Slaves to Darkness - Alpharius

[Heliomanes]

Though it strains my ability to suspend my disbelief to its limit, at least it is a better story than the Alpharius who got outwitted by Heath Ledger's Joker. "You think I'd risk everything in a fist fight with you?!"

[bluntblade]

I'm with Phoebus on this

[Phoebus]

I definitely agree, Phoebus. If anything, it could just be that Alpharius was preparing for both eventualities. If he loses, then Dorn now has awareness of the vulnerabilities. If he wins, then congrats, Dorn is now dead, and the stage is set for Horus to arrive. Could even be that there's an element of "let's go for a third option from what the Cabal showed, where I take the throne instead".

But again, this comes down to what the authors provide us with. In practice, Alpharius has stuck to script throughout the Horus Heresy. Besides the Isstvan Dropsite Massacres, he has eliminated loyalist factions of the Alpha Legion, sabotaged the Raven Guard gene-seed project, undermined and attacked the Shattered Legions, interfered with the White Scars, and done grievous damage to the Space Wolves. In that last engagement, he had to be driven off by a loyal Dark Angels fleet. He doesn’t do these things because they help his targets in any way. He doesn’t do them because he agrees with Horus, of course, or because he’s thrown his lot in with the Ruinous Powers. Rather, Alpharius does what he does in the Heresy because he believes the Cabal’s assertions that Humanity needs to be wiped out for Chaos to be defeated. Horus being defeated doesn’t achieve this; nor does winning the throne for himself.

 

For this to work, then, Alpharius would needed to have a change of heart. Is there anything we can point to that supports that idea? By contrast, we have ample proof of Omegon’s defection — and much of it is when he covertly works against his twin brother.

 

all this assumes that alpharius "helping dorn" means having dorn understand that fact. if "helping" simply means making dorn realise the weaknesses in his defenses whilst still appearing to be on horus' side...well, that seems more in line with their entire game plan.

 

after all, it IS the effect that alpharius ultimately has: dorn orders a “systematic sweep of the system’s defenses, and reconfiguration of elements which are found wanting.” dorn apparently goes to malcador to discuss using ways of war he previously wouldn't even consider.

 

so, even though he paid for it with his life, it appears that alpharius achieved his stated goal.

If Alpharius was “trying to point out weaknesses,” he was doing so with the same intensity that he applied to the already crippled and outnumbered Space Wolves fleet at the Alaxxes Nebula. At some point, we need to acknowledge that for any of this hypothesis to work, the damage Alpharius caused would need to be repairable. With that in mind, let’s recall that Alpharius attacked with a full armada, and at one point was using the entire firepower of a fortress moon against another such satellite — with no indication that he was looking to stop.

 

Though it strains my ability to suspend my disbelief to its limit, at least it is a better story than the Alpharius who got outwitted by Heath Ledger's Joker. "You think I'd risk everything in a fist fight with you?!"

I mean, in the end all of the Primarchs are a form of warrior-warlord. They all have peculiar differences insofar as how they fight, when they fight, and why they fight, but at the end of the day fight they do. Alpharius operates as a sort of chessmaster who likes to move in for the kill after all the pieces are positioned just so.

[Fedor]

Alpharius probably thought that sweet Necron tech spear would be an easy match for the lame bog-standard chainsword Dorn always favours.

 

The man is in bad need of a gear upgrade  for the Siege.

[bluntblade]

One of my favourite things in PoD was the emphasis that the Alpha Legion is very much a Legion.

[mc warhammer]

regarding this thread; can’t really disagree phoebus, everything you say matches up and it’s the most obvious read of the situation that makes sense

 

but it’s not necessarily the most fun, and personally i like to explore options before settling

 

i was brought up on stories where a man murders most of New York in order to save humanity or a servant builds a killer robot to teach others that killing is bad. the themes were always more important to me than the practicals

 

also, i find that 30/40k for me is about extremes. it’s a universe where a primarch performs decimation of his legion cos they were only scoring an A rather than an A +

 

basically, barely anything these characters do makes sense to me

 

regarding alpharius’ motives in PoD i’ve seen other theories floating around; that alpharius wanted to convert dorn, replace dorn with himself or that he was set up to die by omegon

 

“I came here for you, Rogal… This is about victory. True victory… Look at this. Look at what I have done here. This is not a war you can win your way… But you are blind to what you are fighting. We are both fighting for the future, Rogal… I did this so that you would understand… So that you would see that you cannot win. I am not here to kill you, brother. I am not here for Horus. I am here to give you victory… I know the enemy, I know your weaknesses, and theirs. I know the truth… I can give you victory, brother.”

