Making Tactical Marines and Assault Marines more viable

[Captain Idaho]

The purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss overall game balance and competitive play etc but rather how to bring Tactical Marines and Assault Marines up to speed with the rest of the army.

 

Note it is painfully obvious GW has little intent to bring these units back to balance because they want to promote Primaris, but for those of us who have them, what ideas do you think GW can utilise to bring a little internal balance back to the Codex?

 

Keep in mind your peers in this topic - there are plenty of us who still have the models and won't buy into the most expensive Marines yet, so if your opinion is "don't bother trying to as Intercessors are better," etc then don't reply.

 

This is about what balanced rules changes can we do to make these 2 units viable.

 

So leading the discussion:

 

Tactical Marines

 

- Free Rhino. There I said it. A Tactical squad consisting of 10 models gets the army a free Rhino. It's not breaking the game since Tactical Marines are a weaker choice than even Intercessors now Beta Bolters has been implemented. (Scouts still being stars of the show here). If you want more balance, say only Tactical squads and characters can ride in these free Rhinos.

 

- Free weapons at 10 men. Same reasons as above.

 

- 10 man squads grant an extra Command Point.

 

- Tactical squads can use Scions of Guilliman for free (all Chapters get access to it for Tactical squads and it doesn't count as the single use of the Strategum if Tactical squads use it).

 

- Tactical Marines always count as having more models than enemies when determining who controls an objective. Not sure on this one but it came to my as an idea...

 

I like the 3rd option most. It's not actually too powerful but can help a list with its flexibility (which is what Tactical Marines are supposed to do).

 

Next best is the free Rhinos. When was the last time we saw a Mechanised Marines force in games? They used to be written into the fluff as a mainstay of Marines combat doctrine!

 

Funnily enough, these additions wouldn't eclipse other choices as folk might still want Scouts for their cheap battalions and deployment options, or Sniper rifles, whilst Intercessors still benefit greatly from Beta Bolters so they can camp on forward objectives as now.

 

***

 

Assault Marines

 

- Give them an extra attack for cybertron's sake! No points increase.

 

- Move them to Troops. I don't much like this idea but I'm sure someone will suggest it.

 

Honestly I'm a bit thematically stumped regarding Assault Marines what to do to make them useful.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Assault marines just lack the survivability to be a dedicated close combat unit. They would be more useful nowadays if they had more ranged weaponry options, then you could use them to take objectives and dish out some decent firepower while camping.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yeah, some of my previous ideas helped Tactical and Assault Marines. I'll copy and paste if needed.

 

Strategums COULD work but they would have to be fairly potent to merit selection of otherwise weaker units.

[MrZakalwe]

For assault marines I'd make them into a dedicated charge unit - say make them inflict 1 automatic str 4 hit each when they charge. Would make them a bit more effective against chaff/hordes. I think they'd be quite usable with that, also a decent counter to enemies with built in To Hit modifiers. Would further benefit blood angels as autohits are great when you've got a plus to wound which fits their chapter flavour.

[HighMarshalAmp]

What I feel people tend to forget is that 3 Tac Squads usually cost you about 300pts.

That's not too far from what a Loyal 32 currently goes for.

Still people prefer Scouts because those are more mobile for less points.

 

So how could a Tac Squad become a viable alternative to Scouts?

 

-Signum. A Dev Squad can take 4 big guns. Reducing movement penalties on one of them is a nice bonus, but boosting the one fancy weapon Choice in a small Tac Squad would please me.

 

-Jump Packs. Alternatively, give Assault Squads access to ranged weapons and/ or make them Troops, as has been suggested.

 

-Tie certain benefits to having at least X Tac Squads. Drukhari Style.

 

-Canticles. To reflect the Jack of all Trades-nature of Tac Squads, give them an array of boosts each Squad can choose from for each battle round.

 

-Make them cheaper. At the same cost as Scouts, the better Save might make them better backfield campers while Scouts take the middle.

[domsto]

Please no free Stuff! Don't open Pandora's Box once again.

Everybody should pay for their toys.

 

My fix would be:

Tacticals

Down to 11ppm, ignore move and fire Heavy Weapons.

Assault

Down to 11ppm as well(13 with jump pack), grant them +1 Attack on the Charge or let them inflict D3 MW after a successful charge. 

[Lephisto]

For assault marines, why not just give them the Hammer of Wrath rule. While charging, just give them an automatic hit before the fight phase begins.

[Subtleknife]

Wouldn't mind if assault marines also got the same rule as inceptors. Every time they charge you role a dice for each model in the unit that is within 1 inch of the enemy. On a 6 plus a mortal wound is inflicted. Also, up their attack by 1 and move them to troops.

[Captain Idaho]

I like free hits. Since they only have 1 attack base I'd simplify it and say their attacks automatically hit on the charge.

 

I don't think free things are a problem. It's balance and implementation that stings.

 

However, I'd still prefer 10 man units granting a CP. Makes them worth taking.

