GreyCrow Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Gotcha ! No, we won’t talk about whether or not Marines need improvements. No, we won’t wishlist about what changes we’d like to see in this thread either. I kindly ask the moderation team to please use the full force of the Inquisition to ensure this stays on topic please :) What we’ll discuss instead here is : with the units we have, how do we improvement OUR competitiveness as players? How do we up our list building skills ? How do we up our maneuvering skills ? It’s easy to complain about the lack of performance of Marines. It’s harder to suck it up and train hard and GET RIPPED! But it’s more glory in the eyes of the Emperor! Let’s share and drive the threats to our glorious Imperium far away from our borders ! On my side I’ve seen 2 things : - Look ta units for what they are, rather than what we want them to be. Examples : Assault Marines I played a lot and found they are extremely efficient little buggers to harass and delay isolated targets. They won’t do anything else. - The 500 points paradox : Now when army building, whenever I want to have a unit out, I don’t use it unless I have 500 points worth of it. I found that it helped tremendously to reach expected statistical outcomes. It was much easier to manage when playing these units groupes together. Example : 30 Assault Marines is 450 points barebones with Jump Packs. 10 Assault Marines in a flank is crap. 30 Assault Marines in a flank is a serious annoyance that you have to deal with. That’s all for me for now ! What’s your trick ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Bring 999 points of imperial guard in my 2k space marine list. In all seriousness I've found lots of "x" seem to do well. In your case assault marines, I bring a lot of vanguard. I think of you are going to bring 5, be prepared to being 30. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Objectives focus is paramount. If we can win games losing most of our army whilst our opponent has a full army then perhaps the opponents need to change their lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Definitely Idaho, objectives are crucial. They’re not as exciting as rushing in and shooting the aliens and heretics, but they are the key to victory! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Dreadnoughts! They get overlooked for their goofy looks, but they're tough, they pack firepower and they draw fire. I've found that 2 of them usually suffice to do what they're meant to do, but you should be able to fit 3 into 500pts. Love that rule btw. I play by 'take at least 2 of everything', but especially with my more successful units, cranking them up to 500pts seems like a good idea when expanding my forces :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I don't think they get overlooked because of their goofy looks. In fact I know few units that are so much liked as Dreadnoughts across the whole community. It's just that Dreadnoughts haven't been good for the longest time aside of FW ones thanks to their invulnerable save and frankly it's still pretty much the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Dreadnoughts like Tactical Terminators are interesting but in a bit of a weird spot. The only way I can see running the base Dreadnoughts efficiently is alongside fully geared Tacticals, where everybody is blobbing together. Speaking of blob, here’s another trick I found useful : - Don’t bother gearing your Tactical Marines unless you plan to go for a Troops spam list. Example of a Troops spam list : 2 Captains, 2 Lieutenants 100 Tacticals with 10 Plasma Cannons, 10 Plasma guns, 10 Plasma Pistol/Power Fist sergeants. All deployed within 1” of one another to benefit from the rerolls, and moving the whole blob at once. Can replace some tactical Squads with Dreadnoughts or Terminators depending on Flavour and Preference. The whole point is to move this as a blob and use them as a single large unit. Try it, it’s fun and it works ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5245959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Dreadnoughts like Tactical Terminators are interesting but in a bit of a weird spot. The only way I can see running the base Dreadnoughts efficiently is alongside fully geared Tacticals, where everybody is blobbing together. Speaking of blob, here’s another trick I found useful : - Don’t bother gearing your Tactical Marines unless you plan to go for a Troops spam list. Example of a Troops spam list : 2 Captains, 2 Lieutenants 100 Tacticals with 10 Plasma Cannons, 10 Plasma guns, 10 Plasma Pistol/Power Fist sergeants. All deployed within 1” of one another to benefit from the rerolls, and moving the whole blob at once. Can replace some tactical Squads with Dreadnoughts or Terminators depending on Flavour and Preference. The whole point is to move this as a blob and use them as a single large unit. Try it, it’s fun and it works ! I don't think this is all that good an idea. If an army can deal with 120+ Boyz, It shouldn't have a problem tearing through 100 power armor marines. My "below average competitiveness" Ultramarines army can kill 35-40 tactical equivalents A TURN. And the majority of that comes from weapons with greater range than a bolter. Not to mention that 10 Plasma Cannons are barely enough to kill a single 10 wound vehicle a turn if it has an INV save, and at least one of those cannons is going to blow itself up each time they fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 It’s a list based on spamming objective secured. Keep in mind line of sight, ranges, cover, etc. I’m curious to know what lists can kill 45 Marines a turn :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I'm thinking Centurions with Heavy Bolters are a solid choice to help Codex Marines. Fairly