Malevolence Character Rule Discussion

[b1soul]

Just wanted to start a thread dedicated to the Malevolence rules revealed so far, e.g. how effective they are, points cost, degree of fluffiness, etc.

 

I believe here's most if not all of what's been collected so far (by the forum members who attended the Weekender and were kind enough to share):

 

 

Jaghatai

Jaghatai Khan is both mounted unmounted. Mounted is tougher, not is cheaper and higher I. Comes with his sword and a spear and can pick the side he outflanks from. Like Fulgrim he has a 5++ against shooting which becomes a 3++ in combat.

 

Khan’s “thing” is that he always goes first in combat no matter what. It flat out says that Khan always attacks first in Assault, after Hammer of Wrath, but before Initiative step 10. If for some reason you go against another model with the same rule, then you go by Initiative trait...and Khan is I8 base (on foot) + his sword (something-Dao) has Duelist's Edge, thus making him I9 in a challenge. So the designer's comment about him always going first is pretty spot on. I will try to add more Khan rules when I can, unless they've already been covered. I glanced over his pages, but didn't get to digest/memorize. Over all he seems REALLY cool; lots of Scout + Outflank type buffs to the army which, combined with their Legion traits (+1 to roll for going first, +1 to Seize the Initiative, +1 to first Reserve roll for each turn) is having the WS shaping up to be VERY good IMO.

 

Sanguinius

-485pts

-Wings have special rules

-two weapon options: either/or can’t take both:

 

A. Blade Encarmine: S+1* AP2 Shred, Rampage

B. Spear of Telesto + Moonsilver Blade

—Spear: can be thrown as ranges weapon, has Armourbane

—Moonsilver Blade : has Duellists’s Edge and some other rule I couldn’t glean.

 

Sanguinius is very expensive. The Blade Encarmine is a boosted paragon blade. The Spear of Teleseto is +3S AP1, armourbane, instant death etc and can also be thrown for a +1S AP1, Armourbane, Instant Death shooting attack. Moonsilver is an AP3 sword with blind and bonuses vs daemons.

 

Sanguinius has a 4++ which he can reroll on the turn he charges. Counts as a jump unit and is WS9 with a shed of attacks.

 

Sanguinius

Ws 9

Bs ?

S 6

T 6

I 7

A 6

Ld 10

Sv 2+

He gets +1 initiative and attacks in the first round of combat.

All blood angels can use their jump packs in both movement and assault phase.

Armour gives him 4+ invun and can reroll failed invun saves when he charges.

Has either encarmine blade or spear of telesto.

Spear is s7 ap1 instant death, some other rules.

It can be thrown and then he draws another sword called moonsilver blade which is ap3 but gets bonuses against daemons.

Hammer of wrath attacks is at s10 ap2.

Can do a vector strike attack at s6 ap2.

When he deep strikes he doesn't scatter.

 

He is as good as russ and horus for WS. He has weapons with +1 or more strength boost and a rule that gives him a further strength boost when in first turn, so he's working off strength 8 or more. He has a bunch of attacks and can have rampage if he used the sword for even more. He has a base init of 7 which is 8 on the charge and is 9 if you go for the moonsilver blade (though that does mean he only has an AP2 weapon then). I am not totally sure but if day of revelations works with him, he would have an even better init.

 

Qin Xa

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/325506297585860608/541190772796424212/51626404_1206945082796853_9222883999720931328_n.png

 

Raldoron

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/325506297585860608/541190744367431681/51130345_1206945042796857_1973621082640351232_n.png

 

EDIT: I believe the other WS and BA characters are Solomon Khan [spelling] and a BA sergeant. Any info about these guys' rules (or additonal info about the rules of the much more famous characters above)?

[Blindhamster]

The BA guy has dual hand flames and a jump pack, artificer armour, a fancy power axe that isnt unwieldy (I think), and a rule where if he dies, on a 4+ he goes back into reserves instead of dying. I believe he has some other rules and gear that make him fit well with destroyers.

