The Emperor's Gift

[Scribe]

Great posts Xisor.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Iron warriors took immense casualties during the crusade. Perturabo was just that good with logistics; his legion would have been the largest if he didn't also grind them down.

 

The sheer amount of recruitment is one of the big reasons Olympia rebelled; the black judges took far less as a tithe than their "saviour"

In comparison to the Horus Heresy/Great Scouring

 

Beta-Garmon alone had more casualties than all of the last five years of the Great Crusade

Yes, but not every legion participated at beta garmon. Especially not the main forces of the iron warriors and the world eaters; we can see in slaves to darkness that they're elsewhere. So your assertion that all legions lost more in the aftermath, even the attrition heavy ones, would be false.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Iron warriors took immense casualties during the crusade. Perturabo was just that good with logistics; his legion would have been the largest if he didn't also grind them down.

 

The sheer amount of recruitment is one of the big reasons Olympia rebelled; the black judges took far less as a tithe than their "saviour"

In comparison to the Horus Heresy/Great Scouring

 

Beta-Garmon alone had more casualties than all of the last five years of the Great Crusade

Yes, but not every legion participated at beta garmon. Especially not the main forces of the iron warriors and the world eaters; we can see in slaves to darkness that they're elsewhere. So your assertion that all legions lost more in the aftermath, even the attrition heavy ones, would be false.

I thought the phrase was that Beta-Garmon killed more people that everything that happened the last 5 years of the Great Crusade (more Astartes died at BG than the last years of the GC)

 

But yeah, not all Legions participated

[Leif Bearclaw]

As for the Space Wolves, it may not be a case of being recklessly wasteful. I haven’t read Wraight’s work on them,

 

It really isn't imo. While I've only read the first of Wraight's duology, it shows not a Wolves Chapter 'reduced' in influence, but arguably gaining more influence than they can support. As other Imperial forces reallocate resources, more worlds come into the Wolves 'sphere' and turn to them for protection and the Wolves rarely decline because it's their duty to protect the Emperor's domain. But this has the result of them spreading their forces thin, a major concern in the first book at least (although the 'secret conspiracy to screw them over' thing was weird, and badly explored, at least in the first book). It's also noted that this a very recent development, hardly the end result of centuries/millennia of short sighted recklessness.

 

A lot of what's said here is either just the standard SW muck slinging (or is based on retcon-ridden fluff I'm unaware of). There's more to a Chapter's influence than pure number of successors, and the SWs aren't some petty hooligans unable to play well with others. Neither are they reckless morons (If you still consider the King books canon, they note that the Chapter has recovered from losing 11 out of 12 companies in one swoop, multiple times. That's Crimson Fist level disaster, followed by full recovery) There's a reason Logan was given theatre command in the original 13th BC narrative. And saying the Wolves underwent no 'phase change' from their Legion days requires one to ignore everything that happens to them in the HH series (while imo a lot of it is terrible, I've never seen it said that the Wolves never changed).

 

As for TEG. Overall a very solid book, but it hits all my personal pros and cons with ADB's work. Very well written, but based on some ideas I just don't like. In this case the shift in the post Armageddon confrontation from Wolves vs Administratum (without direct conflict) to Wolves vs Inquistion/GKs, complete with a shooting war (as far as I'm aware, this book was the first time the 'Months of Shame' cropped up), and some very unfortunate bits from an overall 'setting level' perspective

mainly around the attack on Fenris, and how easily the Fang gets damaged (accidentally iirc), begging the question 'why didn't Magnus or Bucharis do that?'.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

mainly around the attack on Fenris, and how easily the Fang gets damaged (accidentally iirc), begging the question 'why didn't Magnus or Bucharis do that?'.

 

Because Magnus and Bucharis don't have the resources of the Inquisition to call upon to equip the entire Chapters fleet they have requisitioned for explicitly that purpose. Magnus may have had Legion forces, but the Thousand Sons aren't exactly a major naval power, and Bucharis wasn't leading a powerful military force. The Inquisition, on the other hand, brought an entire Chapter alongside the other Inquisitorial/Grey Knight vessels, and were led by a crazed Lord Inquisitor willing to do almost anything to see the Wolves humbled, with all the resources that come with that.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

mainly around the attack on Fenris, and how easily the Fang gets damaged (accidentally iirc), begging the question 'why didn't Magnus or Bucharis do that?'.

