Best ways to deal with heavy armor in our Codex

[Berzul]

Hey guys.

 

So, I've been having a lot of discussions with some people in my gaming group about how to deal with Knights, heavy vehicles, triple riptides, and other such nasty enemies in competitive lists.

 

I've been trying to figure out how our codex best deals with such things in a competitive enviroment. As, I remember a while back, when I had my first fight against an Imperial Knight list. I showed up with my standard somehwat varied list of tacticals, devastators, dreadnoughts, with some bikes for support... and got CRUSHED in like two and a half turns, without dealing so much as a wound on my enemies.

 

My question since, and specially now that I am trying to have a go at more competitive stuff (with a collection that is in no ways ready for it, rest assured), has been: If I was to face that list again, what should I do different?

 

What are your thoughts on how to balance a good list, that makes use of what we do best (RW), with something that can actually punch through a knight?

[aura_enchanted]

The only way we can conceivably break a knight is with a knight of our own. Last edition I would have had a few resources to suggest how to handle big vehicles at least but the modern beasty is another animal and you need a knight for it, possibly even two in the case of multi storm surge as an example. And by this I mean dispatching the infernal thing in a timeframe that's somewhat acceptable before its had tilted the game.

 

They have become a weight class unto themselves and tearing them down is simply not possible for anyone of an inferior breed unless their name is lion el Johnson

[Berzul]

Oh... :(

[Interrogator Stobz]

Relic Falchion?

 

But then you're not going to have any meaningful points left due to it's price hike in CA1.

[Hantheman]

Yeah knights have just shifted the game so much. I don't think it's good but c'est la vie.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Thunderhawk? As long as they don't have Magnus you'll be ok.

 

But even less meaningful army.

[oldmanlee]

As others have said a knight of your own. It's a shame that knights have made so many units just pointless to take

[aura_enchanted]

As others have said a knight of your own. It's a shame that knights have made so many units just pointless to take

Thunderhawk? As long as they don't have Magnus you'll be ok.

But even less meaningful army.

if they ever give hellstorm missiles back to the fortress of redemption you could do that and maybe kill it in a decent timeframe

[Berzul]

So, would you suggest other alternatives to facing Imperial Knights? 'Cause I have NONE of that! Hahahaha -_-

[RevenantDA]

I face this same problem Berzul, and am curious what units people use to tackle the big boys that aren't big boys themselves.  I have a few games in my escalation league coming up where I know I will face Knights.  I've built a list using 5 inceptors dropping in with a Master and LT with jump packs.  (I have no Primaris other than the Inceptors...).  I run a RW list primarily, and this was as far as I was willing to push using models without bikes (other than my battalion scouts).  My alternative list adds 2 HB/AC speeders with a HB/TML speeder in place of the Inceptors.  I run Sammy and Talonmaster with a Dark Shroud, 6BK's, 2 bike squads of 5 with 2 Melta guns each in my standard list, so hoping the extra volume will be enough to get him down to a lower stat line.  I also run a Libby on a bike for aversion.  Maybe my 2 Dark Talons with their vortex cannons and hurricanes can plink some wounds off too.  Though the hurricanes are usually used on infantry first that aren't in cover.

 

Alternatives would be the Hellblasters in force with Azrael, overcharging and WotDA the heck out of them!!  Volumes of 3 dmg weapons trying to break through that Invul Save!!

[Berzul]

I planned a list the other day that brough, among other things:

Azrael

2 Squads of 5 Marines with Lascannons

1 Squad of Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers

2 Razorbacks with Twin Lascannons

1 Predator with 4 Lascannons

3 Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas.

 

And still my gaming group told me it would not be nearly enough t face a knights list.

 

And i honestly had nothing else to throw in there, so I was left in dismay at the state of the meta.

[Interrogator Stobz]

To be fair, three LC Dev squads cost about the same as a Crusader and can (with buffs) half kill it in a turn, it can kill about 7-8 MEQ in return. So if you get to go first there is a chance of killing it in 2-3 turns.

(Ballpark figures only)

[oldmanlee]

The other thing you could try is depending on what missions you are playing ie chapter approved or itc is just ignore them if they don't have infantry support its very tough for them to win objective games

[AdmirableGoal]

I face this same problem Berzul, and am curious what units people use to tackle the big boys that aren't big boys themselves.  I have a few games in my escalation league coming up where I know I will face Knights.  I've built a list using 5 inceptors dropping in with a Master and LT with jump packs.  (I have no Primaris other than the Inceptors...).  I run a RW list primarily, and this was as far as I was willing to push using models without bikes (other than my battalion scouts).  My alternative list adds 2 HB/AC speeders with a HB/TML speeder in place of the Inceptors.  I run Sammy and Talonmaster with a Dark Shroud, 6BK's, 2 bike squads of 5 with 2 Melta guns each in my standard list, so hoping the extra volume will be enough to get him down to a lower stat line.  I also run a Libby on a bike for aversion.  Maybe my 2 Dark Talons with their vortex cannons and hurricanes can plink some wounds off too.  Though the hurricanes are usually used on infantry first that aren't in cover.

