Making Tactical Marines and Assault Marines more viable

[thewarriorhunter]

I'm not familiar with the SW codex so I can't speak to them.

 

I would think something along the lines of what was already mentioned could work, pay x CP and there's no overwatch to charging units if they were shot at from a tactical squad.

 

or

 

If a tactical squad is within 6 inches of an enemy unit in cover a devastator squad can shoot at them and the target unit gets no cover save

 

or

 

If a tactical squad is within 6 inches of an enemy a devastator squad get's plus one to hit rolls

 

or

 

if a devastator squad wounded a squad in the shooting phase an assault squad can charge that unit with no overwatch and a bonus attacks on the charge (to represent the squad recovering from heavy support fire)

 

or

 

if an assault squad moves in the movement phase and it crosses over an enemy unit they can drop D3 grenades onto the enemy unit while overhead

 

I'm just spit balling here and I'm sure those need more work, but for 1 or 2 CP those might be nice tools to add to our kit. I still think CP needs to be reworked because marines are on the short end of the stick but I would love to see something like this added in.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I like the idea of fixing the issue with Strats. Why not fix transports the same way?

 

The Emperor's Fury: 2CP

 

Use this stratagem on an Astartes Jump Pack Infantry Unit or an Astartes Infantry Unit embarked on a Drop Pod during your deployment phase, when the unit is set aside for a delayed deployment. This unit may arrive on the battlefield during the controller player's first turn, instead of waiting until the second turn and beyond. Infantry units which deploy in this manner may re-roll their Hit Rolls in the first player turn (this includes both the Shooting and Assault Phase). Infantry units with the Tactical and Assault keywords may activate this stratagem for 0 CP.

[Trevak Dal]

Assault marines are troops with all benefits of that.

 

Asm get access to all specials.

 

And my standard "all marine units need +1 wound and attack with no points cost increase except scouts" line.

[Trevak Dal]

The Vanguard issue can be mitigated by making them a Elite choice since they are veterans (if asm as troops isn't an option, and this is all head drivel anyways)

 

Command points should only come from filled out formations.

 

Completely. Filled out. Formations. Max unit size. So no more "lol i got 32 guardsmen, give me command points" you have to Max the squads.

[Trevak Dal]

Hell yeah! There needs to be special rules (stratagems, maybe?) that reward players who use tactical, assault, and devastator squads in tandem. This is exactly what I want to see. Ever since reading the Black Reach short story, I've always loved the idea of tactical, assault, and devastator squads working together to assist each other. I don't know how often this happens in other books, but I would imagine it is pretty often. This is a golden idea that needs to be implemented. I don't know how GW would do it, but some sort of stratagem that helps these three squads working together (possibly as part of a new formation) would breathe so much life into the oldmarines units that are currently gathering dust for many players.

 

GW needs to be notified of this idea ASAP

...Hmm.

 

Off the top of my head, have two rhinos. In each rhino is a 5 man tac squad, a 5 man Dev squad with some asm following behind and some dreds for heavy fire support.

 

Devs have heavybolters or gravcannons, tacs have Combi/special if not just bolters.

 

That said, I wouldn't rely on Combi weapons always being infinite use. I think that's a quirk that will be undone in future editions. Fairly adjusted, I'd say they should be every other round of shooting but presumably they went with infinite use for a reason.

 

Another thought is to redesign the concept of tactical, devestators and assault marines.

 

Tacticals can only take bolters (but would for whatever reason gain benefits for that like counting as not moving even after moving) or Flamers, devestators can take special or heavy weapons.

[Aurica]

For Tactical Marines, I do like 1 & 3 the most.   Giving free CP for 10 man squad seems kind of odd for me.   I would prefer free CP to be granted if we take elements of what used to constitute as Command Squad in previous editions.

 

As for Assault Marines, maybe they could be given Hammer of Wrath from previous edition? 

 

I would like to see the 7th Edition Tactical/Assault/Devastator Doctrines re-worked to suit 8th Ed and return as strategems.

 

Tactical Doctrine - All Rapid Fire Weapons gain -1 AP,   Troops units extend their range by 6"

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more...