 

Because Magnus and Bucharis don't have the resources of the Inquisition to call upon to equip the entire Chapters fleet they have requisitioned for explicitly that purpose. Magnus may have had Legion forces, but the Thousand Sons aren't exactly a major naval power, and Bucharis wasn't leading a powerful military force. The Inquisition, on the other hand, brought an entire Chapter alongside the other Inquisitorial/Grey Knight vessels, and were led by a crazed Lord Inquisitor willing to do almost anything to see the Wolves humbled, with all the resources that come with that.

 

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. You're doing both previous attacking forces a disservice. The Sons attacked with a considerable fleet (while numbers are vague, referred to as a 'wall' of ships on Battle for the Fang), and Bucharis controlled a substantial secessionist Empire (50+ planets minimum, followed by major expansions) during the Plague of Unbelief, including Hydraphur, the Fleet Base for Battlefleet Pacificus. So both had substantial naval assets to call upon (certainly in the same league as the force attacking Fenris in TEG, which iirc was the Red Hunter's Chapter Fleet, plus some GK vessels), and were certainly powerful military forces.

 

Battle for the Fang notes repeatedly that the Sons built specialised bombardment ships and siege weapons, whose only purpose was to sunder the Fang. They were attacking, with complete orbital dominance, for 40 days. Bucharis's Siege lasted 3 years. Whereas what causes more damage in a day than either previous attack in TEG? Three damaged ships crash into the Fang (implying it wasn't even deliberate) and sunder the walls. If it was that easy to break open the toughest fortress outside of Terra, why didn't Magnus do it? Instead of building his bombardment ships, just ram the Fang, walls breached, job done. Bucharis had enormous Naval assets, sacrificing a couple would've been far less wasteful than a 3 year failing siege that heavily drained his armies. What really grinds my gears with it though it that it's so unnecessary. It's grimderp at it's finest, making things 'the worst ever' regardless of how little sense that makes. Bjorn could just as easily have ended the war with generic statements, 'the duplicitous Inquisitor's dead at you hand Logan, Fenris is burning (no specifics), enough of the Rout have died in this war, there are far more deserving foes for our wrath, this ends now' (or something like that).

 

The sense of fixed fortifications in 40k, when 'bomb it from orbit' is an option is already a somewhat strained concept (granted, not the only one in the setting), it didn't need undermining here.

[Phoebus]

Leif,

 

You’re getting into a topic that I’ve put a lot of thought into, as well.

 

At the risk of sounding blunt and unappreciative, the bottom line is that the consistency you’re looking for (with regards to effects on the battlefield) isn’t always there. More to the point, there’s never been a mandate for it. Depending on the Black Library novel, Codex, Forge World entry, or Index Astartes article, orbital bombardment might be integral to a campaign, largely ineffective, or even impossible to carry out. The size and importance of the target relative to the fleet attacking it often drives how effective orbital bombardment will be. What it really comes down to, though, is the author’s need.

 

With that in mind, it’s worth recognizing the subtle difference between Chris Wraight’s books and Aaron Dembski-Bowden’s. Wraight’s War of the Fang was a Space Marines Battles entry, with themes and considerations different from A D-B’s. The attack on the Fang occupies a central place in Wraight’s story, which is about that conflict specifically. By contrast, the Emperor’s Gift is less concerned with the tactics or mechanics of the attack and more focused on the outrage it causes among the Space Wolves themselves. In the former, it’s the story itself. In the latter, it’s a catalyst.

[Xisor]

Amazing to imagine that the state and quality of the defences of the Fang in 40k might not be quite as durable and resilient - even in the face of unintended consequences - than it was during the first and second sieges millennia earlier.

 

I am shocked. Shocked, I say!

 

Almost as if there had been a marked decrease in military significance of the defenders and/or an increasingly competent opposition to the Space Wolves against whom the Wolves hadn't entirely matched pace.

 

Sure, it's speculation, but it's not wild, and it's hardly an incredible leap from the texts or broader philosophy of the Imperium.

 

(Full disclosure: I have not read the Wrath of Magnus material.)

[Leif Bearclaw]

Leif,

 

You’re getting into a topic that I’ve put a lot of thought into, as well.