 

Alternatives would be the Hellblasters in force with Azrael, overcharging and WotDA the heck out of them!!  Volumes of 3 dmg weapons trying to break through that Invul Save!!

 

 

 

First of all, I feel your pain.  I’m really sorry.  Fighting against knights is a deeply frustrating experience, in general, but especially for a Space Marine army.  I don’t know if we’re the worst against them, but we are certainly low on the scale (except blood angels, sometimes, with the right support, etc).  I learned a lot of nasty, unpleasant lessons about how to best deal with knights last year.  This is all before chapter approved and vigilus, so some of the below will be easier now, especially for the Ravenwing.

 

The above advice (volume of plasma fire) is the only thing that's really worked for me.  It doesn’t kill a knight, but it can hurt it enough to bracket it (assuming they aren’t using the house trait that lets them ignore being bracketed). And actually make it possible to take the thing down before it kills enough of your stuff to functionally win the game.  Volume of fire is the only way to beat them outside of close combat (which we functionally can't do in a way that's at all effective), and Weapons of the Dark Age means that our massed, 3 damage plasma is the best bet because it's so reliable.  The same trick works with a mob of black knights.  The trick with both is getting them into range.   The other way there is with plasma inceptors.   I (thankfully) haven't had to deal with one since chapter approved and vigilus dropped.   Black Knights would be able to hit on 2's after Sammael uses signal the attack, and could roll 1's so without overheating.  

 

All three sources of plasma death bombs have weaknesses.

 

1. All of them need character and other kinds of support, some more than others.  It's usually the expensive kind. 

 

First of all, all of them need a darkshroud right next to them.

 

For the Hellblaster blob, they need Azrael, a lieutenant, and a company ancient.  An apothecary can also help.  

 

The Ravenwing Black Knight bomb needs Sammael and a Talonmaster.  I haven't found the Apothecary to be worth his enormous expense, unfortunately.

 

The Inceptors need to drop with a Jump master, bare minimum, and you want a lieutenant, too, I think.

 

2. They all have issues with range.  

 

The hellblasters can shoot from 30, but really need to get to rapid fire to get enough volume of fire to put some hurt on it.  They have to footslog it, and because of this I eventually decided that one squad of hellblasters isn't really enough, because enough of one will die getting to range to lose the massed shots necessary.  Even with Azrael and a darkshroud, they're still T4.

 

The Black Knights have the standard Black Knight issue: they move 20' (I am assuming you are using the speed of the raven on them, which you definitely should if you bring a giant 8-10 bike squad) and can only shoot 18'.  You're going to have trouble getting them into range consistently before they all die, especially with good screening by your opponent.  They're T5, so are a little more sturdy than hellblasters, but they're still pretty flimsy.  

 

The inceptors can deep strike, which is awesome for protecting them.  The 18 inch range, however, means that they might not actually be able to get within shooting range on turn 2 when they drop if the opponent still has enough deepstrike screening left on the board.  Do not plan to have any inceptors left alive after one turn of your opponent shooting at them.  This is how just goes with inceptors, generally, but especially DA plasma inceptors.  They're 6, T5 2 wound models that can pour out damage.  They're easy to kill and can ruin your opponent's whole army, focus firing them to oblivion is a fairly simple no brainer.  I have had some luck kitting out the master who drops in with them as a smash captain, and sometimes it works if he can get in to finish the knight off.  Not totally reliable, though, and it really helps to have someone eat the overwatch.  9” charges aren’t great.

 

If I had to guess, the best bet is going to be Ravenwing.  They got so much stronger with the Vigilus Detachment, and they can still get up the board pretty well.  Plus, they have backup from Sammael and a Talonmaster, plus whatever else you bring.  I actually use a bunch of anti-tank landspeeders, but there are other options.  The two HQs can actually put some hurt on a knight in CC if you give the talonmaster the Monster Slayer of Caliban.  Not enough to do a ton, but they might be able to finish one off. Just make sure you use either the eye of the unseen or Mind Worm on the thing somehow.  You don’t want to chance the knight interrupting combat against those two. 

 

The other thing to help is to whittle them down a little with mortal wound output.  The easiest is a Devastator squad using hellfire shells, the signum, and the cherub gets your 2d3 mortal wounds that hit on 2s and reroll their own 1s from the chapter tactic.  Smite is also good here if you can make sure the knight is the closest model, but that’s tricky.