[drogg]

garro on facebook reported an extra bit in re: sanguinius, which i've emphasized below:

 

 

I got a good look at Sanguinius rule wise, he’s WS9 with the rest of his profile made of 6’s and 7’s. his wings count as a jump pack that can be used in both movement and assault in the same turn. his ‘sire’ rule confers this to the whole army. he does get to vector strike units he flys over like a FMC. He also confers+d3 wounds to combat resolution for nearby BA units. armour is 2+/4++, and he can take either the Blade Emcarbine Or the spear with quicksliver sword. the BE is better against hordes as it gives rampage and shred, while the spear is better against tougher foes. the spear can also be thrown once, with str7 ap1 or 2, fleshbane, armourbane, and instant death. once he’s thrown it, he draws the quicksliver sword which is a improved power sword (still ap3 though). Think he was about 485pts wise

 

edit: he also reported points costs on khan:  'he’s 380pts on foot, and the jetbike I think was 65pts extra.'

[Indefragable]

My notes have Khan at 395pts foot, +65 for jetbike.

 

Sire of the White Scars confers the always fight first thing + all WS in army get Scout.

 

Rest got cut off in my notes.

[Mango Polo]

I posted a detailed recap of the WS characters and units in the WS tactica thread from everything I could glean. There's some extra info the OP could add.

[Indefragable]

Because I geek out on weird things, I wanted to do a short analysis on the "Big Four" personal combatants (as positioned by ADB) in the HH setting.

 

We now have Sigismund, Sevatarion, Raldoron, and Abaddon.

 

Stats comparison

Hidden Content

 

Raldoran:

180pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Encarmine Warblade

Combi-flamer

Bolt pistol:       S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Encarmine Fury: +1 To Wound (but only if opposing units could already be wounded)

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Furious Charge:           +1S

Archein of Wisdom:    Raldoron may pick his Warlord trait from the Legiones Astartes Army List Warlord Traits table

            1: Bloody Handed: model + unit cause Fear

2: Master Tactician: After both sides have deployed but before which side goes first has been determined, this Warlord’s side may redeploy units within the parameters of the mission. Units in Reserve may be placed on the table and vice versa.

3: World Burner: nominate D3 units within Primary Detachment with the Blast or Template rule; they gain Shred

4: Paladin of Glory: Fearless and any units from same Legion in 6” are +1 to the Wounds score to see who won an Assault

            5: Void Walker: Adamantium Will + one nominated Infantry unit gains Deep Strike

6: Child of Terror: model and any unit he joins may re-roll To Wound rolls of 1 in close combat

 

The Encarmine warblade:       S+1 AP2 Melee, Master-crafted, Shred, Murderous Strike

            Murderous Strike: To Wound rolls of 6 have Instant Death

 

 

 

Sigismund

230pts

 

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          4          4          4          4          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Black Sword: S+2 AP2 Melee, Two-Handed

Mater-crafted Bolt pistol:        S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Imperial Fists: MUST issue/fight Challenges and re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when doing so.

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Eternal Warrior

Fearless

Adamantium Will

Dolorous Fighter: in a challenge, attacks have Instant Death and opponent’s successful invulnerable rolls must be re-rolled

Death’s Champion: +1I on the charge, re-roll charges and Sweeping Advance rolls

Precision Strike

Warlord:

Slayer of Kings: If Sigismund slays the enemy Warlord in a challenge, then his controlling player gains +1VP and all models in his army add +1 to Combat Resolution scores for the rest of the battle.

 

 

 

Sevatar

175pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          6          4          9          3+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Power Armor

Iron Halo

Frag and krak grenades

Master-Crafted Nostraman chainglaive:          S+1 AP3 Melee, Two-handed, Rending

Bolt pistol

Master of the Atramentar: NL Terminators/Term Command Squads do not scatter if placed within 6” of Sevatar when Deep Striking

Trophies of Judgement:           Fear

 

Night Lords

Master of the Legion

Dirty Legion:   Instant Death when fighting in a challenge

Repressed Psyker: ML1, but may never harness more than 2WC and is Ld7 for Perils of the Warp

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Master of Ambush: all friendly Outflanking units have the Acute Senses trait.

