Help me like the new guys

[aura_enchanted]

So I want to talk a little bit about the primaris and my issues with many of them. I can't see any useful applications for any of them at all barring 1 exception which ill discuss shortly.

 

So let's start with elite characters so the ancient and apothecary. The apothecary is more durable then the normal one but as a dark angel we have the ravenwing apothecary and the deathwing apoth the latter being tougher to kill if only marginally and the former being much better armed and able to throw himself across a table at the drop of a hat. And your going to see this gripe come up a lot. The primaris simply cannot cross a table effectively at all and so they make good defensive units when the enemy must come to them but struggle going on offense unlike other marines who have deep strikes and transport, and jump packs and bikes.

 

Then we get to the ancient, the primaris ancient is okay, he's got the same problem though in that he's conpetition is a resilient boi who can deepstrike and a fast guy on a bike. It's less relevant since you want him out of the fighting supplying a banner bonus as long as is practical but he is still a walking guy in an army that needs to be mobile and get up and move. This is one of the reasons bike marines always do well.

 

Then we hit the troops the intercessors, what even are these perversions of the emperors works. They have no special weapons beyond a grenade launcher, their guns aren't that much better then bolters were anyway, and they aren't any further reaching. Sure their more resilient and more tough but that alone doesn't make up for the utility of the tactical squads. Tacticals can load up to take down specific foes, anti tank, anti monster, even anti horde with Flamers is possible and here we have a bunch of guys who would feel more at home in a box of space crusade then 40k.

 

This is another issue with the primaris a lack of weapon variety, to tool units to a task is the staple of a space marines units, from the scout to the land raider we have tools for a hundred jobs and prep time is all you really need to crack a given type of foe. I argue this is the greatest crime of the primaris. Being so one dimensional units robs them of potential and paired with the fact I can't get them up and moving without a wall of martyrs bunker for escape hatch shenanigans or a repulsor which costs as much as a land raider Helios I can't sit here and justify the whole lot of them.

 

Even hellblasters this amazingly popular unit baffles me, their 24" guns, yes it's a lot of high quality plasma but its stuck on a walking torso. It's a wonder they get to fire at all at the enemy before they get out ranged and shunted off the table.

 

The glorious exception is the interceptor, and the interceptors biggest issue is that we have black Knights, and you'll never beat a flat line of consistent high quality preformance from black Knights over the interceptors but I can at least understand. The interceptors make sense to me why people use them. Am I missing some piece to their grand design? Am I ignorant to some greater truth? All I see is a bunch of big useles plastic

[Hellunder]

Both intercessors and hellblasters have range 30” which is pretty decent, guess intrercessors also are getting better with the new beta bolter rules. On the other hand ravenwing are also better now with the attack squadron...

[RevenantDA]

While Primaris does suffer from mobility options, unless you load in a repulsor.. the great thing about DA Primaris is they synergize well with an Azrael castle.  Banner bearer + hellblasters + Azrael is a strong combination to knock off big units and making your troops resilient.  Almost al hellblasters i have seen run the 30" rapid fire variant and slowlly march with Azrael up the board.  Throw in a dark shroud and that is a uber strong castle to take down.  Throw in a Primaris Lt. in that unit for rerolling the 1's on wounds and it's even stronger, with a good CC presence, as their stats are that just that much better than a standard Lt.  

 

Intercessors received a big buff with the new bolter rule.  30" range to double tap.. means sitting back on objectives with 2 wounds and cover (hopefully) is a tough unit to move.  I use scouts currently, but will probably build intercessors if the rule is finalized.  

 

I haven't used aggressors yet, nor seen them in action, so I can't comment on them yet.  

 

As in a previous post, someone said with DA...either run a Hellblaster/Azrael castle, or you run Ravenwing.  Those are our 2 strongest strengths.

 

Whenever I play a match, my first target on SM armies is their hellblasters, and none of them run DA, so I don't have to contend with a 4++ protecting them.  I shoot them off the board with a Talonmaster nearby to deny them cover...  once they are dead, the rest usually follows as those are the heavy hitters in smaller games.