 

The other approach (and combining both approaches is probably best) is to reduce their effectiveness.  I almost always run a jump pack librarian to keep up with my ravenwing blob.  Knights are pretty vulnerable to powers like Aversion and Mind Wipe, which are both what I usually take anyway. 

 

Last year I was running The Lion and the Wolf a lot, always with a jump Rune Priest.  Tempest’s Wrath is just as great as Aversion, as it’s the same power.  Living Lightning is great all around, and helps with mortal wound output.  Additionally, the +1 leadership buff from the duel makes it easier to get mind wipe off.

 

If you can get both powers off, you’ve put the knight at 5+ BS/WS, and 6+ BS at anything in the darkshroud bubble. 

 

 

The way that you’re “supposed” to be able to kill a knight is in melee.  Deathwing Knights are pretty strong at this, but the 9” charge makes them far too unreliable for this to work.  If they fail the charge and the reroll (which will happen most of the time), the knight can usually just walk out of effective charge range, and you’re left with 180ish points of deadweight that didn’t show up until turn 2 and may not do anything until turn 3 or 4, if at all. 

 

The real answer is that knights are really frustrating to play against for Space Marines (or for anyone, really).  But DA do have a few tricks that most marines don’t, so the best bet is to try to maximize them as best you can. 

 

Other advice I’d add for things that could work post-Vigilus and CA:

 

• I don’t know what kind of missions you’re playing, but some of the new eternal war missions from chapter approved could actually be pretty bad for knights.
• I don’t know how cheesy the lists your opponents run are, but Sammael and the Talonmaster are actually FANTASTIC at shredding (more or less) an entire guard squad in one round of shooting.  Keep him from getting those VPs as best you can and try to win on points.

 

I hope some of this helped.  Good luck, and let us know if any of this works, or if you find an idea we haven’t thought of it.  God knows I could use some help beating these things.

[aura_enchanted]

I run a knight of my own, last edition I would run gerantius the ghost knight. This year I'm doing a standard knight errant till something better arrives. The thermal cannon boosts my AT a little and the reaper chainsword is the ultimate in knight killing technology. Most at using the full Dakka knights who are in effect terrible at melee. If they get closed on by another knight even a damaged one with a chainsword will end them. In a perfect world I'd use a knight lancer his move speed and shield means he can close better and slam them apart with the mega fist.

 

The problem that arrives is if he's using a mixed arms knight as well in which case i usually also turn all my AT on it to try and tip the scales. Before the codecies were a thing this served me well and last edition that knight saved me from utter ruin. My local tables are populated by old, seasoned, very wealthy players with nothing but time to practice and money to spend. They got better so I had to think bigger. And without him I was probably never winning any matches during the gathering storm store campaign.

 

I hold true to the idea that keeping an enemy guessing and being unconventional can win wars and thus far it's worked pretty well. I remember one of my first 6th edition games I fielded what was functionally mechanized DA and 3 different opponents came loaded for anti bike warfare instead. One guardsmen spent an entire game body blocking his own sentinels he took as an after though because he had no other AT and 9 tanks to kill and had come full blobsman creed

 

And a tau player made the same mistake, except he walked in on a land raider with knights hit team and spent turn 3-6 taking cheeky potshots from behind a mountain with a banged up crisis suit team and a commander cause everything else was designed to kill bikes.

 

Don't do what people expect you to do, or If you are find unconventional spins. Sometimes surprise is all you need to flip a table

[Orkinstein]

My answer to invulnerable save is mortal wounds.

 

Another crazy choice is the sniper scout. 40 sniper scouts are 520 points and 3 lascannon dev squads with Armorium Cherub are 510.

40 scouts with Azrael and lieutenant can make 9.2 wounds pass to a 3++ knight. If they on their own, it will be 7 wounds. But you have 40 bodies! Which is an advantage against knights.  

3 Dev squads using cherub and sergeant +1 to hit with Azrael and lieutenant can make 12.5 wounds pass to a 3++ knight. 

 

If we optimize it a little bit, like scouts are outside for board control and dev squads stay with Azrael and Lt.:

40 sniper scouts.    => 6.9 wounds

2x5 men dev squads with 4 lascannon and Armorium Cherub.    => 8.3 wounds

1x5 men dev squad with 1 HB, 3 lascannon and Armorium Cherub.  => 6.4 wounds

 

Total will be 21.6 wounds on average. With a little bit of help from other units, like smite from librarian, you can kill a knight in 1 turn.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I think taking the extra bolter Devs is worth it too, they are cheapish and can shoot at the hordes and screens.