 

Assault Doctrine - All Pistols & Assault Weapons, gain +1 to wound rolls.  Fast Attack units increase their attack by 1

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more

 

Devastator Doctrine - All Heavy Weapons can fire again but hit on a -1 BS.   Heavy Support Units deal additional 1 wound with their range weapons

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more

[Ishagu]

None of those strats should cost 3CP.

 

1 is more in line, except for the Dev one which could be 2 or 3

[Kallas]

For Tactical Marines, I do like 1 & 3 the most.   Giving free CP for 10 man squad seems kind of odd for me.   I would prefer free CP to be granted if we take elements of what used to constitute as Command Squad in previous editions.

 

Why not both? Tactical Squads are supposed to be the backbone of a Chapter's fighting force, it makes sense for them to be a strong unit to bring.

 

And sure, if you bring a Captain, Lieutenant, Librarian, Ancient, Champion and a Company Veteran Squad, why not also give them a CP bonus? That's almost a Company's full command structure with a ton of experience!

 

None of those strats should cost 3CP.

 

1 is more in line, except for the Dev one which could be 2 or 3

 

Agreed!

 

As for Assault Marines, maybe they could be given Hammer of Wrath from previous edition? 

 

I would like to see the 7th Edition Tactical/Assault/Devastator Doctrines re-worked to suit 8th Ed and return as strategems.

 

Tactical Doctrine - All Rapid Fire Weapons gain -1 AP,   Troops units extend their range by 6"

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more...

 

Assault Doctrine - All Pistols & Assault Weapons, gain +1 to wound rolls.  Fast Attack units increase their attack by 1

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more

 

Devastator Doctrine - All Heavy Weapons can fire again but hit on a -1 BS.   Heavy Support Units deal additional 1 wound with their range weapons

Last 1 Turn.  Cost 3 CP or more

 

Doctrines: As above, I strongly agree with Ishagu, none of these should be 3CP, as that is far, far too expensive for these buffs.

 

Tactical Doctrine: It's nice, definitely not worth 3CP. 2CP with a very hard sell, but really should be 1CP (and maybe 0CP for Tacticals, and maybe also Intercessors)

 

Assault Doctrine: Giving Assault Weapons a buff option is good, same for Pistols (although Bolt Pistols are generally pretty pointless) as it'd make Plasma Pistols damn good. Definitely not worth 3CP, 1CP at most. Hell, this would be best used on Scout Bikers, not Assault Marines (they've got their Shotguns, which are better than Bolt Pistols, plus they get to shoot their Twin Bolters at the same time and have the same amount of attacks as Assault Marines). ASM should have this cost 0CP for them.

 

Devastator Doctrine: It's good, but still better on something like a Land Raider Phobos (which would make this pretty great with two Twin LC and a Twin HB) or Predator (where it would be basically a personal Killshot) rather than Devastators. 2CP at a push, maybe only 1CP for Devastators. 

[No Foes Remain]

Maybe they could have a rule similar the HH Ultramarines' interlocking tactics just tweeked slightly:

 

 

• Whenever a unit with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) special rule makes a shooting attack against a target which has already been successfully hit in the same shooting phase by another Ultramarine unit, they may re-roll rolls of 1 to wound or penetrate the target's armour. This does not affect Snap Snots or Blast weapons.
• Whenever a unit with the Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) special rule charges a unit with is already engaged in an assault by another Ultramarines unitand fails to reach the target owing to a failed Charge Range roll, this must be re-rolled.

[UnkyHamHam]

Guys I'm pretty sure he meant those doctrines will effect the ENTIRE army when played. Still think they should be so cheap?

[Kallas]

Guys I'm pretty sure he meant those doctrines will effect the ENTIRE army when played. Still think they should be so cheap?

 

Hm. In that case, sure. I highly doubt GW would make stratagems like that affect an entire force, however. The only one (that I can think of off the top of my head) that I know of that would be roughly equivalent is Prepared Positions, and that grants Cover, which is only situationally useful for the first turn (and in my experience hasn't been all that useful when I've seen it played!).

 

Still, if they were to be implemented as 3CP, army-wide stratagems (presumably mutually exclusively) then they'd be potentially pretty potent. Although realistically we'd see forces being built to utilise one of them to great effect; probably three units of Devastators, Predators and some Tacticals for Battalions and just double firing Lascannons/PACs/Heavy Bolters every turn, rather than switching to others as needed. Specialists > Generalists is the rule of thumb in 40k, after all.

