Slaves to Darkness - Alpharius

[b1soul]

I think you have a good point that's perhaps not exactly the same as mine.

 

I was more trying to say that Alpharius - even when he's sincerely trying to help (not impossible since in Abnett's Legion, I got a sense of a seed of nobility under all those layers of AL subterfuge) - lacks skill in one area despite his consummate skill in many others...he sucks at establishing trust. He's too good at destroying it, he lives in deception, but when he needs to convey a straightforward point to gain an ally, he bungles it fantastically.

 

This is of course assuming that Alparius' desire to help Dorn is sincere.

[mc warhammer]

i can see that. alpharius and omegon are incapable of communicating the way someone like dorn can accept.

 

and yeah, that assumption of sincerity is what we’re playing with

[mc warhammer]

contrasting that...perhaps alpharius thought he was speaking dornish:

 

“Why? Because we are the serpent Horus clasps close to his breast, while he only sees the flower. Battle was the only way to get close to you without arousing his curiosity.

 

Because words have always been lost on you my simple brother. The only way to break through the walls of your mind’s fortress is to assail them. That is the language you speak but the Alpha legion can master many tongues. Hear us.

 

Because this is how the emperor made me. Maybe now, you will accept that as virtue.”

[mc warhammer]

“plus whenever i sms you reply with new phone who dis”

[b1soul]

I think the thing with Dorn is he definitely has his own ego/temper, and he really is a very rigid primarch. So undermining Terra's defences at such a sensitive time would immediately make him extremely antagonistic toward you. With Dorn and his stubbornness, Alpharius is really treading on egg shells.

 

Still, it's funny to think that PoD is Alph's attempt at being more straightforward

[mc warhammer]

sounds like exercise number 2...considering all the factors, what other action could alpharius have tajen to communicate with dorn successfully?

[b1soul]

By not being Alpharius? LOL...it's a tough one

 

I feel sorry for Alpharius. The cost of employing deception as your primary tool is no one trusts you. On top of that, Alph has to win over arguably thre most uptight, straight-arrow Primarch to his cause

[Fedor]

Alpharius did seem to be legit trying to kill Dorn in close combat., not just incapacitate him to initiate a discussion.

 

The split in the Alpha LEgion plotline that seemed to be hinting at Omegon maybe staying loyalist was never really developed enough after the initial short story and novella(which i think may have been as much McNeill going off doing his own crazy thing rather than a tightly integrated plotline) to solidly speculate where either are in terms of loyalty by the time of PoD.

[Sete]

Yeah I'm glad that everyone idea of help is not impaling you with a spear.

[bluntblade]

Yeah, the Omegon question actually could do with answering

[Ogun]

Alpharius did seem to be legit trying to kill Dorn in close combat., not just incapacitate him to initiate a discussion.

 

The split in the Alpha LEgion plotline that seemed to be hinting at Omegon maybe staying loyalist was never really developed enough after the initial short story and novella(which i think may have been as much McNeill going off doing his own crazy thing rather than a tightly integrated plotline) to solidly speculate where either are in terms of loyalty by the time of PoD.

 

That was my reading too. 

The idea that he was trying to help Dorn does not really make much sense in the context of what he does or the fight which followed. Alpharius was trying to kill him. But... and I think this is potentially far more interesting psychologically, I think Alpharius was trying to communicate with Dorn, but for a completely different reason. First, he was seeking a sort of validation by proving his method of war worked. Second, Alpharius almost seems to want to explain to his brother why he is doing what he is doing, and that by following his path he is in fact helping humanity (as per the acuity). A sort of 'yes, I'm going to kill you, but don't take it personally. I'm actually helping so don't feel bad'. 

In a peculiar sort of way, it's an almost touching moment on Alpharius' part. Dorn just isn't the most receptive person to try it on...

[Kelborn]

I understood it that Alpharius wanted to show Dorn the following:

 

- your static defense is full of wholes and I made use of it

- your static idealism and conviction deny you the ability of seeing your flaws and that of your defense

- you cannot prevent Horus' coming, he will arrive sooner than you think and you're not prepared

- for showing you your weakness, my Legion/ way is superior

- you never gave me a chance

- I've got a reason to do this, just listen to me

 

That's my impression. It has been a while since I've read PoD but there was a flashback scene in which Dorn accused Alpharius and said that they would never be close to each other, etc. etc.

