The bushels Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I am curious if using understrength units to create a lone wolf pre-game has come up for anyone. Premise is this: spend 1cp to take an aux unit that has 1 model. Be it a wolf guard with jump pack, wolf guard tda or long fangs terminator pack leader. Kit out as you prefer then spend 1 cp at the end of the first movement phase to make it a lone wolf. Jump pack guard pack leader has 3a 3w with th and ss is 37 pts, tda the same loadout is 41pts. Long fang with ss sb and cyclone is 68pts. For 2 cp you get a cheap character than has all the rerolls. Competitive? Probably not unless you have lots of cp to burn. But has anyone tried this? Is there anything stopping me from doing so in matched play? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratherdashing Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I've done the Cyclone leader in Long Fangs a couple times but he always died in the same phase as his squad. The rerolls, extra wounds and Character could be pretty great--with Long Fangs hanging out in the back there's a good chance he will suddenly become untargetable. But so far it's just a theory--no one has activated that "trap card" yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas Oh Dear Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 It's a lil underhanded, I'd say it's gaming the system and would be frowned upon by most opponents I'd imagine. RAW it would be legal but I'd imagine most tourneys have rules against understrength units. Bear in mind that you have to pay the full cost of a minimum sized squad for understrength units so the cyclone for example would actually be 138pts even thought you'd only be taking the leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoyo ninja Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Squads have a minimum model count, and none of our units have a minimum squad size of 1. So there is no way of bringing just a pack leader in matched play unfortunately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratherdashing Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 So I completely missed the "understrength units" part and thought you were just talking about using the wolf guard to get a Lone Wolf the normal way. Your question and the fact that my local tournament group has rules prohibiting understrength units makes me think I completely misunderstand the rules for understrength units. Because I can't see why anyone would take them for any reason. My understanding was that you have to pay for all the missing models in an understrength unit. So if, hypothetically, a unit has 5-10 guys who cost 10 points apiece, fielding just one guy will still run you 50 points. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, even for Lone Wolf shenanigans. You are paying for units you don't get to field. You may as well be playing with fewer max points than your opponent. But my local group will often specifically state in tournament rules that you can only field one understrength unit in your army. So I have to think it's abusable somehow but I can't fathom how. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Its abusable because for the cost of like 15 marines and 3 hqs you can have 12 cp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratherdashing Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 ...but for that cost couldn't you also have 15 Marines and 3 HQs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Sure but not the command points generated by the incredibly cheap brigagde you filled Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratherdashing Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I'm missing something. A brigade would have to *pay* for the 30 Marines it takes to make six five-man squads, even if each squad only had one guy. Same with the fast attack slots, etc. That's why I'm not seeing the abuse potential. Anything you could get with understrength squads, you could get for the same price with minimum strength squads, but with that setup you actually get the models in your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 In power levels I think you must pay the plof the squad min or not but I think in points you pay the models individually so it depends on the system Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The bushels Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 According the the main rulebook faq in matched play you only pay points for the models you field, and can only be taken as an aux detachment so it costs you 1cp to take it. As far as gaming the system, it's not my intent to try and pull one over on my opponent, as spending 2cp to get one character is not anyway Competitive. The idea is to be able to field a lone wolf with my great company like we used to be able to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Your approach is gaming the system....the stratagem lone wolf gets reroll to hit and wound everything...that is a powerful buff Use the index lone wolf if that is your intent. The unit is still legal per GW index flow chart Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The bushels Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 By your reasoning either approach is gaming the system. Using index options that aren't included in the codex is cherry picking to game the system. Spending 2 cp to field an understrength unit to get a semi powerful character is gaming the system. Imperial soup lists are gaming the system. Comparatively speaking, this idea isn't egregious and totally valid with a reasonable cost associated with it. So aside from personal bias, is anyone aware of anything that prohibits it in any faqs or updates? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 you are being obtuse right now the index is legal and everyone accepts as fine. you aren't breaking any rules or being underhanded with an index unit to gain an advantage Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The bushels Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 And understrength units are allowed in the main rulebook, have set criteria-cannot be a model from a unit already in the army, limited to one unit, and you have to pay a cp for it. None of this is underhanded. Taking units from 3 different sources to pick the best units and maximize cp is far more underhanded, yet is abused widely. I'm not concerned with the perceived morality of using the strategems, just looking to see if there is anything that prohibits it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 The rule is for people short on models. It literally says "sometimes you may find that you do not uave enough models" You are abusing a loophole to auto generate a lone wolf via stratagem and avoiding a morale roll and the potential of all models dying to deny the lone wolf attempt in the first place If you tried that crap and I was ruling i would say you dont get to activate the Lone wolf stratagem because your 1 man unit was never"reduced" as required by the stratagem. I'm bowing out before a mod has to deal with my further replies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratherdashing Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Well I learned something new. I didn't know about the FAQ; I was just going off of BRB pg 242. Anyway if you have to spend a CP to field a model like that I can't see it being worth it except in gimmicky cases like this. This particular gimmick seems pretty cut-and-dry illegal though. Lone Wolf requires a unit to have been "reduced" to one model. A one model unit cannot be reduced to one model. At no point in the game was it greater than one model,so it's minimum unit size is irrelevant and it's not eligible for Lone Wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The bushels Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Well I learned something new. I didn't know about the FAQ; I was just going off of BRB pg 242. Anyway if you have to spend a CP to field a model like that I can't see it being worth it except in gimmicky cases like this. This particular gimmick seems pretty cut-and-dry illegal though. Lone Wolf requires a unit to have been "reduced" to one model. A one model unit cannot be reduced to one model. At no point in the game was it greater than one model,so it's minimum unit size is irrelevant and it's not eligible for Lone Wolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5245706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 No that can't be done. We're wolves not dodgy dark angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353523-lone-wolf/#findComment-5246365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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