Malevolence Character Rule Discussion

[Indefragable]

I would really like to see Ral get the option for a Jump Pack and also a buff to BA Ld and Deep Strike units...

 

 

...the more I contemplate what we know about the IX Legion in 30k, the more genuinely shocked I am that there's no buffs to Deep Striking/Scatter whatsoever in the Legion outside of the unit Sangy is directly attached to. It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

[Purge the Daemon]

I would really like to see Ral get the option for a Jump Pack and also a buff to BA Ld and Deep Strike units...

 

 

...the more I contemplate what we know about the IX Legion in 30k, the more genuinely shocked I am that there's no buffs to Deep Striking/Scatter whatsoever in the Legion outside of the unit Sangy is directly attached to. It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

I mean turn 1 deep strike and cover saves are pretty big buffs in day of revelations + 2 unique jump pack units + sang no scatter squad + use jump packs in assault and movement with sanguinius

 

Like that's a lot of buffs to jump packs way more than raven guard or night lords who are also jump pack legions.

[Indefragable]

 

I would really like to see Ral get the option for a Jump Pack and also a buff to BA Ld and Deep Strike units...

 

 

...the more I contemplate what we know about the IX Legion in 30k, the more genuinely shocked I am that there's no buffs to Deep Striking/Scatter whatsoever in the Legion outside of the unit Sangy is directly attached to. It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

I mean turn 1 deep strike and cover saves are pretty big buffs in day of revelations + 2 unique jump pack units + sang no scatter squad + use jump packs in assault and movement with sanguinius

 

Like that's a lot of buffs to jump packs way more than raven guard or night lords who are also jump pack legions.

But that’s one single build.

 

Imagine if Talent for Murder only worked for NL in a single RoW if Curze was also present as well.

 

I’m looking for things to be spread out a bit more; modular.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

Well the night fighting bonus only really gets taken advantage of the most;

 

1. In a rite of war

2. With curze

 

So yea

[Charlo]

 

 

I would really like to see Ral get the option for a Jump Pack and also a buff to BA Ld and Deep Strike units...

 

 

...the more I contemplate what we know about the IX Legion in 30k, the more genuinely shocked I am that there's no buffs to Deep Striking/Scatter whatsoever in the Legion outside of the unit Sangy is directly attached to. It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

I mean turn 1 deep strike and cover saves are pretty big buffs in day of revelations + 2 unique jump pack units + sang no scatter squad + use jump packs in assault and movement with sanguinius

 

Like that's a lot of buffs to jump packs way more than raven guard or night lords who are also jump pack legions.

But that’s one single build.

 

Imagine if Talent for Murder only worked for NL in a single RoW if Curze was also present as well.

 

I’m looking for things to be spread out a bit more; modular.

 

I mean, I see what you're getting at but DoR is incredibly powerful. You can't have your cake and eat it too (generally) in Heresy, you have to choose a rite if you want the specific bonuses above normal capabilities and go hard on it. It's how the legions operated, they had all the tools for the job and would pick the best and utterly crush the enemy with that.

 

DoR is the rite of war that represents the BA shock & awe-ing a planet enmasse with deep strike, so you won't find any alternatives. Sangy having no scatter is more an insurance policy so your 500pt model and bodyguard doesn't get borked by the scatter dice.

 

However, if you are looking for other sources of no scatter, the Damocles Command Rhino has a large bubble of "No Scatter on Deep Strike" that could be exploited.

[Purge the Daemon]

A lot of rows are really integral to running a legion in a specific manner and these rights tend to give a lot of buffs. You still get buffs with just sanguinius like double usage of jump packs. You also still get assault buffs always.

 

FW design intent is to show all the legions are good at everything even if they tend to specialize in the novels or our own fluff. Row are very important to the legions design as many totally change how you play your army I.e. Chogorian bortherhood or DoR.

 

White scars arent an entirely biker legion so while they have army wide skilled rider all the other bike stuff is tied to the row and their primarch same with blood Angel's.

[Indefragable]

 

It's like saying Night Lords have no buffs to Night Fighting outside of attached Curze to a unit, or Salamanders are only good with flamers if you attach Vulk.

Well the night fighting bonus only really gets taken advantage of the most;

 

1. In a rite of war

2. With curze

 

So yea

 

 

...but NL get Night Vision default...and then RoW + Curze take it to the next level. That's my point...it's modular and can be amazing when buffed up yet also provides something on it's own without any additional components.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Night vision is 50/50 to work for one turn, ignoring that rhinos provided the same benefit. It's pretty unessential at the end of the day.