 

Think 6x10 man 4xGodhammer Lascannon squads, 60 guys at 1380pts 24 LC shots at 48" and 72 Bolter shots at 24" able to kill or at least maim most things; add buffs, scouts or BKs or RW bikers as mentioned by other esteemed frater here with the remaining points and things get better.

 

Nothing is perfect, but you will need to tailor a bit to kill Knights

[Orkinstein]

I think taking the extra bolter Devs is worth it too, they are cheapish and can shoot at the hordes and screens.

 

Think 6x10 man 4xGodhammer Lascannon squads, 60 guys at 1380pts 24 LC shots at 48" and 72 Bolter shots at 24" able to kill or at least maim most things; add buffs, scouts or BKs or RW bikers as mentioned by other esteemed frater here with the remaining points and things get better.

 

Nothing is perfect, but you will need to tailor a bit to kill Knights

 

For matched play, you cannot take more than 3 same units, right?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Meh, our community allows it.

You are probably right for serious play, then I'd take only three, and take more BKs, Hellblasters and Snipers.

[aura_enchanted]

My answer to invulnerable save is mortal wounds.

 

Another crazy choice is the sniper scout. 40 sniper scouts are 520 points and 3 lascannon dev squads with Armorium Cherub are 510.

40 scouts with Azrael and lieutenant can make 9.2 wounds pass to a 3++ knight. If they on their own, it will be 7 wounds. But you have 40 bodies! Which is an advantage against knights.  

3 Dev squads using cherub and sergeant +1 to hit with Azrael and lieutenant can make 12.5 wounds pass to a 3++ knight. 

 

If we optimize it a little bit, like scouts are outside for board control and dev squads stay with Azrael and Lt.:

40 sniper scouts.    => 6.9 wounds

2x5 men dev squads with 4 lascannon and Armorium Cherub.    => 8.3 wounds

1x5 men dev squad with 1 HB, 3 lascannon and Armorium Cherub.  => 6.4 wounds

 

Total will be 21.6 wounds on average. With a little bit of help from other units, like smite from librarian, you can kill a knight in 1 turn.

 

or, or.. here me out we throw a knight erranytat the problem knowing that if he cant handle it himself if his knight drops 1st the gamesasgood as won from the tempo swing

[SnakeChisler]

These are the choices I make

 

1. Ignore them get on with your game, kill what you can and keep the score ticking over

2. Add a Psyker stick him somewhere central (assume you have the banner) use mind wipe and Aversion. This tactic slows the game right down and let's you get on with tactic 1.

3. Add a combat knight with all the upgrades and full tilt it down the middle all you need is a couple of turns of disruption and your issue is normally getting through the 3++.

4. Use a blocker unit 10 Deathwing Knights say but your issue is they must make the charge and your pulling points from Hellblaster's

 

You need decent terrain as well

[CyberC1]

I've gone with the -> hide behind LOS blocking terrain or cover for the most part and try to get in position.

 

Use the following units (in a 2k army):

• 3 ravenwing bikers with combi-melta, 2x meltas
• 6 black knights
• 3 ravenwing bikers with combi-plasma, 2x plasmas
• Sableclaw (for the raven sword)
• Talonmaster (with Monster Slayer of Caliban)

Sneak 'em up close enough to signal the attack and unload (incl overcharging) - took down a Gallant things way.

 

I also take 5x Deathwing Knights with a Librarian as the warlord (Righteous Repugnance & master of maneuver) - deep strike into ruins / cover, and go the charge.  Using the fight again stratagem has been effective, I was able to bring a Castellan down to <10 wounds in one round of combat (same game as the Gallant one, he had 3 knights and a bunch of guard).

 

It's not great, but it's something.

[evil_demon]

3*7devastators (2*4 lascannon+1*4 plasmacannon +3 cherub), 

ancient with relic mace

lieutenant with heavenfall blade

azrael

apothecary

2*company champions

darkshroud

 

This can handle knights more or less. devastators with re-rolls gives a lot damage even to a 3++ knight (and in his shooting phase too) 

And what is funny, azrael+ancient+lieutenant +2*champions kills a gallant knight that came to you in a close combat in 1 or 2 phase. 

It doesn't work always good, but it can be opposed to knights. It costs 1056 now, and it is good to take larger squads of devs (more spacemarines in 4++ --> lives longer). 

I'v tested it about 4 times and it works well. Last game on 2000pts on local tournament, this guys take down gallant and castellan.

[G8Keeper]

Caestus Assault Ram loaded with Knights?  I'd definitely try it :)

[evil_demon]

Caestus Assault Ram loaded with Knights?  I'd definitely try it

it is not really good. I'v tried stormraven with 5 knights+asmodei. A lot of points doing nothing( caestus or raven or will be destroed on 1st turn, or terminators can not kill knight at 1 phase and die.