 

 

Ezekyle Abaddon

215pts

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

Justaeran Warplate:     2+/4++

Master-crafted Power Fist:      Sx2 AP2 Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

One of the following:

1. Combi-bolter   24” S4 AP- Rapid Fire, Twin-linked
2. Power sword:  S:User AP Melee

Grenade Harness:        8” S3 AP- Assault 2, Blast (3”), One Use Only

 

Sons of Horus

Master of the Legion

Fearless

Teleporter Assault: Abaddon + any Term unit he joins may Deep Strike and re-roll Deep Strike Mishap when they do so.

Marked by Dark Fates

Bulky

Independent Character

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Intimidating Presence: enemy units within 12” must use lowest Leadership value

 

Short (non-mathematical) analysis:

Hidden Content

 

Stats wise they are all pretty similar, with Raldoron getting an extra attack (totaling 5) from having bolt pistol+fancy sword. Both Sigismund and Sevatar's weapons are Two-handed and Abaddon's is as single specialist weapon so they miss out.

 

Sevatar goes first with I6, although Siggy is I6 on the charge and Ral could be I6 on the charge if taken in Day of Revelation. Abaddon is Unwieldy.

 

Defensively, Sev is the whipping boy with a 3+/4++ compared to the other three's 2+/4++. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Sigismund has that Previous Eternal Warrior to protect against Instant Death. Ral and Abby fall in between, though Abby has Fearless which can benefit in non-duel situations.

 

On attack Sigismund wins hands-down: he re-roll's 1's To Hit, wounds T4 on 2's, and every attack has Instant Death...though the kicker that puts him on top alone is the fact that opponent's must re-roll failed invuln saves. That's nuts. Sevatar maaaaay be second, me thinks, because of the more reliable I6 and the consistent Instant Death as well...the wounding on "only" 3's and only AP3 don't seem good, but there is Rending in there. Abaddon has Instant Death since his Power fist would double-out the others, while Ral is stuck with hoping for 6's To Wound, though with 5A and 2+ re-rollable (Shred) To Wounds, he could get some through. Don't know if Abby would survive to swing his First against these others, however. Both Abby and Ral have Master Crafting to re-roll a single 1 To Hit. Not as good as Sig, but still better than Sev.

 

Wildcards are Sev's ML1 Psychic stuff and <bemused smirk> Ral's combi-flamer, which gives a slight Overwatch advantage if he gets charged. Ral's lack of Precision Strike would also hurt if they were hidden in blobs of other units (which, seriously, why wouldn't they be?)

 

So long-story-short, Sigismund is the winner by a mile (he's a mini-Primarch), while Sevatar, Raldoron, and Abbadon all are reasonably comparable. Abby seems the weakest, to be honest, with not enough strengths to make up for weaknesses.

 

TL;DR: Raldoron's rules are deceptive in that despite their apparent simplicity, he can hang in there with the big boys though I don't know if he has quite enough to be truly competitive.

 

[Slips]

Point of order: Siggy forces rerolls of successful invulnerable saves.

 

There was this one time my Siggy came up against a friends Transfig'd Lorgar who had reroll failed saves. Came down to him rolling all the saves once, ignoring them entirely, then just rolling again cuz reroll failed and reroll successful due to being in a challenge with Siggy.

[Charlo]

Don't re-rolls like that just cancel eachother out?

[Slips]

Don't re-rolls like that just cancel eachother out?

Wasnt clear so we just rerolled everything /shrug

[b1soul]

@ Indefragable

 

Actually, I'm not sure if Raldoron counts as one of the "Big Four"

 

Savage Weapons:

[Alajos] suspected the number of Legiones Astartes warriors capable of besting him numbered fewer than twenty across all the Legions. Ezekyle Abaddon of the traitorous Sons was one; Jubal Khan of the Scars another; and Templar Sigismund of the Fists definitely another. As was Sevatar. His name joined the others...

 

First Heretic:

[sevatar's] was a name spread across the Imperium, almost as notable as that of Abaddon of the Sons of Horus, Eidolon of the Emperor’s Children, Raldoron of the Blood Angels… or even the primarchs themselves.