[Ishagu]

Tactical Marine:

-11 points per model, Bolter Discipline, No penalty when moving and firing heavy weapons

 

Assault Marine:

-11 points per model, 2 attacks base (3 with chainsword), gains Str+1 on the charge

 

 

I really don't think we should be handing out anything for free. I did suggest free upgrades for Salamanders as part of their Chapter Tactic a while back but that was very unpopular with users across the forum. There's shades of 7th when we hand out freebies.

 

One thing that needs a massive re-working is the way Command Points are generated. I agree 100% that Guard gain them too easily and PA armies and Custodes especially really suffer. The way CP are generated should be dependant on the size of your primary detachment. So if you take 2k of pure Astartes you would have more CP than a soup army comprised of Knights, Guard and Assassins for example. The detachment type would still grant a bonus on top of the CP generated by the size. a 2k Battalion should still grant more than a 2k Vanguard, for example.

[Ishagu]

I would also include Devastators in this.

 

11 points per model, BS 2+

[The Unseen]

I like free hits. Since they only have 1 attack base I'd simplify it and say their attacks automatically hit on the charge.

 

I don't think free things are a problem. It's balance and implementation that stings.

 

However, I'd still prefer 10 man units granting a CP. Makes them worth taking.

10 man squads granting a CP would not be good Idaho.

You could take 1 10 man squad, or 2 5 men squads and be filling out a roster more (for more cp) and grabbing an additional special weapon and attack from the extra sarge.

In short, even if it was a rule, it wouldn't get used, just because you would still get more cp from taking msu squads.

[Brother Casman]

Well, my instinct tends towards streamlining profiles a bit: so I'd start by giving Tactical, Assault, and Devastator marines +1 wound and +1 attack. I'd also adjust the fluff slightly: an Intercessor squad is just a Tactical squad equipped with Bolt Rifles; a Hellblaster squad is just a Devastator squad equipped with Plasma thingies (and so on). Points can all stay the same; the Heretic Astartes get similar adjustments. I'd also keep Bolter Discipline.

[rendingon1+]

Yeah, as long as stndard marines are stuck with 1 W/A and no AP bolters none can be done. So as Brother Casman says: 2W,2A astartes baseline, I'd also like astartes chainsword having -1AP. Because they are astartes chainswords.

[MrZakalwe]

1w t4, and 3+ save is a decent defensive profile making them highly resistant to normal infantry weapons (especially in cover) and only particularly vulnerable to heavier weapons. Tacs don't need to be primaris to be useful.

 

A FRFSRF buffed guard squad within rapid fire range kills ever so slightly more than 1 marine in cover - I hear tales of how lasguns just scythe marines down like wheat but it never quite seems to happen for my lasguns. Tacs are defensively efficient but offensively deficient - the beta bolter drill rule compensates for this slightly but it still doesn't give them a damage output to suit their points/defensive profile. I'm not sure what changes I'd make to tacs to get that offensive efficiency back.

[Captain Idaho]

Well, my instinct tends towards streamlining profiles a bit: so I'd start by giving Tactical, Assault, and Devastator marines +1 wound and +1 attack. I'd also adjust the fluff slightly: an Intercessor squad is just a Tactical squad equipped with Bolt Rifles; a Hellblaster squad is just a Devastator squad equipped with Plasma thingies (and so on). Points can all stay the same; the Heretic Astartes get similar adjustments. I'd also keep Bolter Discipline.

 

 

Well that's a different kettle of fish - GW should have just reimagined Marines with these new models but hey ho. That's going off topic.

 

 

I like free hits. Since they only have 1 attack base I'd simplify it and say their attacks automatically hit on the charge.

I don't think free things are a problem. It's balance and implementation that stings.

However, I'd still prefer 10 man units granting a CP. Makes them worth taking.

10 man squads granting a CP would not be good Idaho.

You could take 1 10 man squad, or 2 5 men squads and be filling out a roster more (for more cp) and grabbing an additional special weapon and attack from the extra sarge.

In short, even if it was a rule, it wouldn't get used, just because you would still get more cp from taking msu squads.

Perhaps, though in isolation. With other changes, or new Strategums that make Tactical Marines more worthwhile, it would be a contributing boost.

 

I never said only 1 change can be implemented ;)

 

***

 

Another point that actually helps Tactical Marines... cheaper Rhinos. If people have a knee jerk reaction to free things, even though Primaris get free grenade launchers and other races get cheaper and better stuff, a discounted Rhino would help.

 

35pts for a Rhino would be golden. You could then have Tactical Marines where they need to be, supporting your attacking forces with numbers and special weapons whilst Intercessors slowly march up the field and hold objectives.

 

No one losses out there either.

[MrZakalwe]

To stop the abuse cases you'd need to tie the rhino cost reduction to a full strength tac squad or you'd still never see the tacs but now there would be a huge herd of rhinos charging every enemy shooting unit.

[thewarriorhunter]

I agree that free stuff should not be handed out because it's a slippery slope. If it was limited to one free transport then maybe... but as Ishagu stated I think a lot of folks would get upset and say we're going back to 7th formations. Cheaper transports would be nice.

