LRC + Inferno VV?

[zero88]

General consensus is that the LRC is more useful with CA price drops and the new Bolter rule. Inferno pistols are also more better now after CA. What are thoughts on 8 VVs rolling up in a LRC? I'm thinking 8 Power Fists, 3 Shields, and 5 Inferno Pistols? Turn one you drive up, potentially popping smoke and casting Might of Heroes. Turn 2 pile out, possibly deep strike a Watch Captain nearby for re rolls, and go to town. Trying to think of some new tactics for the Deathwatch besides Storm Bolters and Shields :/

[Mr4Minutes]

I say anything is worth a try, but, I’m not a fan of inferno pistols. The melta range is too short in my opinion.

[Lemondish]

Seems gimmicky, easy to predict, and even easier to counter. Even with the jump packs I think you'll have a real tough time actually getting them within melta range of their preferred targets with how easy it is to shut down the Crusader. Add in that you're giving up a round of shooting for a 264 point unit that can help clear those screens and it seems like the plan is a bit weak here.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ll stick with my shields here.

[shanewatts]

If you are advancing turn 1 and popping smoke with the LRC, aren't you effectively ignoring the benefit that the beta bolter rule gives the LRC? You are trying to get close to deliver a short ranged unit, so a good possibility you will be in rapid fire range already, and a possibility that something tags your LRC so it shoots zero times.

[IronDreddKnight]

I’m all for unlocking the secret of VV they have limited uses at the moment. I quite like the idea of inferno pistols on VV as they’re 12” movement compensates for the short range. The power fists add a nice one, two punch (hehe puns).

 

However I’m not sure the LR is justified if they’re carrying shields and assuming they hug cover.

 

A LR is just too high a price for an already expensive army IMO.

[Syward]

General consensus is that the LRC is more useful with CA price drops and the new Bolter rule. Inferno pistols are also more better now after CA. What are thoughts on 8 VVs rolling up in a LRC? I'm thinking 8 Power Fists, 3 Shields, and 5 Inferno Pistols? Turn one you drive up, potentially popping smoke and casting Might of Heroes. Turn 2 pile out, possibly deep strike a Watch Captain nearby for re rolls, and go to town. Trying to think of some new tactics for the Deathwatch besides Storm Bolters and Shields :/

 

Wouldn't it be better to use the Jump Packs on the VV and DS them into position? And then charge in and go H.A.M w/their PF and the pistols next shooting phase gaining the benefit of the extra D6? You could drop a Smash Capt. in with them to negate the -1 hit on the PF. 

 

I know the goal is to get them within 6" of their target before they charge so they can use their Inferno Pistols, but it seems like a safer option to DS them as you won't have to worry about a poor advance roll for your LRC move and/or enemy units charging the LRC to stop it from moving any closer. And you could get out just as many shots (using SIA even) for less points by using Veterans w/Storm Bolters. 

 

The LRC will give you a total of 40 shots (assuming you also take a SB) @ 24" for 266pts

 

A Veteran Squad w/Black Shield & Sgt & 3 veterans equipped with a total of 5 SB & 5 SS gives you 20 shots of SIA @ a max of 30" (Kraken) for 102pts

 

So for 204pts you get the same number of shots, all with AP-1 (yes, the LRC has 12 shots of Str 6, but it's AP-0) - you could take a 3rd veteran squad equipped this way and get another 20 shots (60 SIA shots total) for only 40pts more than the LRC. (3 Veterans squads with SS has a total of 15 wounds compared to the 16 on the LRC but have a better save potential w/the SS)

 

 

That being said though, there is always the "Rule of Cool" which trumps any efficiency and min/maxing.  And a LRC spitting bolter death & then vomiting a squad of smashy vets, definitely falls under the "Rule of Cool".  

 

 

I’m all for unlocking the secret of VV they have limited uses at the moment. I quite like the idea of inferno pistols on VV as they’re 12” movement compensates for the short range. The power fists add a nice one, two punch (hehe puns).

 

However I’m not sure the LR is justified if they’re carrying shields and assuming they hug cover.

 

A LR is just too high a price for an already expensive army IMO.

 

I've been considering trying a 5man VV squad equipped w/dual Plasma Pistols accompanied by a Chaplain w/JP & a Smash Capt w/JP. I think it could be a pretty devastating unit.

1. Deep Strike next to what ever you want dead
2. Overcharge 10 plasma pistol shots 
3. Charge and try to finish it of with 18 total CC attacks
   1. If target unit is dead, pick another target within 12" and start at step # 2
   2. If target unit is still alive overcharge remaining plasma again next shooting phase
   3. Try to finish it off with remaining CC attacks

Not sure how efficient that would be, but I think it definitely fits the "Rule of Cool" and on paper at least, seems like it could easily take out a high value/high wound target in a single turn.

[Syward]

Ooops - double post - can't figure out how to delete it.