 

@ Mango Polo

 

Khan is WS7...golly gee...

[Slips]

WS7 is fine since hes already Literally the fastest CC fighter in the game since he goes after HoW but before initiative 10

[b1soul]

Genuinely curious...would he be broken at WS8?

[Blindhamster]

@ Indefragable

 

Actually, I'm not sure if Raldoron counts as one of the "Big Four"

 

Savage Weapons:

[Alajos] suspected the number of Legiones Astartes warriors capable of besting him numbered fewer than twenty across all the Legions. Ezekyle Abaddon of the traitorous Sons was one; Jubal Khan of the Scars another; and Templar Sigismund of the Fists definitely another. As was Sevatar. His name joined the others...

 

First Heretic:

[sevatar's] was a name spread across the Imperium, almost as notable as that of Abaddon of the Sons of Horus, Eidolon of the Emperor’s Children, Raldoron of the Blood Angels… or even the primarchs themselves.

 

@ Mango Polo

 

Khan is WS7...:cuss...

Raldoron has been noted a number of times as one of the greatest warriors in the legions, maybe not top 4, But they are rarely ordered when listed, definitely top 10 and specifically the best swordsman of the blood angels (the last bit is outright stated in fear to tread).

 

And rule wise he will lose to sigismund except for when raldoron is in a DoR list and got the charge, at which point it's probably 50:50. If sev doesn't get his divination power off, Its probably debatable that sev would win too. I think Abaddon would PROBABLY lose to all three.

 

There is the black shield swordsman who is ridiculously good too.

[lordhellblade]

Bit disappointed Raldoran does not come with more bells and whistles, I don't think Master-crafting his Combi flamer and Pistol would be out of the question.   I think i't would be nice if he could make termies and veteran tacticals troops    Quin Xa needs an actual gun and to make those Ebon Keshig or termies   troops  to make up his  point cost.  

[Indefragable]

I got to speak to both Anuj AND James Swallow about Raldoron. We all agreed that being the low-key leader with quiet confidence in a legion that is literally hot blooded was what made Ral so cool. The exception-that-proves-the-rule.

 

Jim liked the idea of him being the compass point of the Legion, the balance between angel and daemon...someone who can tap into the crazy just enough to get an edge and then ease off the gas pedal before driving off the cliff.

 

Anuj originally had ideas of him being in terminator armor and stuff but all the descriptions of him point out that he prefers understated, relatively simple wargear. The Everyman if leaders. Hence the rules we have.

 

I do think he’s subtler better than he seems, but still needs just a tad more to really say “ah! There we go!”

 

+Precision Strike

+Encarmine Fury interacts with Murderous Strike so ID pops on 5+

+Jump Pack option

+Re-roll failed Ld for his unit

[b1soul]

Don't get me wrong...I love Raldoron as a character concept (despite his lack of fleshing out), and he gets mentioned in First Heretic along with Abaddon and Eidolon.

 

In Savage Weapons, Alajos thinks there are - give or take - 20 dudes who have the ability to best him: in his own legion, Corswain and Astelan; in other legions, he name-drops Sevatar, Abaddon, Jubal Khan, and Sigismund. So there are around another fourteen dudes he merely didn't bother to name, which would likely include other elite individuals like Raldoron etc.

 

So the Big Four (in Savage Weapons) would just be the guys who get name-dropped, not necessarily the best. Well...Sig is the best, but the others we are probably very hard to rank.

[Blindhamster]

Don't get me wrong...I love Raldoron as a character concept (despite his lack of fleshing out), and he gets mentioned in First Heretic along with Abaddon and Eidolon.

 

 

In Savage Weapons, Alajos thinks there are - give or take - 20 dudes who have the ability to best him: in his own legion, Corswain and Astelan; in other legions, he name-drops Sevatar, Abaddon, Jubal Khan, and Sigismund. So there are around another fourteen dudes he merely didn't bother to name, which would likely include other elite individuals like Raldoron etc.