 

I agree with several points made. Assault are not scary enough, giving them HoW on the charge or the inceptor rule for MW would be nice. I would love to see chainswords go to -1AP because... it's a freaking chainsword.

 

It might be an interesting balance point to allow +1 or 2 CP for each 10 man tac squad used. It's a one time bonus and helps give us a little more CP.

 

Not sure on the canticles for each squad... that gets into a lot of book keeping. I think changes that are 'one and done' would be better so that book keeping is minimized.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know. Maybe you're right. Rhinos aren't that good right now but being cautious with changes is probably best.

[domsto]

Excepte the bs 2+ on devastarors, i agree with everything Ishagu said.

 

11ppm for T4 3+ W1 with ws/bs 3+ seems about right.

[bolvar]

Regarding tacticals:

 

+1 wound (really not only tacticals, but all oldmarines, at least 2 wounds). With bolter discipline rule, they are fine regarding firepower potential for a classic tactical marine. I've explained myself in the other thread about this.

 

Regarding assault squads:

 

I'll ask the same question I made when 8th index and codex were launched. Why on earth would you want an assault squad, when you can bring a vanguard veteran squad? After the CA 2018, they dropped one point, to 15 per model with jump packs, or they stay at 13 points just like the tacticals. But vanguard veterans dropped to 14 points, and 16 with jump packs (they got even more cheaper).

 

So, for just 2 points per model, you get: +1 A, +1 LD, A LOT of gear options, special pistols and weapons are cheap and they bring a lot of power, storm shields... remember, just for 2 points per model. WHY would you get an assault marine with only 1 base attack and poor gear options, when you have all the previous for just 2 points per model.

 

While the difference between a normal assault marine and a veteran remains as it is, there is literally no reason to not get a vanguard veteran squad instead of an assault squad.

 

At least for black templars and our crusader squads . For the rest, guess it's nice to have the option to get tactical marines with chainswords at the same cost.

[Subtleknife]

1w t4, and 3+ save is a decent defensive profile making them highly resistant to normal infantry weapons

I would disagree. A t4 3+ save no longer is a great defensive statline on elite forces. Now if you give them a 2+ save it really does alter their survivability imo

[UnkyHamHam]

(For one of the first times ever, I very much agree with Ishagu.  I do think the CP system is fundamentally flawed.  CP should be generated from your HQs and not your Troops.  But that is a whole other thread needing to happen...)

 

An idea that popped into my head after you (Idaho) mentioned in your first post about allowing Scions of Guilliman on any and all flavor Tacs, and for free... was why not allow ALL of the individual Chapter strategems to be used cross all C:SM Chapters (barring the Templar's Abhor the Witch)?  It would honestly add to the flexibility and shear warfare experience that each marine force is said to have.  There are a couple of ways to implement it.

 

1.  Allow only Tacticals to do this, and obviously change keywords involved from bikes, vehicles, ect. to Tactical Squads.

 

2.  Tiered approach. I know its radical, but allow all Chapters to use all strats for 2cp on any unit, since its not their standard operating procedure to employ those tactics, but its not outside of their training and experience to employ them.  Then each Chapter could employ their unique strat for the standard 1cp.  Lastly, on the bottom end, Tactical squads can use them for free, but only being allowed to choose 1 to implement each phase.  This kind of represents the Tactical's ability to maintain flexibility and build on their experience in all divisions of the Chapter.

 

For Assault Marines...  I am still wondering why we aren't allowed to have special weapons like Blood Angels.  Seriously, allow them the use of specials at least.  

 

Other than these thoughts, I am wholly supportive of most arguments here other than flat point discounts on marines that move them closer to a hoard.  I like anything that gives a bolter or chainsword boost, and anything that tries to implement a Transhuman Physiology type durability boost.

 

I do think that a full squad should allow a 50% discount on a Rhino or Drop Pod, with the stipulation that you MUST start THAT squad in the transport.

[Tamiel]

The most likely thing I can see happening is a formation coming up, similar to Indomitus Crusaders, that applies to Tactical Marines or Assault Marines (or both). The reason that chapter approved 2018 did not include points drops for tactical marines could be related to this. I was on the side of "GW wants to phase out old marines" too, until I saw the Victrix Guard formation and how good it was. It's a formation that uses almost entirely non-primaris units, so it looks like GW intends for old marines to stick around. This, in combination with the lack of points drops for tac marines, leads me to believe that a formation for tactical marines could be coming up somewhere over the horizon.

As a sidenote, I've noticed that GW is sort of like Blizzard Entertainment when it comes to making balance changes, at least in the sense that they are going in the right direction but going too slowly. The recent bolter changes are a step in the right direction, but there's no reason for it not to have come six months ago. People have been calling out the weakness of bolters since the first days of 8th. I think GW will address the weakness of tac marines too, but it might be a long wait before that. Might take a few years, even, for a tac marine formation to come out in some campaign book or another.

[Schlitzaf]

I’ll say what I say in all tactical fix threads;

Do all 4 core tactical equivalents get this change?

(Grey Hunters/Crusaders/Chaos Marines/Tacticals)