[Panzer]

I don't think we'll ever see Stratagems that affect the whole army at once. Stratagems are supposed to offer tactical options not something you just use whenever and then are out of CP (though I admit not every Stratagem fits that bill).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The key is making the strats require two units of different types to work. Because we're talking units considered suboptimal, you also have to make the strats good enough to entice people into taking said units. I came up with these off the cuff:

 

 

SUPPRESSIVE FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly (Chapter> Assault Squad declares a charge against an enemy non-VEHICLE unit. If that unit suffered any unsaved wounds from a friendly <Chapter> Tactical or Devastator Squad in the preceding Shooting Phase, then all models in that Assault Squad gain an extra attack against models in that enemy unit, and that unit cannot fire Overwatch against the charging Assault Squad.

 

 

COVERING FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly <Chapter> Devastator Squad declares a shooting attack. If one of the targets of that attack is an enemy unit that began the turn with at least one model within 1" of a friendly <Chapter> Tactical or Assault Squad, then that Devastator Squad gains +1 to hit for all shooting attacks that target that enemy unit this phase.

 

SUPPORTING FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly <Chapter> Tactical Squad is chosen to attack in the Shooting or Fight Phase. If one of the targets of that attack suffered any unsaved wounds from a shooting attack by a friendly <Chapter> Devastator or Assault Squad in the same Shooting Phase, or if one of the targets has at least one model within 1" of a friendly <Chapter> Devastator or Assault Squad in the Fight Phase, then that Tactical Squad gains an additional point of Armor Penetration for attacks targeting that enemy unit.

 

 

I tried to vary the bonuses a bit and sometimes the wordy seems clunky but I think they get the point across.

[bolvar]

I'd rather see not so many stratagems for almost everything, nor detachments. Don't forget the mess that was 7th edition with all those formations, special rules for those formations and such.

 

 

8th edition seems like they want to keep the game as "clean" as possible regarding special rules/detachtments and the like. From rules barely used, and easy to forget, like pinning tests (mostly because of almost everything had fearless or another rule that let you ignore such things), special formations/detachments that alter entirely core rules, use-once-per-battle rules and the like.

 

 

Stratagems shouldn't be neccesary for a unit in order to make it acceptable/useful, just something that you can activate to boost a unit/allow you to do something.

[Panzer]

The key is making the strats require two units of different types to work. Because we're talking units considered suboptimal, you also have to make the strats good enough to entice people into taking said units. I came up with these off the cuff:

 

 

SUPPRESSIVE FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly (Chapter> Assault Squad declares a charge against an enemy non-VEHICLE unit. If that unit suffered any unsaved wounds from a friendly <Chapter> Tactical or Devastator Squad in the preceding Shooting Phase, then all models in that Assault Squad gain an extra attack against models in that enemy unit, and that unit cannot fire Overwatch against the charging Assault Squad.

 

 

COVERING FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly <Chapter> Devastator Squad declares a shooting attack. If one of the targets of that attack is an enemy unit that began the turn with at least one model within 1" of a friendly <Chapter> Tactical or Assault Squad, then that Devastator Squad gains +1 to hit for all shooting attacks that target that enemy unit this phase.

 

SUPPORTING FIRE (1CP)

Play this stratagem when a friendly <Chapter> Tactical Squad is chosen to attack in the Shooting or Fight Phase. If one of the targets of that attack suffered any unsaved wounds from a shooting attack by a friendly <Chapter> Devastator or Assault Squad in the same Shooting Phase, or if one of the targets has at least one model within 1" of a friendly <Chapter> Devastator or Assault Squad in the Fight Phase, then that Tactical Squad gains an additional point of Armor Penetration for attacks targeting that enemy unit.

 

 

I tried to vary the bonuses a bit and sometimes the wordy seems clunky but I think they get the point across.

 

I like the Suppressive fire one. Mostly due the overwatch denying aspect as the additional attack is something you'd have with Veterans anyway. The combination of both is what makes it worth considering.

 

Covering fire sounds more like something the unit that fell back that turn should benefit from as the Devastators are covering their retreat. Maybe give the Tacticals/Assaults the ability to still shoot with full BS (so UM still benefit from it as well) that turn.