Maybe Alpharius only wanted to be respected by his "older" brothers. Who knows?

 

But just the fact that we're discussing this topic and the inaccurancy in the ALs portrayal in general, seems to be that they (BL) have done it right.

[mc warhammer]

so i was just reading an article about online trolling syndicates. one of their behaviours is to attack mainstream journalism by making up news to create confusion and to point out media's flaws. they see it as a way of debating.

so, could PoD just be the primarch equivalent of a debate? instead of a stage and a lectern, they use the battleground?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Possibly also just the fact that the Alpha Legion are very Darwinian. If Dorn was taught a lesson without having to fight for it, then he didn't deserve to learn the lesson. If Imperial Fists die in learning the faults of the Terran defenses, then it's better that their weakness was excised then before they had to face Horus, and now the survivors are stronger from their removal. Simply being handed the info promotes weakness, weakness that will be exploited by Horus when his forces arrive.

[b1soul]

It's also possible that Alph genuinely thought merely conveying the info verbally would not have convinced Dorn. He had to show Dorn, not merely tell Dorn. In all likelihood, Alph also has a massive ego and chip on his shoulder. Why not humble Dorn and prove the power of the AL's methods in the process?

 

I do like the idea that Alph's actions in PoD were actually intended to be less convoluted, and he was genuinely trying to communicate in his way

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's also possible that Alph genuinely thought merely conveying the info verbally would not have convinced Dorn. He had to show Dorn, not merely tell Dorn. In all likelihood, Alph also has a massive ego and chip on his shoulder. Why not humble Dorn and prove the power of the AL's methods in the process?

 

I do like the idea that Alph's actions in PoD were actually intended to be less convoluted, and he was genuinely trying to communicate in his way

 

Dorn: And I should I believe the word of a traitor?

 

Alpharius: Uhh... because I've just demonstrated it as fact, in a less destructive way than Horus would?

[mc warhammer]

all primarchs score 10 or below on the EQ test

[mc warhammer]

 

 

It's also possible that Alph genuinely thought merely conveying the info verbally would not have convinced Dorn. He had to show Dorn, not merely tell Dorn. In all likelihood, Alph also has a massive ego and chip on his shoulder. Why not humble Dorn and prove the power of the AL's methods in the process?

 

I do like the idea that Alph's actions in PoD were actually intended to be less convoluted, and he was genuinely trying to communicate in his way

Dorn: And I should I believe the word of a traitor?

 

Alpharius: Uhh... because I've just demonstrated it as fact, in a less destructive way than Horus would?

 

consider yourself lucky, in other words?

 

i remember my old boxing teacher wouldn't tell us when our stances were off...he'd just come and kick our legs or give us a shove so we'd fall over and learn the hard way.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

It's also possible that Alph genuinely thought merely conveying the info verbally would not have convinced Dorn. He had to show Dorn, not merely tell Dorn. In all likelihood, Alph also has a massive ego and chip on his shoulder. Why not humble Dorn and prove the power of the AL's methods in the process?

 

I do like the idea that Alph's actions in PoD were actually intended to be less convoluted, and he was genuinely trying to communicate in his way

 

Dorn: And I should I believe the word of a traitor?

 

Alpharius: Uhh... because I've just demonstrated it as fact, in a less destructive way than Horus would?

 

 

 

consider yourself lucky, in other words?

 

i remember my old boxing teacher wouldn't tell us when our stances were off...he'd just come and kick our legs or give us a shove so we'd learn the hard way.

 

 

That's exactly the logic I see Alpharius as having. There's no benefit to just telling someone of their vulnerability, you have to demonstrate exactly how. If they're strong, they'll survive. If not, well, the galaxy has no place for the weak.

[Heliomanes]

I loved Legion, but couldn't stomach PoD at all.

 

I really miss the sense of nuance and believability I found in the former. Reading threads like this gives me hope that there is a way to interpret the storyline into something a bit more interesting than what I did in my own initial reading.