cheap and they suck in fire that should be going to other units thanks to their stats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I'm sure other armies can do the objective secured game better than Marines though. Maybe it's a niche list that works for you at the moment because nobody expects it but I don't think it's generally a good list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Yeah it's the constant circle. But reading the missions from Chapter Approved 2018 and the armies that are difficult for Marines armies to face off against aren't suited to those missions very much. As an example, the Tau Caslte with Drone spam isn't moving into the centre of the board for Narrow the Search any time soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 @sfPanzer : The list as pasted is bad. The more proper way to run it would be with Lascannons and Flamers and keeping the PP/PF on the Sarge to pick off whatever comes close. Keep in mind the following : - All 100 Marines will be within 6” of the Captain/Lieutenant, so ALL of them will get the reroll bonuses. That’s a flat +35% upgrade on their firepower. That means you’re effectively running 14 Lascannons in your list. - That’s only a circle with a footprint of 12” diameter. Extremely easy to hide even without high terrain density. So you drastically limit the enemy incoming fire - You deploy all objectives close to each other (12” losange) so your full blob can Obsec 4 objectives at any given point by spreading out your Bolter guys - You have 13 command points, so one of your Captain can become Chapter Master and you get even sweeter rerolls - You keep your heavy weapons per squad until that squad has taken 70% casualties. It forces the opponent to deal 1 squad at a time - Nobody’s getting close to that density of Boltguns + charge + Flamers and rerolls. It’s functionally not as weak as it seems :) I ran a 1000pts variant with Missile Launchers and Plasma Guns, and I have killed 2 Armigers, 2 Rhinos and almost the third Armiger. Although, it’s not so much my style. These days I prefer barebones Troops to spread out across the board and put pressure on objectives, while I concentrate my ganking squads taking out the enemy piece by piece. —- Idaho is so right about the scenarios. It’s critical to design lists that can win scenarios, rather than maximizing firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 As an example, the Tau Caslte with Drone spam isn't moving into the centre of the board for Narrow the Search any time soon. Yeah and I'm pretty happy about that. The T'au Sept castle is about the most boring list I can imagine. I'm a T'au player as well but I always build mobile lists that want to leave the deployment zone (Stealth Suits and fish of fury ftw). ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Indeed there is far too much of an emphasis on Killhammer in the minds of many so it'll be good to see these sorts of changes come into the mindset of the hobby further. It would be hilarious if players start losing games after wiping out opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5246771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Wouldn't Vanguard vets be a better investment than assault marines though, or are they a different slot, or are you specifically choosing ASM because you are leaving the bling off of them and structuring them as harrassment, where with Vanguard you'd be tempted to bring claws, or hammer and shield, or fancy pistols, or power weapons, etc and that would "confuse" the issue? Something I want to ask (got a marine project building) how useful is something like combat Squads? That always seemed cool to me (coming from chaos marines and tau primarily) but that may be 'grass is greener' viewpoint, but using your 30 assault marines, you could make that 6 units of assault marines and make 6 fast moving targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5247820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 I love the idea of bare bones tacticals (or intecessors perhaps), with some dreads (non Primaris) backing them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5247833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Something I want to ask (got a marine project building) how useful is something like combat Squads? That always seemed cool to me (coming from chaos marines and tau primarily) but that may be 'grass is greener' viewpoint, but using your 30 assault marines, you could make that 6 units of assault marines and make 6 fast moving targets. It's retty much completely useless unless you run out of non-Troop slots or reach the 3 unit limit on tournaments (which rarely happens for Marine infantry). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5247834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 [...] you could make that 6 units of assault marines and make 6 fast moving targets. That's a possible total of 6 VP for your opponent instead of 3 and each VP will be a lot easier to score. Otoh, just as mobile roadblocks, those 6 squads could earn you their points and the VPs they're giving out back - provided your opponent uses a list that's reliant on the mobility of a few units. I've said it before somewhere else, but I'll say it again: Devastator Squads are better candidates for CSing - if you treat each squad as a S4 T4 W5 unit you want to keep out of CC. With 2 Lascannons, you're at 115pts for that S4 T4 W5 'model' packing 2 LCs. A S6 T7 W8 Dread with Twin Lascannons costs you 132 points. Combat Squads don't really boost our competitiveness a lot it seems. Bummer :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353531-how-to-improve-our-competitiveness/#findComment-5248191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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