[Lemondish]

(yes, the LRC has 12 shots of Str 6, but it's AP-0)

 

Assault cannons are AP-1 as well, just FYI

 

1. Deep Strike next to what ever you want dead
2. Overcharge 10 plasma pistol shots 
3. Charge and try to finish it of with 18 total CC attacks
   1. If target unit is dead, pick another target within 12" and start at step # 2
   2. If target unit is still alive overcharge remaining plasma again next shooting phase
   3. Try to finish it off with remaining CC attacks

Not sure how efficient that would be, but I think it definitely fits the "Rule of Cool" and on paper at least, seems like it could easily take out a high value/high wound target in a single turn.

 

Any reason why you'd pick VV instead of Inceptors here? Is it just a points issue? 

[Syward]

 

Assault cannons are AP-1 as well, just FYI

Oops, you're right, misread the datasheet.  

 

 

 

Any reason why you'd pick VV instead of Inceptors here? Is it just a points issue? 

 

Points cost is one reason. 177pts for 3x Inceptors w/Plasma (vs 135pts for 5x VV w/dual plasma pistols)

 

Plasma Exterminators are assault D3, so there's a chance that I only get as few as 6 shots (I roll like crud) or as many as 18 vs a guaranteed 10 plasma pistol shots with the VV with the same Str, AP & Dmg profiles. (I'm far more comfortable with guaranteed shots)

 

Another is I have to fallback with the Inceptors to shoot again which may not be possible due to terrain, other enemy units, etc. and I can't charge with the Inceptors to get back into CC the same turn if I fallback to shoot.  Where I get to stay in CC with the VV and still shoot. 

 

And 5x VV gives a total of 11 CC attacks vs only 7 for the Inceptors.

[Kallas]

Inceptors do have a greater range, bear in mind, which isn't insignificant. 18" vs 12" is a major difference, not least because it's outside of most 'intercept shooting' Stratagems (eg, Auspex Scan) but it also allows you to deploy them to control LOS from other things, particularly from major threats to them.

 

Dual PP Vanguard have to deep strike danger close, which is not always possible, either, if your opponent has good screening.

 

Another thing to bear in mind: Inceptors are 2W T5 each vs 1W T4 for the Vanguard. Each lost wound on the Vanguard is a 20% reduction in firepower, whereas it takes 100% more (assuming D1 and S6-7) shots to remove any Inceptor firepower. At three-man vs five-man, it works out favourably for the Inceptors: two wounds removes 33% of the Inceptors vs 40% of the Vanguard. Main advantage for Vanguard is that they can pack in some BP/SS dudes to tank high AP shots.

 

Inceptors aren't necessarily superior, but for a shooting unit I would CV heartily recommend a four-man unit, as that's a good amount of shooting without breaking the bank (points-wise).

[Syward]

@Kallas: Those are some really good points and some interesting things to think about. I think for me though, my goal with the VV unit is to get them into CC, and not so much as a shooting unit, but want to be able to take advantage of being able to shoot pistols while in CC. I think I'd use them to either stop something scary from shooting while having a good chance at maybe killing it and/or to try to nuke a high value/resilient target, like a Character and keep it occupied if I can't kill it in the one turn. (For shooting units, I'm primarily utilizing Intercessor/Hellblaster squads w/5 Intercessors, 4x Hellblasters & 1x Inceptor & I'll be expanding to at least one Intercessor/Aggressor squad)

 

 

Going back to the question from @zero88, I agree and think there is some hidden potential in the Vanguard Vets, just maybe not with the LRC. I wonder if using the Corvus to deliver a VV squad may be a be a viable choice? It has a much greater movement distance which could work better to get the VV squad to a position where then can disembark in the next movement phase within the 6" range to shoot before charging. It also has similar armament (doesn't have POTMS, but can take a Auspex to sort of make up for it) to the LRC. It's only 1 Hurricane Bolter, but still has the TLAC & has missiles & if positioned right, may get some secondary damage with the cluster launcher. And comes in 42pts cheaper than the LRC (w/Hurricane Bolter, Auspex & Blackstar Rockets). And it has the space to take a Smash Capt along with the VV squad like the LRC.

[Kallas]

LRC might have some value alongside VenDreads and/or Razorbacks to split the enemy's targeting priorities. I actually think that the regular Land Raider Phobos would be a better fit for Deathwatch, overall. It doesn't need to engage at close range, which is something that Deathwatch usually wants to do, and the Lascannons are very much needed - it's approximately as resilient as two Venerable Dreadnoughts with as many Lascannons (and a Twin Heavy Bolter vs melee/two Missile Launchers). It can't carry as many models, but Deathwatch are generally elite, even at their most dudespammy.

 

A pair of Land Raiders with some basic squads inside could take a central point quite well and bring enough mobility to redeploy. The main problem is the LR getting stuck in combat (somewhat lessened by having 10-20 Veterans hanging around to blast away hordes) and the Knight meta making people bring ten thousand and one Lascannons, although the LR is much easier to hide than a Knight, so there's that.

 

A Battalion with two characters, thirty Veterans, and two Land Raiders comes to about 1400/1500pts, so even at 1750 there's room to spare and shift things around. At 2000pts there's obviously more available points to saturate threats: for the extra 3-500pts one could pack in three Venerable Dreadnoughts to act as a firebase anchor for the Land Raiders to operate around. Would definitely be light on CP though.