Slaves to Darkness - Alpharius

[rendingon1+]

I don'tknow if it has been answered answered so my question is:

As a response to Horus' "Where is your Legion?", Alpharius draws his dagger and breaks it to pieces. What does it mean?
a) His legion has shattered/broken (internal strife) and is no longer under his control
b) Symbolic "we've done our job, wish you luck,bye"
c) Legion took too heavy loses, Alpharius withdraws it
d)?
As a side note - the best Alpharius ever.

[m_r_parker]

Fairly sure there were a couple of responses to these types of questions in the main Slaves to Darkness thread.

 

My take on it was:

It's a multi-faceted action that's symbolic of a few things.

Firstly I believe it represents the Alpha Legion as a whole  - where it was a complete blade with a single purpose, it's now nothing more than sharp fragments. With the Alpha Legion operating more akin to terrorist cells than a standard military organisation, and the head of the network now gone the rest falls under it's own direction and goals. Some may be aligned with Horus, others less so, but they're now more akin to the war bands that the traitor Legions fall into in the 41st Millennium. 

Secondly, I think it's the formal withdrawal of the Alpha Legion from Horus' side. As above, the Legion is fragmented and if Omegron were to want to take the head of the Legion then he wouldn't want it to be on the side of Horus.

Thirdly, with the coin being presented on the fractured pieces of the knife, it's the notification to Horus that Alpharius is dead - akin to the traditions in Cthonia.

[Charlo]

Spoilers for this and other books.... You've been warned!

 

I don't think it's been confirmed either way. But I suppose due to the events of Praetorian of Dorn, this isn't Alpharius but Omegon instead (Alph is Dead at the hands of Dorn).

 

Personally I think it's Alpharius Omegon saying that the Legion are both fractured beyond use and that he is also no longer Horus' weapon to command

 

@MRP - didn't realise that was the meaning of the coin. Cool!!!

[m_r_parker]

@Charlo

 

I think that's the meaning of the coin - there's been a few different sets of the significant coins through the series.

The first set was very early on in the series which were the lodge coins, showing membership to the lodges that the Word Bearers set up within the Legions.

The second were the Cthonian gang coins, which were placed over the eyes of dead gang members that were brought into the Luna Wolves (and subsequently the Sons of Horus). I think some of the Sons were talking about coins during the Slaves to Darkness novel, probably as an attempt to get us to remember them before they're used by 'Alpharius'.

 

However, it's all a little fuzzy in my head...

[rendingon1+]

Fairly sure there were a couple of responses to these types of questions in the main Slaves to Darkness thread.

 

My take on it was:

It's a multi-faceted action that's symbolic of a few things.

Firstly I believe it represents the Alpha Legion as a whole  - where it was a complete blade with a single purpose, it's now nothing more than sharp fragments. With the Alpha Legion operating more akin to terrorist cells than a standard military organisation, and the head of the network now gone the rest falls under it's own direction and goals. Some may be aligned with Horus, others less so, but they're now more akin to the war bands that the traitor Legions fall into in the 41st Millennium. 

Secondly, I think it's the formal withdrawal of the Alpha Legion from Horus' side. As above, the Legion is fragmented and if Omegron were to want to take the head of the Legion then he wouldn't want it to be on the side of Horus.

Thirdly, with the coin being presented on the fractured pieces of the knife, it's the notification to Horus that Alpharius is dead - akin to the traditions in Cthonia.

 

 

Spoilers for this and other books.... You've been warned!

 

I don't think it's been confirmed either way. But I suppose due to the events of Praetorian of Dorn, this isn't Alpharius but Omegon instead (Alph is Dead at the hands of Dorn).

 

Personally I think it's Alpharius Omegon saying that the Legion are both fractured beyond use and that he is also no longer Horus' weapon to command

 

@MRP - didn't realise that was the meaning of the coin. Cool!!!

Thanks for the respones.

Well, of course we know it's no real Alpharius ...but neither do we know it's Omegon Besides narrator refers to him as Alpharius so it doesn't really matter.

Coin thing, indeed it might hint of Alphrius' death; friend of mine claims it equls returning a "king's shilling" meaning "IMy servie to you is over". As for the Legion, did I miss the moment where it became splintered or it's just implied? And does it mean we won't see XX at the Siege?