 

 

regarding the scene in slaves...what did we make of horus’ reaction to “alpharius”?

[DarkChaplain]

I think Horus knows he got what he could've expected from the Alpha Legion at this point, being content with the plans for the Sol System and Dorn's defences being delivered as a final delivery by "Alpharius", but realizing that the AL, with how internally shattered as they are, are beyond real control even by their Primarch. Their cells will either aid him at Sol, or they'll stay out of it. I doubt he ever expected his shadowy brother to actually come with his entire Legion to the Siege to begin with - that was never the task he gave them, he always used their covert ops abilities where necessary.

 

It'd also surprise me if he didn't consider Argonis' own involvement on Tallarn, and the AL's involvement there, or other, similarly contradictory engagements throughout the war. He may as well be glad to be rid of an element of uncertainty from his plans, leaving only the cells that are truly committed to the cause remain, without forcing anything by his authority as Warmaster and potentially turning the knife around.

We've seen Horus lamenting that "[Alpharius's] blindness places a knife at his own back", years ago, before Molech.

[bluntblade]

Doesn't that also parallel the first scene in Praetorian? Actually my Kindle is here:

 

"It is true that he and his sons are flawed, but that is only another reason to use him now, while his skills are still relevant."

[Orwell84]

We've seen Horus lamenting that "[Alpharius's] blindness places a knife at his own back", years ago, before Molech.

 

Have we actually seen that play out? Perhaps I'm too literal minded but I don't Alpharius getting backstabbed any time. Would've been cool to read if it had been done convincingly though :)

[bluntblade]

What was the context for that one?

[Orwell84]

What was the context for that one?

 

The audio short Warmaster, when Horus is talking to the skull of Ferrus Manus and lamenting the primarchs he's been saddled with.

 

"You would say that I listened too much to Alpharius and Lorgar – that a war fought with deceit is doomed to fail. Perhaps you would be right. The Hydra does not see all, and now his blindness places a knife at his own back. Corax would not have made such an error."

[DarkChaplain]

I wouldn't be surprised if it refered to Chondax, after Omegon's task force enabled the White Scars to learn of the Heresy in The Serpent Beneath, something that went directly against Alpharius' plans. Even if Horus didn't know about the schism and that the AL themselves ended the blackout, it'd put the Legion between the Wolves and the Scars.

 

And good call, bluntblade. I thought PoD had something of the sort in the opening scene with Lupercal, but I wasn't able to double-check this morning. Good to see he basically spelled it out there!

[Biscuittzz]

The plans and information Alpharius provided Horus about the Sol system and Terra's defences are intentionally misleading and/or sabotaged to cause an event leading to the lowering of the Vengeful Spirit's shields. Alpharius playing the long con all along.

 

My theory. 

[Wulfburk]

Either that or  Dorn is smart enough to redo the placements of his defences mostly so it may all be out of date. And the Blood Angels and the White Scars werent there during PoD yet yeah? So certainly it is almost useless information, as just the presence of the two legions certainly made a rearrangement of all the defences in the system.

[Beren]

I personally think that Alpharius was referring to the Cabal's plan and how it would eventually see Horus' downfall, even though Dorn's death was a necessity. Alpharius was trying to tell Dorn that the Loyalists could not win, but that it didn't matter. Even when the Traitors claimed victory, Alpharius would ensure their downfall.

[Balthamal]

Just my 2p

 

I would disagree with the theory on the coin representing Alpharius' death. The Alpha Legion were meticulous beyond the point of compulsion in concealing the fact they had a pair of Primarchs, they'd never be so gauche as to admit it in front of the Warmaster's court that not only was there a second Primarch but he had also fallen to Dorn

 

[Phoebus]

regarding this thread; can’t really disagree phoebus, everything you say matches up and it’s the most obvious read of the situation that makes sense

but it’s not necessarily the most fun, and personally i like to explore options before settling

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to spoil anyone’s fun — and I get that everyone has their own definition for that word. I’m simply responding to the hypothesis that Alpharius is trying to do something other than destabilize Terra, break down her outer defenses, and/or kill Rogal Dorn.

 

also, i find that 30/40k for me is about extremes. it’s a universe where a primarch performs decimation of his legion cos they were only scoring an A rather than an A +

basically, barely anything these characters do makes sense to me

For me, it comes down to the individual situation’s context. I enjoy the depiction of certain extremes, whereas others leave me underwhelmed. For example:

 

For example, all manner of awful things are done by the Emperor’s regime. Is he aware of most of it? Probably not. Would he be concerned by it? Again, probably not. The Emperor strikes me as a creature that operates at the absolute macro level. He’s about species survival: defeating the Ruinous Powers and shepherding Humanity through its psychic evolution. Compared to those things, the daily atrocities committed by the Imperium — on a galactic scale — are probably as troubling to him as stepping on ant-hills would be to us. With that in mind, I’d guess even the depravities of Angron and Curze wouldn’t have been an issue if they didn’t also have an adverse effect on the larger Crusade.