 

So the Big Four (in Savage Weapons) would just be the guys who get name-dropped, not necessarily the best. Well...Sig is the best, but the others we are probably very hard to rank.

In savage weapons one list is made, but there have been other points too, we don't know that the list in savage weapons is the top 4, we just know they're the ones alajos happens to name drop as you say.

 

 

 

He also gets name dropped alongside sigismund and sevatar in another book, but without going through them all, I can't think which one.

 

Rule wise, ral is probably in the big 4 right now, but that's because jubal, corswain etc don't have rules yet. It does stand to reason that the greatest swordsman of a primary close combat legion is going to be "up there". I imagine corswain is going to edge out someone from the top 4 for rules when he appears, and if abaddon loses unwieldy his place in the current top 4 would likely change too.

[b1soul]

Someone on Reddit (so take with a big grain of salt) thought that Qin Xa more likely than not beats Raldoron on the tabletop based on Qin's +3 attack and 4 wounds. Not sure how accurate that is. If true, then I think the top tabletop Astartes are...

 

Sigismund

 

In no particular order...

Nemean Reaver

Sevatar

Raldoron

Qin Xa

Abaddon

...and I think Eidolon should belong here too (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Khârn's rules seem to be rather lacking

[Blindhamster]

so, Qin Xa and Raldoron are an interesting matchup.

Qin Xa either strikes first, simultaneously (if Ral charged and was in a DoR list) or last (using the split the mountain).

Qin Xa hits Raldoron on 4s, Raldoron hits Qin Xa on 3s. They both get to reroll a single miss due to master crafted.

They both have 5 attacks base (raldoron has 4 but has 2 ccw). Qin Xa does have counter attack so is always working off 6 attacks in first round.

Qin Xa either wounds Ral on 3s or he wounds Ral on 2s but strikes last.
Ral wounds Qin Xa on 2s, and rerolls 1s. If Ral rolls a 6 and Qin Xa fails his save, Qin Xa dies.

They both have 4++ saves and dont get their normal save.

Ral can also pick a warlord trait, i assume one of them will be useful but cant say i've looked recently.

Qin Xa has 1 more wound than Ral, so if Ral doesnt roll a 6 to wound, Qin Xa might edge him out on sheer durability.


I think a lot comes down to if Ral charged, if Qin Xa charged, he can potentially cause instant death by going last and essentially having a power fist. If Ral charged, Qin Xa has no way to instant death him, and as such is highly unlikely to take him out in a round of combat (if Qin Xa opts to go simultaneously, he only wounds on 3s, and only hits with half his attacks and Ral saves half of the wounds, so loses 1 wound). In that first round for Ral, he should hit 4 times rather than 3, and is likely to wound with them all (wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s). so Qin Xa loses 2 wounds. And with 4 hits there is a fair chance of a 6 in there too.

But yeah, Nemean Reaver is probably the best after Sigi, because of eternal warrior and his ability todebuff other peoples WS.

[b1soul]

A bit off topic but how Nemean fare against Sev?

[Blindhamster]

A bit off topic but how Nemean fare against Sev?

Pretty sure he'd win. Sev would struggle with Nemeans armour, Sev cannot instant death him, Sev has fewer wounds. Sev would no longer be WS7. Might be close, but i think Nemean will generally beat most others due to him having eternal warrior and doing a good job of debuffing.

[b1soul]

The Nemean Reaver...a true son of the Lion...or is he???

[Sulemain]

Reading those rules, does the absence of a jump pack mean Raldoron doesn't work as part of the Day of Revelations ROW?

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Reading those rules, does the absence of a jump pack mean Raldoron doesn't work as part of the Day of Revelations ROW?

He can still be taken in it. He just can’t be the forces compulsory HQ.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Math wise, sevetar gets his power off on average if there's no enemy psykers, which boosts him significantly. Sigi still smokes him, but his 75% chance to pass saves let's him fish for those rends or just sneak a failed armour save through. A straight up 1v1 is also better, since you can reroll more failed to wound rolls to get rends as opposed to wounding on 2s.

 

After the master of ambush buffs, I'd honestly say he's too cheap now.