[HandsWithLegs]

The -1 AP on the intercessors basic gun (really the only one worth using) is also useful, giving them just a little more punch compared to regular marines. Helps with a lot of different types of troops, especially with how they can handle them at a greater distance than most armies, and as others have said the extra wound can make them hard to shift. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

As a public and unashamed Primaris Haterboi, I concur with your last sentence. They are a waste of plastic :devil:

But to be constructive, the other options you mentioned eg. RW and DW are for the meantime better. Use them and be a proud Son of the Lion.

+++Not too Proud+++

[aura_enchanted]

While Primaris does suffer from mobility options, unless you load in a repulsor.. the great thing about DA Primaris is they synergize well with an Azrael castle. Banner bearer + hellblasters + Azrael is a strong combination to knock off big units and making your troops resilient. Almost al hellblasters i have seen run the 30" rapid fire variant and slowlly march with Azrael up the board. Throw in a dark shroud and that is a uber strong castle to take down. Throw in a Primaris Lt. in that unit for rerolling the 1's on wounds and it's even stronger, with a good CC presence, as their stats are that just that much better than a standard Lt.

 

Intercessors received a big buff with the new bolter rule. 30" range to double tap.. means sitting back on objectives with 2 wounds and cover (hopefully) is a tough unit to move. I use scouts currently, but will probably build intercessors if the rule is finalized.

 

I haven't used aggressors yet, nor seen them in action, so I can't comment on them yet.

 

As in a previous post, someone said with DA...either run a Hellblaster/Azrael castle, or you run Ravenwing. Those are our 2 strongest strengths.

 

Whenever I play a match, my first target on SM armies is their hellblasters, and none of them run DA, so I don't have to contend with a 4++ protecting them. I shoot them off the board with a Talonmaster nearby to deny them cover... once they are dead, the rest usually follows as those are the heavy hitters in smaller games.

Aggressors are a poor mans centurion in fact their a suckers centurion, there are transports wild and crazy and overpriced transports I can mount up centurions into like mastadons and storm eagles and transport them in, I can even mount long range heavy weapons like lascannons to them. But the aggressor tries to be a short range anti infantry centurion with fists and bolters that tries to anti tank with missiles and it's trash.

 

The aggressor would be a great In a world where they weren't released in an era where anti infantry firepower has never been easier for a marine to output. Aggressors would also be great if drop pods didn't suck eggs and they could be used against or for you. As then they become decent ranged units with built in deep strike protections

[HandsWithLegs]

Honestly the thing I like most about them is the sculpts. Most of the units are just gorgeous, and I find them way better than the older sculpts for the basic marines, although that may be partly because I'm newer to the hobby and don't have the same nostalgic connections to many of the older sculpts and styles that some people do

[Chaplain Lucifer]

It's already one year and a half since they were released. If someone doesn't like them by now it's difficult the opinion will change unless they either get new rules or equipment or both.

Just play DA the way you like it and don't think much of stuff that doesn't make you happy.

[UtariOnzo]

Primaris units like hellblasters and Intercessors work best in castle formations with Azzy and a dark shroud when the aim of the game is to unleash death on your troops. In missions with objectives, you’re better off sticking with RW and scouts. Inceptors are great for selectively eliminating, or at the least weakening, problematic enemy units. Aggressors are the exception, being a bit “meh” to be honest.

 

If you stop thinking of them as “replacements” for current regular marine units and more like the niche specialists that they are, you’ll start to figure out how they best fit in with any given match up.

[Trevak Dal]

They seem hard in the paint set for anti infantry. I think the inteceptor/Space Marine Crisis Suits are a better version than bikes...but I'm heavily biased against space marines riding bikes (that should be a guard thing/rough riders) it's never appealed to me. The new Bolter rules favor bikes a lot.

 

I'm concerned about how "future proof" things like the repulsor and hellblasters are. They are great now, but what if GeeDubs nerfs (as they inevitably will) the repulsor into not being a transport, or plasma gets nerfed again?

 

I hate how you can't customize your lieutenants and captains. You can't have a priCap with a powerfist and bolt rifle, or a powerfist and bolt pistol. You can't have a lieutenant with a boltrifle.

 

I hate how the Primaris marines with their Primaris bolters are stuck with Regular Marine pistols, the only regular marine thing they can use.

 

They should be allowed to use drop pods and landraiders, and stormravens end of line. It's a house rule I would push for.

 

Same with tacs being able to use repulsors. That is some marketing bull:cuss and :cuss GeeDub for that.