 

Night lords themes are fear and night, I guess. You need to use terror assault or bring in the primarch to have either be more than a once in a while. None of their 3 characters do anything to push the theme

 

Blood angels themes are red thirst and being angelic, which mainly is jump packs. You can already go jump pack heavy through the list building and can further buff through rites of war and the primarch.

 

They're the same. Some legions have more direct synergy and some have less. Raven guard have a rite and character that play off their themes of fast hitting assassination; Iron warriors get nothing that play off their mass attrition, trench grinding.

[Mazryonh]

Because I geek out on weird things, I wanted to do a short analysis on the "Big Four" personal combatants (as positioned by ADB) in the HH setting.

 

We now have Sigismund, Sevatarion, Raldoron, and Abaddon.

 

Stats comparison

Hidden Content

 

Raldoran:

180pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Encarmine Warblade

Combi-flamer

Bolt pistol:       S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Encarmine Fury: +1 To Wound (but only if opposing units could already be wounded)

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Furious Charge:           +1S

Archein of Wisdom:    Raldoron may pick his Warlord trait from the Legiones Astartes Army List Warlord Traits table

            1: Bloody Handed: model + unit cause Fear

2: Master Tactician: After both sides have deployed but before which side goes first has been determined, this Warlord’s side may redeploy units within the parameters of the mission. Units in Reserve may be placed on the table and vice versa.

3: World Burner: nominate D3 units within Primary Detachment with the Blast or Template rule; they gain Shred

4: Paladin of Glory: Fearless and any units from same Legion in 6” are +1 to the Wounds score to see who won an Assault

            5: Void Walker: Adamantium Will + one nominated Infantry unit gains Deep Strike

6: Child of Terror: model and any unit he joins may re-roll To Wound rolls of 1 in close combat

 

The Encarmine warblade:       S+1 AP2 Melee, Master-crafted, Shred, Murderous Strike

            Murderous Strike: To Wound rolls of 6 have Instant Death

 

 

 

Sigismund

230pts

 

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          4          4          4          4          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Black Sword: S+2 AP2 Melee, Two-Handed

Mater-crafted Bolt pistol:        S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Imperial Fists: MUST issue/fight Challenges and re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when doing so.

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Eternal Warrior

Fearless

Adamantium Will

Dolorous Fighter: in a challenge, attacks have Instant Death and opponent’s successful invulnerable rolls must be re-rolled

Death’s Champion: +1I on the charge, re-roll charges and Sweeping Advance rolls

Precision Strike

Warlord:

Slayer of Kings: If Sigismund slays the enemy Warlord in a challenge, then his controlling player gains +1VP and all models in his army add +1 to Combat Resolution scores for the rest of the battle.

 

 

 

Sevatar

175pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          6          4          9          3+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Power Armor

Iron Halo

Frag and krak grenades

Master-Crafted Nostraman chainglaive:          S+1 AP3 Melee, Two-handed, Rending

Bolt pistol

Master of the Atramentar: NL Terminators/Term Command Squads do not scatter if placed within 6” of Sevatar when Deep Striking

Trophies of Judgement:           Fear

 

Night Lords

Master of the Legion

Dirty Legion:   Instant Death when fighting in a challenge

Repressed Psyker: ML1, but may never harness more than 2WC and is Ld7 for Perils of the Warp

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Master of Ambush: all friendly Outflanking units have the Acute Senses trait.

 

 

Ezekyle Abaddon

215pts

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

Justaeran Warplate:     2+/4++

Master-crafted Power Fist:      Sx2 AP2 Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

One of the following:

1. Combi-bolter   24” S4 AP- Rapid Fire, Twin-linked
2. Power sword:  S:User AP Melee

Grenade Harness:        8” S3 AP- Assault 2, Blast (3”), One Use Only

 

Sons of Horus

Master of the Legion

Fearless

Teleporter Assault: Abaddon + any Term unit he joins may Deep Strike and re-roll Deep Strike Mishap when they do so.

Marked by Dark Fates

Bulky

Independent Character

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Intimidating Presence: enemy units within 12” must use lowest Leadership value

 

Short (non-mathematical) analysis:

Hidden Content

 

Stats wise they are all pretty similar, with Raldoron getting an extra attack (totaling 5) from having bolt pistol+fancy sword. Both Sigismund and Sevatar's weapons are Two-handed and Abaddon's is as single specialist weapon so they miss out.