 

Supporting fire sounds fine to me as well.

[Panzer]

I'd rather see not so many stratagems for almost everything, nor detachments. Don't forget the mess that was 7th edition with all those formations, special rules for those formations and such.

 

 

8th edition seems like they want to keep the game as "clean" as possible regarding special rules/detachtments and the like. From rules barely used, and easy to forget, like pinning tests (mostly because of almost everything had fearless or another rule that let you ignore such things), special formations/detachments that alter entirely core rules, use-once-per-battle rules and the like.

 

 

Stratagems shouldn't be neccesary for a unit in order to make it acceptable/useful, just something that you can activate to boost a unit/allow you to do something.

 

The problem with formations was that they were pretty much free unlike Stratagems which cost CP and that there were some really badly designed ones (the ones giving free stuff and the ones buffing already really strong units like the Riptide Wing for example).

8th edition wants to keep the core rules clean but same as AoS it wants to add lots of flavour and special rules with Codexes via Stratagems and special rules (40k still has a long way to go on the flavour part compared to AoS though imo).

 

However I agree on the last part. Stratagems should always be a bonus, not part of the base ability of a unit as you can always only use a Stratagem once per phase and have a limited CP pool.

[NiceGuyAdi]

Assault marines base should cost less than tacticals or devastators, the lack of obsec or signum just means they have no USP.

 

They should be able to take melta guns in the same way as flamers.

 

And eviscerators should be cheap as chips. Since only AM can take them this can boost that unit specifically without affecting internal balance.

 

Together this does nothing to make AM an anti-chaff unit, but it would give them a nasty in-close anti-heavy role.

[Ishagu]

The more I look at recent books the more I realise that stats and cost aren't the solution.

 

After all, Ork boys are one of the best units in the game. They became more expensive with the new codex. It's the amazing strats and clan rules that make them good.

 

BT should have +1 attack, +1 to charge and advance, can charge after advancing, for example. THAT is a good chapter tactic.

[bolvar]

Yes Ishagu, that would be a good way to fix things too.

 

Buffing stats would be nice (+1w to oldmarines at least), just for the fluff aspect, but something as essential as the chapter tactics could get a rework too.

[Dracos]

The more I look at recent books the more I realise that stats and cost aren't the solution.

I have to agree, in that we are whistling up Everest looking to change stats on Tacticals. It would require changes across almost the complete range of factions .... and point cost, up or down, can only go so far to fixing a particular model/units effectiveness. New, improved Chapter Tactics and Stratagems are the key resource in 8th edition.

 

It’s not that I don’t think they couldn’t +1 W +1 A Tacticals. I just know they won’t, so I’d rather look at more likely possibilities to inspire GW with if anyone happens to peruse the best Astartes website ever :)

[Kallas]

Chapter Tactics, Stratagems and some fundamental rules (eg, Deep Strike: why write it out every time if they're all identical?! Giving a few of them different ones would be good, specifically the Drop Pod!) would go a long way to making Marines feel better as a faction.

[thewarriorhunter]

I think a cool drop pod rule would be that any disembarking marines get a bonus to attacking units within 12 inches. That would be a great rules representation for the 'shock and awe' aspect that drop pods are supposed to affect when they arrive on the battle field. It's a simple one turn bonus that I don't think would be game breaking.

[Kallas]

I think a cool drop pod rule would be that any disembarking marines get a bonus to attacking units within 12 inches. That would be a great rules representation for the 'shock and awe' aspect that drop pods are supposed to affect when they arrive on the battle field. It's a simple one turn bonus that I don't think would be game breaking.

+1 to Hit and a -1/-2/-X to Morale, plus a cost reduction to, say, 60pts would make Drop Pods alright.

 

Add in Chapter Tactic and Stratagem buffs and Marines might not be top tier but they'd be decent (depending on the level of buffs).

[BrainFireBob]

Try this:

 

Suppressing fire: If a devastator unit shoots an infantry unit, assault marines and tactical marines ignore overwatch hits on a 3+.

 

Coordinated assault: if a tactical squad and assault squad charge the same target, tactical marines get +1 attack

[Dracos]

No, no ... no, no ... these are good "tactical" ideas, so obviously they must belong in the Guard and Tau armies