[bluntblade]

The coins are given to a Cthonian ganger to signify their assignment to kill someone.

 

Interesting, I don't think I'd even spotted that.

[Biscuittzz]

So does the coin 'Alpharius' have inlaid in the knife signify his assignment to kill Dorn, which is know being returned as it failed?

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

Fairly sure there were a couple of responses to these types of questions in the main Slaves to Darkness thread.

 

My take on it was:

It's a multi-faceted action that's symbolic of a few things.

Firstly I believe it represents the Alpha Legion as a whole  - where it was a complete blade with a single purpose, it's now nothing more than sharp fragments. With the Alpha Legion operating more akin to terrorist cells than a standard military organisation, and the head of the network now gone the rest falls under it's own direction and goals. Some may be aligned with Horus, others less so, but they're now more akin to the war bands that the traitor Legions fall into in the 41st Millennium. 

Secondly, I think it's the formal withdrawal of the Alpha Legion from Horus' side. As above, the Legion is fragmented and if Omegron were to want to take the head of the Legion then he wouldn't want it to be on the side of Horus.

Thirdly, with the coin being presented on the fractured pieces of the knife, it's the notification to Horus that Alpharius is dead - akin to the traditions in Cthonia.

 

 

Spoilers for this and other books.... You've been warned!

 

I don't think it's been confirmed either way. But I suppose due to the events of Praetorian of Dorn, this isn't Alpharius but Omegon instead (Alph is Dead at the hands of Dorn).

 

Personally I think it's Alpharius Omegon saying that the Legion are both fractured beyond use and that he is also no longer Horus' weapon to command

 

@MRP - didn't realise that was the meaning of the coin. Cool!!!

Thanks for the respones.

Well, of course we know it's no real Alpharius ...but neither do we know it's Omegon Besides narrator refers to him as Alpharius so it doesn't really matter.

Coin thing, indeed it might hint of Alphrius' death; friend of mine claims it equls returning a "king's shilling" meaning "IMy servie to you is over". As for the Legion, did I miss the moment where it became splintered or it's just implied? And does it mean we won't see XX at the Siege?

 

 

The legions been pretty broken for a while now. Few of the novels or shorts have indicated that they were playing both sides and against each other. The Serpent Beneath and The Seventh Serpent were the biggest examples of that, even Praetorian of Dorn seems to imply Alpharius is still helping the loyalists.

 

End of the day, it's the XXth, so who the :cuss knows.

[rendingon1+]

Yes, I've read it all, but neither of these books implied larger, like Legion-breaking-larger conflicts. Every of these novels depict "skirmish scale" engagements of no more than 100 astartes in total.

[Mellow]

It’s been such a long time but can anyone remember which novel states/hints that Omegon is loyalist?

[Angel_of_Blood]

None of them state it, but I believe The Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent are the ones that imply it, or hint that he might be. But then again, Alpharius seems to be 'helping' the loyalists in Praetorian of Dorn, so who knows.

[Phoebus]

It’s been a while since I read Praetorian, but how is Alpharius helping the loyalists? He was systematically wrecking their outer defenses with his legion fleet, and (IIRC) only changed his tune insofar as trying to get Dorn to take a break from trying to kill each other to listen to his honeyed words.

[b1soul]

Indeed...it's very unclear.

I suppose the Alpha Legion could have timed their anarchy campaign on Terra with Horus' invasion but chose to blow their wad prematurely. Still, a lot of their actions were harmful to Imperial defences. If Alpharius wanted to help, he could've, y'know, just helped instead of undermined.

The AL have pathological OCD in that they simply cannot bring themselves to do something in a straightforward fashion. They must implement a convoluted scheme with intentionally obscured goals. So at the end of the day, yeah, it's the XXth...who knows.

[Fire Golem]

It’s been a while since I read Praetorian, but how is Alpharius helping the loyalists? He was systematically wrecking their outer defenses with his legion fleet, and (IIRC) only changed his tune insofar as trying to get Dorn to take a break from trying to kill each other to listen to his honeyed words.

When I read it, I got the impression that he was trying to show Dorn how his stoic, rigid way of war left gaps of more underhand methods to get through. But it’s the Alpha Legion, we won’t know what the plan was.