[shabbadoo]

As to Primaris Space Marines, the sculpts are very good and the molding (like almost anything that came out after the revamped Skaven war machines) is just downright spectacular.  Mold lines are barely extant on the models, and the fit and finish is fantastic. So, that is not the problem. One problem is that the concepts are hit-and-miss, and one of the sculpts is comparatively crap, to put it bluntly.  Let me break it down...
 
* Primaris Intercessors: great design, great kit, good concept. Basically a tougher, longer ranged Tactical Squad with a solely anti-infantry fire support focus. Best used in demi-squads. Nice looking models.
 
* Primaris Hellblasters: once gain, great sculpts, great kit, good concept. Similar to Intercessors, but they are a unit with an anti-heavy infantry/-light armor/-monster focus. Once again, best used in demi-squads. Also nice looking models.
 
* Primaris Inceptors: Clunky design, but a great kit, poor concept. Talk about armor that is an unwieldy looking contraption, let alone those bolter weapons with the gun shield and bar thingy out front (and with no reinforcement to the arms of the models to hold those monstrosities). Just a plain fugly unit. As to the unit's purpose, it is decent enough, but this unit is still not tough enough to weather much in the way of return fire once it drops in, so larger units are more effective. The downside to the larger unit size is that you have to have more of these fugly models.  Looks-wise, these models are just too "children's toys"-like for my taste. Maybe that's the demographic they think they need to be appealing to, but what they need to realize is that 10-12 year-olds don't like lame little kid toys. They are drawn to what teenagers interested in.  These "pocket battleship" jump troops just look awful. They could have been more of a heavy fire support force instead, as I wouldn't pair jump packs with only shooty weapon armament on space marines. I believe there is an army where this is literally part of their shtick, and they are called the Tau. Why in the Emperor's colostomy bag does this unit even exist?
 
* Primaris Reivers: Good design, great kit, poor/good concept. Primaris scouts...with iconic "Chaplain-esque" death masks that make them "scary." Primaris Chaplains are not "scary," but these guys are for some reason? Also, for somebody who says they're totally not in the process of remaking the Space Marine line, boy are they sure trying to cover their bases. But enough of that for now. The death mask is just down right blasphemous. Chaplains only!!! Re-breather masks would have looked better. Otherwise, infiltrating Primaris is a cool concept. Should have went with a sabotage angle instead of a "scary" angle though, and perhaps offered a shorter ranged, up-powered sniper carbine option (R 24", Str X, Ap-1, Dmg 1, Rapid Fire, additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll of 6). And demo-charges. Other than for the mask, I like the models quite a bit.
 
* Primaris Aggessors: Clunky design, great kit, poor concept. Guns should have made less bulky, and the ammo sources should have been only on the backpack. That would have done the model a world of good.
 
Me: "Re...remember when... Robert Downey Junior...er...Iron Man...uh. came out of the cave wearing the armor...and he, he...roasted those guys...with two flamer throwers? That...that was awesome."  [Chris Farley, we miss you]
 
GW: "Funny you should mention that. We made something like that. Huh. Yes, they do look like a lot like the *unique* Gauntlets of Ultramar. Hadn't thought of that.  Make the gauntlets clunkier then. No, clunkier. No. CLUNKIER.  Perfect! While we wouldn't characterize it like that, yes, we were indeed going for "STUPIDLY CLUNKY," as you say. No, I am sure Calgar won't be jealous, because his gauntlets will still shoot farther. And not look as stupid. Yes, the unit is yet again an anti-infantry shooty unit, but it has some clobberin' time hands too! No. Definitely no jump packs for these guys. We don't want those fists to be able to get in there too quickly and punch face. It's all about the synergy, you see."

Me: "All I can say is ...  seriously? Ya know, you just don't need a bazillion different units to deliver a basic Str 4 ranged attack to the face in a bazillion different ways."

GW: "Oh, but they are totally different! See? This one is range 8", this one is range 12", this one is range 18", this one is range 24", this one is range 30", and this one is range 36"! So, I do believe you are exaggerating just a bit!"

 
* Primaris Captain: Looks great. No complaints.
 
* Primaris Apothecary: Looks great.
 
* Primaris Librarian: Looks good overall, but I prefer more traditional robes instead of the sleeveless overcoat thing.
 
* Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought: looks good, though the legs are sort of weedy looking. Would have been nice to have a full panoply of weapon options.
 
* Primaris Repulsor Tank: Well, it does what it is named - it repulses me alright. I hate the look of the anti-grav plates. They dominate too much of the model, looking like there is some sort of "Imperial safety regulations stipulate that we have to build it this way so stupid people don't get sucked into the anti-grav field, or a vent, or whatever." going on with it. Loathe it. Then there is the weapon placement. "Yes, we actually were going for a 'just cram the weapons on there...somewhere' sort of look!" And a heavy stubber? On a Space Marine vehicle? Lame. It is like mixing standard and metric units on the same machine. That's how space shuttles blow up. leve the stubbers to the Imperial Guard. Space mariens are supposed to be to the most elite of forces armed with the best weapons...and they now use stubbers - 19th Century tech. Very grim darkness of the far future elite.

And, finally...
 
* Primaris Chaplain: Overcoat thing again. The chest ribs looks like a 5-yearl old sculpted them out of play-doh, and why-oh-why would somebody change the lower legs to ditch the iconic look and, not mimic, but copy Stormcast Eternals (the upper knee guard bit on the regular Primaris was too close as it is)? And then choose not to add extra detail to the model, as this is a *Chaplain*?  The model could have had four times the amount of decorative detail. No need to turn the iron halo into a literal halo either, and it is flimsy and will break. The crozius (I hesitate to even call it that) is an utter failure. A stick with a skull? Talk about lazy. It isn't even a proper looking power maul, let alone a proper "symbol of office." Great head on the model, but overall this model is a failure at just too many levels. GW is supposed to make top notch models, but when somebody makes models like those below, GW needs to step up their game just a lil' bit.


 
Yes, those models are each equipped with a proper crozius of arse-whoopin', and I'd like to think the model in the first pic is saying, "Hey! GW! Here is a list of the things you messed up on the Primaris Chaplain model!"
 
Final thoughts.  There really was no call for Primaris Space Marines, other than to have reason to get the already existing customer base to eventually re-buy their Space Marine armies at a larger scale. The unit types are surely not interesting enough to make me want to do this, and the units' armament, which is utterly focused, is pointless due to the fact that any model, in any unit, can shoot at whatever it wants to in the core rules, meaning the core rules don't even facilitate these units' capabilities in the way that they do units with mixed armaments. And then there is the whole "almost no vehicle we sell can transport these guys" rule. So, what is exactly so new and unique and appealing about these new units? Not much. I have some Primaris models (I'm trying to like them), but I will tell you it has been a long time since a group of new models (despite there being a Dark Angels model and upgrade sprue) have left me so uninspired to build them.
 
So now we need new bolter rules, because then all things bolter will be more awesomer.  Am I supposed to like things more now?

[Trevak Dal]

Totally agree with you on the space marine crisis suit guys, agree with you on all counts as far as asthetics and design.

 

I just hate the Centurion with a jetpack less than a space marine on a bike.

 

The aggrrssors remind me of Firebats from Starcraft and that domed...hood? On the metapod/Gravis armor reminded me of Starcraft marines. They look better with that cut off (though the marine battlesuits would be better with it being filled in I think)

 

I like the Primaris tacticals, and if the Reivers weren't wearing Capri pattern power armor I'd like them a lot more (golly gee are up with those pants and boots? They should have rapiers and puffy collars if they are going to have boots like that)

[zacret]

Im on the other side of the fence.

 

I love the look at feel of all the primaris units. Now i have recently come back top the hobby around 4 months ago but here is my 5 cents.

 

Intercessers: I started playing with these after the buff to bolters. Not so sure about them yet, they might be alright as a troop choice but offers less utility than scouts. More solid objective holders in own or mid zones.

 

Aggressors: I never play without atleast 3 of these and have fielded 6 in our 1000-1300 points games. Having played around 8 or so games with these, they have no let me down once. They put out alot of shots when they move (and they move quick for infantry 5 + advance all day every day baby) and a disgusting amount of shots when not moving . They might be AP0 but trust me, as long as they shot on thougness 4 or below, things die. They also are surprisingly versatile as they have thoughness 5 with powerfists with 2-3 attacks on base.