 

By contrast, Perturabo decimates his legion for doing... well... more or less the same things Perturabo asked of them after he took command. The only meaningful difference between IV legion tactics and strategy before and after the discovery of their primarch seems to be intent. That is, the early legion masters seem to have accepted horrific losses out of sheer stubbornness, whereas Perturabo did so as a calculated loss. Accordingly, Perturabo’s complaints about his legion being abused and mistreated strike me as nonsensical or outright dishonest. That just... doesn’t strike me as interesting. Absent other data, I have a hard time accepting that this is a character flaw as opposed to just poor writing.

[mc warhammer]

i hear ya, but the behavior you describe is classic abuser mentality.

 

contradiction makes a character

 

i feel haley’s perturabo satisfactorily made that work for me.

[b1soul]

Perturabo desperately wants validation but tries to pretend that he doesn't. I think that flaw work for me.

 

The massive "calculated losses" he inflicts upon the IVth border upon Grimderp. If war is an equation, superior forms of victory tend to minimize your side's casualties. Perturabo seems to be bad at math.

[Phoebus]

Again, I think it depends on the specific situation. Hannibal Lecter is an interesting character because his brutal violence and taboo cannibalism are contradicted by his intellectual pursuits and cultured manner. They are central facets of his character, and are well qualified by the author — through his behavior and in the way other characters perceive and react to him. Perturabo’s latest dogmatic/doctrinal hypocrisy, on the other hand, is never defined as such, much less meaningfully explored since Forge World’s Extermination*. It’s only looked at indirectly, by the reader.

 

That last bit is the distinction I’m driving at. Readers obviously have the right to explore their own ideas of what the story means. At some point, though, it becomes an exercise in providing the author (or, rather, the larger writing team) an out.

 

* With Angel Exterminatus, McNeill rehabilitated Perturabo’s character and addressed the inconsistencies of his earlier complaints (about being a siege-minded Legion and garrisoning various stronghold). Barely two years later, though, Perturabo was re-painted as a primarch with no real love for his own legion.

[DarkChaplain]

To be fair, Angel Exterminatus is set not long after Perturabo cast off the shackles he believed the Emperor put on him. He believed he was forgiven for his perceived errors, and the events at Olympia, by Horus, who may value him more for his talents. After that, he got betrayed by his brother Fulgrim, got shown how awful the warp really is, how degenerate the Emperor's Children have become, and got spat out on the way to Tallarn after escaping Fulgrim's attempt to sacrifice him. He then waged a crippling war on Tallarn for a year, before being slapped down by Horus flexing his Warmaster powers after Molech, and put to the exact same stuff that he hated under the Emperor. By Slaves to Darkness, he almost comes to grips with his role and accepts it as his lot.

 

And don't forget that Perturabo had always been a Primarch who basically abandoned his Legion for 10 millennia by retreating in solitude on Medrengard. He did the whole Iron Cage thing, and then left the Long War, despite his ascension. Only now with the 13th Black Crusade is he supposed to be back in real action.

[Morovir]

The portrayal in Slaves to Darkness isn't the problem, it's his portrayal in Extermination, and the infamous decimation scene.

[Phoebus]

To be fair, Angel Exterminatus is set not long after Perturabo cast off the shackles he believed the Emperor put on him. He believed he was forgiven for his perceived errors, and the events at Olympia, by Horus, who may value him more for his talents.

To be clear, I’m not opposed to how Perturabo was depicted in Angel (though there may very well be parts about his portrayal that I forgot). If anything, McNeill clarified some of gripes with the Emperor and made them more plausible. I’m more referring to the infamous decimation scene and the way he seems to view his legion in the (otherwise excellent) Forge World books. With hindsight, I can appreciate that this makes for a shaky example given the actual topic.

 

And don't forget that Perturabo had always been a Primarch who basically abandoned his Legion for 10 millennia by retreating in solitude on Medrengard. He did the whole Iron Cage thing, and then left the Long War, despite his ascension. Only now with the 13th Black Crusade is he supposed to be back in real action.

I genuinely didn’t mind that angle. However Perturabo was handled, his general concept made it likely that defeat in Terra would result in a self-imposed exile, Iron Cage or not.