFAIK people don't really like this.

[b1soul]

I would like Sigismund's role as Emperor's Champion to be a significant part of one of the Siege novels. I don't think it should be glossed over any more than Sang at the Eternity Gate or Khan at the Spaceport. By "Sig's role as Emperor's Champ", I don't mean mere accounts of multiple duels

[rendingon1+]

But how significant was it really? How did Sigismund becoming Emperor's Champion impacted the siege? We don't know yet of course, but I doubt that it would be very much important when we consider the scale (millions/billions combatants, warmachines, titans, monsters...). Sure, they can put Sigismund duelling a primarch or some other big guy, but pleasing a fanbase should have it's limits. 

[Kelborn]

Sig's participation in the Siege would rather be one of a front line leader or even more focusing on his "seeking a way of redemption" path. If it's as the one uber champion, challenging and killing the best Horus has to offer, so be it.

 

Dorn as the overall strategist, with Sangi and the Khan being his 2nd in command/ front line commanders and Sigi as his linebreaker.

[rendingon1+]

Front line leader - ok, he might even lead his templars + supporting elemnets but definitely NOT a solitary duelist fighting his personal war (because that's what it would be) in th name of (God) Emperor. Second option just makes him useless in the bigger picture. I mean, it was good when he was just a "normal" astartes, like in the white dwarf article of old, but now he is IF first captain and second in command after Rogal Dorn. I'm just afraid that Siege novels will focus on no doubt heroic feats and feelings  of individuals (aspect that neverheles should be there) instead of showing decisions of commanders and wider theatre. I don't wnt a chapter how Sanguinius suffers internally because everything is so bad, I want him shown giving orders, kicking collective ass and being a man(angel). Same with Sigismund, I don't want him to be only a sword champion but also a commander.

[bluntblade]

The best way to play Sigi would probably be from another perspective. Heck, even playing him like a slasher villain from the Traitors POV.

 

"The Templars come! Sigismund is here!"

[b1soul]

I believe Sig's role at the Siege was important from both battlefield and character development perspectives.

 

Sig was a huge morale booster for the embattled loyalists, and his ability to decapitate enemy leadership was a force multiplier in the defenders' favor. As

the first captain of the largest defending legion and the premier Imperial hero who immortalised his legend at the Siege, I don't think his role should be downplayed. Furthermore, I think the Siege should highlight why Sig became a living symbol of the Imperium and why his death a thousand years later had such symbolic significance.

 

Sig has been disowned by Dorn, and it feels like he's a character who is half way through his character arc. I think the Siege would be an excellent opportunity to explore him.

[DarkChaplain]

At this point, the only logical conclusion to reach re: Sigismund during the Siege, is that the community will be sorely disappointed and decry it as the biggest failure of the series as a whole, out of the sheer fandom-driven hype setting them up for that exact thing.

 

I'd rather wait and see what actually gets written about it than anticipating kill counts and identifying candidates for the hitlist way ahead of time. I'd rather see less of the headcount in general. What's being speculated here already seems to gratuitous and like, honestly, fanwank of the worst kind. I'd rather see Sigismund becoming an actually interesting character at last than anticipate who he's going to be doing in, as if that was his sole function in the entire series.

[Fedor]

I think a balance needs to be struck here not to make the universe and battle seem small or Sigismund seem a bit silly and overpowered, being the best fighter is one thing, effortlessly killing hundreds of other highly ranked Legionaries in duels one after the other is something else.

 

I get what Darkchaplain is saying too, there seems a bit of a childish interest in Sigismund as more of a loyalist superman than an actually interesting character. Not on here, but on bigger communities like reddit i often see it. It's similar to the Sanguinius thing that often crops up where a decent sized chunk of the fanbase seem to really want him to be an uber-primarch that would trounce all others on equal footing, and have more or less convinced themselves he is that.

 

NOt that i've got anything particularly against him being described in passing as seeming one of the more formidable fighters, but really his original role in the heresy had little to do with what i see some wanting from him. It was about tragedy of brother against brother and his unflinching loyalty even in the face of bleak prophetic visions and a chance to embrace chaos, contrasted to the corruption and vast ill-gotten power of Horus....part of the whole point was him not being meant to stand a chance anymore(other than creating a speculated chink in the armour, which may have gone to Russ now) as he just a normal baseline primarch yet going and being defiant anyway. Whereas now i get the feeling a section of the fanbase would prefer that gets retconned to some power-fantasy duel that would prove Sanguinius unbeatable in normal circumstances, but maybe gets taken down with a bit of sneaky sorcery Mace Windu vs Palpatine style.

[Sete]

I just want Siggy with a good showing.

I want to see how he is anointed Emperor Champion, a duel with Khârn is a must, and he needs to slay a couple of known names.

I already read his death, now I want to read his greatest moment.

I'm sure French will give him the attention necessary.

 

Sigismund will go through it with sheer grit and determination, as it is his way, and he won't be slaying hundreds of traitors with a brush of his sword. He ain't a ultramarine and does not need to be written like one :P

[Apothecary Vaddon]

IMO do it from the Traitor's perspective. Make Sigismund this unbeatable boogeyman that maybe even the notable traitors who survive the Heresy go well out of their way to avoid. It doesn't have to be the focal point of his Siege story arc though. 

 

Kind of like a 30k John Wick. "You will do nothing because you can do nothing ..."

[BrainFireBob]

Borrow from Andy Jackson at the battle of New Orleans. Have Sigismund draw his blade surrounded by Guardsmen about to break, with charging traitor marines, then proclaim "Face them or face me". Then have him kill some massive daemon that lands behind them, leave his scene with him charging the traitors with screaming, terrified guardsmen behind him. Then have one of the traitor Primarchs furious because guardsmen have seized Hab Block C and only calm down when his lieutenants tell him "Sigismund is with them."

Have said traitor Primarch then order a small Titan or Knight to reinforce the area. Later, have him ask for it again and be told

"Sigismund destroyed it"

"Where is Commander Xxxx?"

"Sigismund slew him."

"Where is Samus?"

"Sigism-"

"Nevermind."