 

Hellblasters: Very solid unit and like aggressors i never leave home without them. They do so much damage and with a banner even more.

 

Repulsor: I recently started playing with the primaris gunboat and so far im liking what i see. HUGE amount of dakka and thoughness 8 with 16 wounds and fly keyword, whats not to like? They do not have a invul but you cant have everything. Im planning on adding another one when i paint up my first one. ALso its nice to have a place for my hellblasters so i can pop them out when/and where needed

 

I have yet to put togeather my intercepters, but i do own 6 of them. I have only heard good things about them no matter wehat loadout they have.

 

Reavers are one of the only units i cannot figure out what role they should do that other units can not do better. I have not bough any except for the 3 that can in the small starter pack.

 

Primaris HQ are kinda meh and i tend to wield normal space marine HQ as they are cheaper and have more options, so i can spent more points on units.

 

Lore: I love the fact that DA are not trusting them and im exited to see where they move with the lore. The DA story from Vigilus is awesome even tho its only a page or two.

 

All in all im very happy about the addition of the primaris and cant wait for next wave and i hope they will make ravenwing and deathwing to primaris in the future.

[aura_enchanted]

The issue I have is more with play then aesthetic. These guys would be great in a world where we were playing on the defense. Which is why I argue that konor should have been set up as a defense attack campaign for the imperium as then you can play to the strengths of the primaris who can't get around like other marines can and so the enemy coming to them would let them appea greater then they are.

 

The primaris are all really good at holding an objective or a tactically advantageous table position but they can't get there often because they get volleyed down because unlike normal marines they lack transport options. The astraeus, the thunderhawk (but not the storm eagle golly gee or mastadon double golly gee) and the repulsor are their only transport options (I think u can also cheeky it with a bunker fortification via the escape hatch upgrade but that's a technical application).

 

The primaris end up getting to that point shot to :cuss and it forces me to use stuff like distraction carnifex tactics which we suck at cause we're not orks or tyranids or chaos.

 

The other big issue with them as a whole is that beyond the repulsor and astraeus there are no heavy AT guns in the primaris at present and they suck at it when they do have some. They need that gap filled if they want to make it in this world.

[Interrogator Stobz]

What Shabbz said.

Rules, fluff and execution are clunky. The minis apart from the Mk10 dudes are also clunky.

I'm not rebuying my army, they work fine and can fit in their vehicles. :facepalm:

[shabbadoo]

And don't forgot that, now that Calgar has undergone the Primaris transformation, other Chapter's leadership will also do so.  Which leads us to the situation of when it comes time for Azrael to undergo the procedure, he will of course not survive.

 

Because Dark Angels.  Yes, I'm calling it. Who wants to get in on the pool early?

[jbaeza94]

And don't forgot that, now that Calgar has undergone the Primaris transformation, other Chapter's leadership will also do so.  Which leads us to the situation of when it comes time for Azrael to undergo the procedure, he will of course not survive.

 

Because Dark Angels.  Yes, I'm calling it. Who wants to get in on the pool early?

But Belial will? and will this usher in Primaris deathwing?

 

i really doubt they would kill azrael. that means at least 2 new characters. i will join the pool!

[G8Keeper]

Just to add, Primaris are nowhere near finished as a concept, there's a tonne of stuff still to come apparently.  

 

A note on Agressors.  I've seen them used absolutely expertly both in a Repulsor and out.  Double tapping with Azrael re-rolls to hit and a Lieutenant causes anything problems.  Once the enemy arrives at your lines they're also a pretty decent counter charge unit.  Centurions suffer from high points cost and can't be used by DA so... yeah.  If we could I'd be going all dakka as the Lascannon option is just too expensive.

 

Another thing to remember is you don't have to take one or the other, mix and match baby!

[aura_enchanted]

And don't forgot that, now that Calgar has undergone the Primaris transformation, other Chapter's leadership will also do so. Which leads us to the situation of when it comes time for Azrael to undergo the procedure, he will of course not survive.

 

Because Dark Angels. Yes, I'm calling it. Who wants to get in on the pool early?

nah he will live, they'll 86 his tactical short friend though and just make him wear the helmet and then maybe redo the rules for his awful heavenfall blade. In trials of azreal he cuts through several layers of emperor class warship with only one good arm and on the table he struggles to cut through power armor. There's a disconnect there. I'm. Thinking it goes up to power maul stats without the drawbacks of the maul. And maybe the combi plasma becomes a combi plasma auto bolt. Which would be pretty neat.