[b1soul]

I think Abnett's Legion is superior to French's PoD, but the latter is still a very solid effort

 

I think Sanders' Long Games at Carcharias is what kicked off the memes

[Phoebus]

To expand on my earlier thoughts:

 

Assuming French’s idea was for Alpharius to try to communicate and/or help Dorn in a manner that’s both very unconventional, destructive, and informed by the context of the XXth Primarch’s flaws, I think it’s another example of a plot device that wasn’t thought through critically enough. I appreciate the ideas that several of you have shared here as to how that concept could work, but — respectfully — I think they require quite a leap of logic.

 

What I mean by this, is that Alpharius’s actions in Praetorian or Dorn’s reaction to them can’t be viewed in isolation... but that’s practically the only way the former’s approach can be justified. At the risk of sounding super obvious, before his final encounter with Dorn on Hydra Moon Fortress Alpharius had been part of a years-long civil war that tore the Imperium in half. His first known move in that conflict was to backstab three legions to nigh-oblivion. That was the most duplicitous and devastating betrayal of Dorn’s existence, other than Horus renouncing his vows. Alpharius’s side in this war has committed atrocities of such unthinkable type and in such a scale that they’re considered horrific even by a dystopian Imperium.

 

That’s the context that informs how Dorn views Alpharius and absolutely should inform how French writes those characters, their intent, and their actions (and reactions).

 

It’s that same context makes it so hard for me to believe that Alpharius thought a show of force that comes at the cost of yet more lives Dorn cares about (not to mention a fortress moon, warships, etc.) would somehow work as a message of sorts. I think it’s even more of a stretch for Alpharius to genuinely think his brother would pause in the middle of single combat (where neither brother is pulling punches and warriors are dropping dead around them, no less) to hear him out.

 

For this concept to work, Alpharius would need to have a highly unconventional mindset, especially in terms of his understanding of how people work. The problem with this is that the glimpses we get at Alpharius’s thought process don’t support that notion. Alpharius is generally shown being ruthless, pragmatic, secretive, calculating. His most prevalent character flaw is something ranging from a superiority complex to outright hubris. I can’t recall him, however, being shown as someone who didn’t understand his opponents (or subject of attention*). Yet if we are to argue that Alpharius was somehow trying to obliquely communicate with, or help Dorn, we must accept that he was monumentally wrong regarding how his approach would be received. More to the point, Alpharius being that wrong raises questions about his credibility as a character. Can someone can be so off in their understanding of a person they know quite well but nonetheless be two or three steps ahead on so many other schemes against so many other factions? I don’t think that idea can stand serious scrutiny.

 

Thus, as counter-intuitive as it may sound where the Alpha Legion is concerned, I think in this case the shortest line between two points is the right answer. Alpharius infiltrated Terra and kick-started a series of incredibly complex plots because, well, that’s how the Alpha Legion go about wrecking an enemy’s defenses. He was going on about helping Dorn while also trying to spear him because, well, wrong-footing people is something the Alpha Legion like to do.

 

* Perhaps the only person Alpharius is shown being wrong about is, ironically, the only person he implicitly trusts: his twin brother, Omegon.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I definitely agree, Phoebus. If anything, it could just be that Alpharius was preparing for both eventualities. If he loses, then Dorn now has awareness of the vulnerabilities. If he wins, then congrats, Dorn is now dead, and the stage is set for Horus to arrive. Could even be that there's an element of "let's go for a third option from what the Cabal showed, where I take the throne instead".

[mc warhammer]

all this assumes that alpharius "helping dorn" means having dorn understand that fact.  if "helping" simply means making dorn realise the weaknesses in his defenses whilst still appearing to be on horus' side...well, that seems more in line with their entire game plan.

 

after all, it IS the effect that alpharius ultimately has: dorn orders a “systematic sweep of the system’s defenses, and reconfiguration of elements which are found wanting.”  dorn apparently goes to malcador to discuss using ways of war he previously wouldn't even consider.

 

so, even though he paid for it with his life, it appears that alpharius achieved his stated goal.

[b1soul]

Alpharius, the hardcore loyalist who dies to show his simple-minded brother the error of his rigid, unimaginitive ways. Dayum...that would make Dorn look the fool