 

Sevatar goes first with I6, although Siggy is I6 on the charge and Ral could be I6 on the charge if taken in Day of Revelation. Abaddon is Unwieldy.

 

Defensively, Sev is the whipping boy with a 3+/4++ compared to the other three's 2+/4++. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Sigismund has that Previous Eternal Warrior to protect against Instant Death. Ral and Abby fall in between, though Abby has Fearless which can benefit in non-duel situations.

 

On attack Sigismund wins hands-down: he re-roll's 1's To Hit, wounds T4 on 2's, and every attack has Instant Death...though the kicker that puts him on top alone is the fact that opponent's must re-roll failed invuln saves. That's nuts. Sevatar maaaaay be second, me thinks, because of the more reliable I6 and the consistent Instant Death as well...the wounding on "only" 3's and only AP3 don't seem good, but there is Rending in there. Abaddon has Instant Death since his Power fist would double-out the others, while Ral is stuck with hoping for 6's To Wound, though with 5A and 2+ re-rollable (Shred) To Wounds, he could get some through. Don't know if Abby would survive to swing his First against these others, however. Both Abby and Ral have Master Crafting to re-roll a single 1 To Hit. Not as good as Sig, but still better than Sev.

 

Wildcards are Sev's ML1 Psychic stuff and <bemused smirk> Ral's combi-flamer, which gives a slight Overwatch advantage if he gets charged. Ral's lack of Precision Strike would also hurt if they were hidden in blobs of other units (which, seriously, why wouldn't they be?)

 

So long-story-short, Sigismund is the winner by a mile (he's a mini-Primarch), while Sevatar, Raldoron, and Abbadon all are reasonably comparable. Abby seems the weakest, to be honest, with not enough strengths to make up for weaknesses.

 

TL;DR: Raldoron's rules are deceptive in that despite their apparent simplicity, he can hang in there with the big boys though I don't know if he has quite enough to be truly competitive.

 

 

So Abaddon is the worst of the "big four"? I think it's past time he was updated to make him more competitive. How about better weapons for him and Eternal Warrior at least?

[Gorgoff]

I guess he should be cheaper and have S5 and 4 wounds plus Eternal Warrior. That'd show his bulk and toughness. And his claw could have more oomph.

[rendingon1+]

Not sure about super buffs for abaddon but eternal warrior for him and Khârn should be ok. I'm not a fan of "eternal warrior + strike at initiative with instant death" excalation.

 

As for Raldoron he's quite "reasonably"priced for being one of the top duelists AND choosing his warlord trait which is super powerfull.

[Charlo]

Abaddon is pretty decent. The lack of AP2 at initiative is annoying but he does get WS7, Fearless, Deep Strike for himself and a unit, Master-crafted on his weapon & Precision strikes. Sure instant death sucks but it's not the end of the world.

[Indefragable]

IMO, I think Abaddon should strike at Initiative with his Power Fist (on the turn he charges?) Something like that. Simple, yet makes him stand out from the crowd and voila! puts him on a place as one of the most feared non-Primarch dudes in the setting.

 

I also would like to see all of the heavy hitters get Eternal-Warrior-lite or something (so ID = lose 2 wounds instead of just 1, but not Instant Death).

[Mazryonh]

IMO, I think Abaddon should strike at Initiative with his Power Fist (on the turn he charges?) Something like that. Simple, yet makes him stand out from the crowd and voila! puts him on a place as one of the most feared non-Primarch dudes in the setting.

 

I also would like to see all of the heavy hitters get Eternal-Warrior-lite or something (so ID = lose 2 wounds instead of just 1, but not Instant Death).

 

Alexis Polux already has that "strike with his Power Fist at initiative on the charge" ability. At a minimum it would probably help better if Abaddon got access to a Paragon Blade and Plasma Blaster rather than the bog-standard power sword and combi-bolter he can use. But I do agree Abaddon needs a signature ability to make himself more unique and useful.

[Charlo]

A paragon blade would probably sort out Abaddon.

[Mazryonh]

A paragon blade would probably sort out Abaddon.

 

Not to mention you wouldn't need to convert anything, just say the Power Sword the model comes with is now a Paragon Blade.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Paragon blade would be a nice fix, since it'd also give him a bonus attack. That or eternal warrior.

[Gorgoff]

Paragon blade would be a nice fix, since it'd also give him a bonus attack. That or eternal warrior.

Or maybe Sword plus Claw should count as some special weapon similar to Geigor, who has by the way a very stupid name.