 

I'm thinking they'll also primaris Ezekiel mainly because his models ancient and still pewter (he might be the last pewter non sisters model actually in production). And so they might make a primaris Ezekiel, maybe make him a psychic beast machine with mastery 4 and maybe migrate him from bolt pistol to plasma pistol.

[shabbadoo]

Kind of getting back to the topic...

 

I don't know what to tell you, aura_enchanted.  I have tried. Really tired. When the recent larger battleforce type sets came out for Christmas, I seriously looked at getting both of them, as they come with slightly different units.  I decide that, if I were to get one it would be the Primaris Interdiction Force, as it comes with the Repulsor tank. Adding them to what I already have, I'd have a solid Primaris force, except for the non-Captain characters. But then I considered what my actual interest in them was. This is the Primaris stuff I own:

 

Dark Angels Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah

2 Dark Angels Primaris Upgrade Spues

1 Primaris Captain
2 Primaris Lieutenants

1 Primaris Ancient

10 Primaris Intercessors

3 Primaris Inceptors
5 Primaris Hellblasters

3 Primaris Aggressors

3 Easy-to-Build Primaris Aggressors

 

Most of them are from the starter set (I always buy the starter sets). So, I have 29 Primaris models. I've had them for more than a year. Shortly after getting them, I built Zakariah. To date, I have since built only one of the Aggressors.  In that time, I have cleaned and built 3 Killa Kans, a Deffdread, 12 Meganobz, 10 Lootas, two Mek Gunz, and a few other models for Orks. I have also built 40 Tau Infantry of various types and three Crisis suits. I have built three full Blood Bowl teams and two Necromunda gangs, and a couple dozen other models of various kinds. I have probably built close to 150 models in this time...and only two of them are Primaris models. I've looked at my Primaris models many times, but I keep putting them away and taking out something else to work on. And it is not because all of those other models were necessarily needed for a game, but simply because I wanted to build them.

 

If you are just wanting to add some different kinds of units to your Dark Angels force, then I would recommend getting just the starter set. There is a decent variety in there to build/try out in games, and the included units form up well as a fully separate Primaris Patrol Detachment that you can have fight "over there." You know, away from your trustworthy Dark Angels units. I do plan to do this myself. Eventually. Some day.

[FerociousBeast]

Primaris were the final nail in the coffin for me. I hate 'em, just hate 'em from top to bottom. (As all true Dark Angels should!) Lore, rules, models (with some very few exceptions) -- awful! They're a business decision, not a progression of the game or the lore. We wanted true scale tacticals, assaults, devastators, terminators, and beefier statlines. Instead we got something that invalidated decades-worth of miniature building, painting, and setting.

 

In utter disgust, I dropped 40k entirely, and am now in the Necromunda world. There's still a modicum of Blanchian grimdark there.

 

Pretty sure I won't be able to help you "like the new guys" 

[Knight Angels]

primaris are looking like modern scifi-combatants (halo, anthem) and i really think they are too little grimdark.

 

thanks god my local gaming group banned them altogether.

[jbaeza94]

Going as far as to outright ban primaris because you dont like them is ridiculous. i understand not liking the models, everyone has different tastes. i for one dont like the lore to be honest.  but to keep players from using models in their own codex to appease some old marine elitist goes against the spirit of the hobby. Id say thats almost as bad as the WAAC players who bring power lists to pick up friendly games. 

if you dont like them for whatever reason (lore, look, rules), fine. dont use them. but dont let your views dictate how others should or should not play. 

[Knight Angels]

well we actualy turned normal marines into primaris marines so no need to buy more stuff from gw:

 

alm marines on foot (except characters) pay 3pts and gain +1 W/A

bikes pay 1pt and gain +1 A

 

and we made some other changes to make marines great (not op) again

 

my veterans are now very viable with 2W and 3A each... nice!

[Berzul]

Maybe banning them could be going a bit far, but to every group its own in any case. I like the idea of just giving regular marines the primaris statline.

Personally, I plan on getting some primaris down the line, at some point in the distant future, but for another army. I like my dark angels in chibi size.