[mc warhammer]

well, laurie g did offer up the idea that alpharius was trying to help dorn and dorn was too stubborn to see it and that was the true tragedy of PoD

 

that was on the first exp boards, which seem to have disappeared

 

you can equally accuse alpharius of showboating to make the point, when he could have just left a one star review of the defenses of terra on the imperial fist website.

[Ashur]

I hope we get an inside look at the AL soon. So far we have seen them owning everybody and knowing everything about everyone. It would be good to see the legion's unity of purpose collapse from the inside and their lies finaly catching up to them. Perhaps things have come to a point where no one in the legion truly knows why they are fighting anymore, or who they can trust, or what cell is doing what, or how many cells there are left, under whose command, for what purpose...

[Angel_of_Blood]

It’s been a while since I read Praetorian, but how is Alpharius helping the loyalists? He was systematically wrecking their outer defenses with his legion fleet, and (IIRC) only changed his tune insofar as trying to get Dorn to take a break from trying to kill each other to listen to his honeyed words.

Well that’s why I say ‘helping’ and that he seemed to be. As the others have said, on the ‘loyalist’ side, he’s showing Dorn the gaps in his defence and how he needs to tighten them up, still quite a way in advance of the traitors final push. And though he caused a bit of havoc, it’s nothing that’s too bad or permanent really in the grand scheme of things. As to why that way and not just telling Dorn. Well as the authors said, Dorn is too rigid to listen and would never speak with Alpharius anyway, and as others said, the XXth seem to have that pathological need at times to do everything in a roundabout way.

 

On the other hand, yeah, could just have been him trying to bait Dorn and ruin his focus in the fight.

 

Again, it’s them, we’ll never know.

[Phoebus]

It’s one of those cases where I don’t doubt Laurie said this was the case or that John — whose writing I genuinely like — may have intended it to be that way. If that’s really what they were going for, though, it’s also another instance where “Primarchs also have their flaws turned to ELEVEN!!!” doesn’t make for very good — or plausible — reading.

 

Alpharius choosing to do things the more complicated, crueler way against an enemy earlier in Praetorian is all well and good. It’s not much of a stretch to accept a commander showing a lack of empathy toward his enemies or a lack of consideration for the aftermath of a war. Likewise, it’s not a stretch to accept that different primarchs with different value sets may approach war differently.

 

Alpharius infiltrating Terra, however, and causing havoc, murdering Imperial Fists left and right, sabotaging Dorn’s first line of defense, and then having a full-on invasion fleet commence full hostilities against his Legion doesn’t strike me as “helping,” though. Not in any sense of the word. Don’t get me wrong, I know my opinion isn’t worth a damn, and each reader is entitled to their own view.

[b1soul]

It would be foolhardy of Alpharius to do what he did and then expect any loyalist Primarch to trust his good intentions

[bluntblade]

I interpreted Alphariius' notion of victory as unchanged from his choice at the close of Legion.

[Angel_of_Blood]

Don’t get me wrong, I know my opinion isn’t worth a damn, and each reader is entitled to their own view.

Ah I’d say I’ve always thought quite a lot of your contributions. I think sadly the series has twisted and turned the Alpha Legion so much now that I’m open to just about any interpratation of their actions and also that nothing will ever get confirmed either. /shrug

[Phoebus]

I hear you, man. I appreciate the kind words, too; the feeling is mutual!

[mc warhammer]

i’m sure we can all agree that none of us would take alpharius’ approach

 

thought exercise:

 

you have to justify it as a loyalist move to help dorn anyway. how do you do so? saying “i can’t” is a cop out

[b1soul]

"I hurt you to help you, Rogal. I could have conveyed my point in a less damaging way, but I really wanted to drive the point home. Trust me, I did it for your own good, bro. BTW...about victory, I have the keys to it. Just do as I tell you [and acknowledge the superiority of my ways]."

 

EDIT: It's not impossible that Alpharius was being sincere with Dorn but he simply lacked the ability to build trust (which is, to put it mildly, not exactly his forte)

[mc warhammer]

i think you’ve got a great point there...that this was at least partially (and maybe at the core) about his relationship to dorn. he might not have taken this action with someone like sang, who he did not feel the need to validate himself to?