 

At the risk of sounding blunt and unappreciative, the bottom line is that the consistency you’re looking for (with regards to effects on the battlefield) isn’t always there. More to the point, there’s never been a mandate for it. Depending on the Black Library novel, Codex, Forge World entry, or Index Astartes article, orbital bombardment might be integral to a campaign, largely ineffective, or even impossible to carry out. The size and importance of the target relative to the fleet attacking it often drives how effective orbital bombardment will be. What it really comes down to, though, is the author’s need.

 

I agree, but I'd also argue that that level of consistency should be there. It's something to aim for in an expansive fictitious setting like 40k, because that's how you do good world-building. Abandon that standard, and you move towards the dark times of CS Goto.

 

As for orbital bombardment specifically. Yes, it is absolutely one of the more obvious 'stress points' in the 40k setting. Which is why is seems sensible to me to not draw attention to the fault line. In most works it's pretty easy to sideline, if the story requires that, 'you're fighting to take X, so don't destroy it with incredibly imprecise and powerful orbital weaponry' or 'X is super important, therefore it has shielding up the wazoo, so orbital strikes have minimal effect' but TEG doesn't do that, instead off-handedly introducing one of the most successful orbital 'strikes' (inverted commas because it's crashes, not even deliberate rams) we've seen in the setting short of full blown Exterminatus (because breaking open the greatest fortress outside Terra in less than a day is a big deal). Even Magnus, 500-odd years later (so it should be even easier then in TEG if you ascribe to the 'declining power and influence' line of thought) didn't have that easy a time of dealing with the Fang.

 

That's the thing, I just don't see how the bit in TEG fit the 'authors need'. It's only there for the grimderp 'everything is the worst EVER' idea, which is just naff imo. and something I'm increasingly tired of.

 

 

With that in mind, it’s worth recognizing the subtle difference between Chris Wraight’s books and Aaron Dembski-Bowden’s. Wraight’s War of the Fang was a Space Marines Battles entry, with themes and considerations different from A D-B’s. The attack on the Fang occupies a central place in Wraight’s story, which is about that conflict specifically. By contrast, the Emperor’s Gift is less concerned with the tactics or mechanics of the attack and more focused on the outrage it causes among the Space Wolves themselves. In the former, it’s the story itself. In the latter, it’s a catalyst.

That's actually one of the things I said bugs me the most about this bit of TEG. I agree, the attack isn't the main focus of the book, which is why it's weird and unnecessary to throw in that line. If that line is just changed to a more generic one, like I outlined in a previous post, then the story of TEG doesn't actually change in the slightest, and it doesn't raise the wider, world-building issues we're talking about.

 

Is it a minor issue in the grand scheme of things? Sure (hell, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who noticed it, which is possibly for the best, as the setting is stronger imo without this issue being brought up). Does it damage the book? Yes, but not enough to stop it being an overall positive read. But it's still an issue with TEG.

[Phoebus]

When it comes to consistency, you’re preaching to the choir. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be there, of course — just that (as you said) it doesn’t appear as if the editors require it.

 

Personally, I’m not a fan of the sidestepping angle. I completely get that not every situation will be similar, much less equal. At the end of the day, though, a battle-barge is meant to engage other starships moving at sub-light speed, tens of thousands of kilometers away. It is ostensibly capable of destroying other ships that are not just heavily shielded but effectively half the size of Manhattan — and made of metal.

 

With that in mind, when an author tries to inform me of the inaccuracy of orbital bombardment, my reflex reaction is to roll my eyes. Likewise if I’m being told — sans qualifiers — that Hive X or Random Geographical Feature Y is just too tough for orbital bombardment to crack, I’m inclined to think it’s lazy writing. I’m always ready and willing to be sold on a given target being effectively impervious, but that effort is rarely made — or, as you pointed out, required.

 

Now, where The Emperor’s Gift is concerned, orbital bombardment can’t be dismissed, and surface target invulnerability can’t be used as a plot device precisely because of what the author needed. In the grand scheme of things, the Fang being attacked is an affront... but it being actually damaged is far more evocative. Could that effect have been achieved better? Sure.

[Dosjetka]

While the Space Wolves did appear in this novel and the events of the novel do have an impact on people's perception of the Chapter, it's dragging the discussion off-topic and should take place in the appropriate area (the Space Wolves subforum). Please stick to the topic at hand, which is discussing what you thought of the book, not what you think of the Space Wolves Chapter. It's a fine line but it is there.