Black Templar Penitent Vanguard - Inspired by Sete

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Oh I see. No, I think THAT stretches the "limit".

Just because we're 'ad-hoc' doesn't means the chapter has no structure and can just do what ever we fancy. I would place Snipers directly in the Whirlwind/devastator category, the only units we ever really didn't have access to, because they were long ranged. So I think you need to think of some kind of exception to that.

[Marshal Reinhard]

EDIT: Meh, Adelard's capable of holding his own conversations, I tend to butt in too often.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No, that turns it from a debate into an argument. I won't want that, I like input from other sources.

[Marshal Rohr]

The chapter is ad-hoc and can do whatever it fancies. It sent 100 knights to Helsreach, not ten crusaders squads. In fact, the only squad it mentions is Grimaldus'. You're failing to grasp that the chapter is organized into groups who fight together out of familiarity makes designations like devastator irrelevant. Castellan isn't even a permanent rank, its just the guy the Marshal selects to lead the fighting company. Black Templars STILL don't have Devastator squads. They have groups of guys who might carry heavy weapons.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I take your point, but that fluff contradicts other fluff which states that we do have Assault 'Squads', or that members of crusader squads have their squad number literally painted on their legs. (How ad-hoc and fluid can it be if the individuals paint their armour to designate which squad they're in?)

[Marshal Rohr]

Considering squads have to repaint their armor after every single engagement, its not out of the realm of possibility. They can paint the number for the duration of the assault before returning to their vessel. The fluff about 'assault squads' was that they were given a special honor, no? That's why they get red shoulder trim and are given jump packs as an award. Like being able to wear a tabard, because that's not something everyone gets. The things Templars wear are designations of honor.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I dont think squads just change wether they're gonna use jump packs or not on the fly. There's a limited number of those available too. I imagine for a typical crusade, they might get jump packs to use, and signifying this role, repaint their shoulder pads to match.

 

Our fluff being woefully out of date doesn't help. The little blurbs you get in codex UM isn't a worthy substitute. 

 

Regardless, filling the gaps ourselves: red trimps are now a "close support" honour instead of just assault squads. There's no distinction between battleline and fire support.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think they all have tabards in the fluff. (There's some fluff about them having to embroider their own.)

The Assault Squad fluff is more that they have skill in close assault and were organised into dedicated squads.

 

The problem for me isn't so much the 'squads' (I agree with you on Devastators for example.)

 

It's more that the style of Vanguard fighting isn't fitting with our professed styles of combat, up close and personal charges, drop pod assaults or charging in on our tanks. I'm clearly not the only one who thought this as there were plenty of dismayed Templar players on the intro thread!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Regardless, filling the gaps ourselves: red trimps are now a "close support" honour instead of just assault squads. There's no distinction between battleline and fire support.

There is that image in the fluff book for Dark Imperium(?) Which shows fire support as white cross on black, which itself contradicts the 8th edition codex which has that for Chaplains. (As did all previous fluff)

 

I think what you can take from all this is that we're in a bit of a state!

[Marshal Rohr]

I think that only supports my point, though. You're Brother Adelard, you've been a good Templar for 50 years, and then your marshal gives you the honor of wearing a jump pack or gravis armor. You then get to petition to join an assault or aggressor squad, and after finding the right fit, that's your new squad. What doesn't make sense to me is that if Brother Adelard dropped the ball in battle, his punishment would be having to use a sniper rifle and perform long range reconnaissance, a weapon hes never used and a mission he's never done. Wouldn't it make more sense for the Black Templars to just have individual groups of knights who do those things ahead of the crusades? Like outriders or hunters of a knightly order? Imagine during the neophyte process they can determine some neophytes might fit that job better, and segregate them out and into new lines of training detached from the chapter as a whole, the way the legions did for destroyers and recon legionaries.

[Marshal Reinhard]

8th edition codex only details three pads: Standard, red border for close support, and veteran (swordbrethren colours). Afaik the white cross for chaplain was used in the 4th edition codex.. never looked in the DI book so wasn't aware it'd mention BT pad designs. Seems it got it odd though

 

EDIT: quick google search found it. Yeah, I'm just gonna assume DI got schemes wrong (or like, things weren't ironed out yet). It also signifies helmets with skulls as being "Lieutenants" (for a lot of chapters), which just isn't accurate since virtually all sergeant helmets have the skull symbol.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, it was a bit strange. There's a thread about it somewhere.

 

I did think about the experience aspect in my OP, Primaris marines would have learnt those skills in their time with the Grayshields, hence my narrative fudge to explain why it only happened post-rift.

 

But you're right as well, there is, for instance, the scout sniper fluff story, which suggests that Neophytes do learn how to use sniper rifles during their final stages of training.

[Marshal Rohr]

I personally don't see the greyshields or any first generation primaris being a factor in this. I think it makes it easier for everyone if the Primaris we see now are all homegrown.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Maybe, except we don't really know at the moment how we, as a chapter, are training them. Considering how what little we know about training Primaris, again directly contradicts our stated training practices. That's why I preferred the Grayshields idea.

 

There are way too many contradictions in our fluff!

[Arganias]

Maybe some enemies are so loathsome they don't deserve the dignity of crossing blades with the Templars. Some deserve to be destroyed at range and without dignity.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Maybe some enemies are so loathsome they don't deserve the dignity of crossing blades with the Templars. Some deserve to be destroyed at range and without dignity.

That's a rather Iron Hands-y attitude. Nothing wrong with that, so long as the Emperor's Champions' firepower is directed towards enemies of Him on Terra.

[Marshal Reinhard]

The laziest version I can think of, is giving everyone a DW pad on the left arm, painting it silver and thus having vanguard units all being returned DW veterans, that then banded together to form squads that would employ the 'unorthodox' fighting methods they picked up from the Deathwatch.... Not nearly as flavourful, but perhaps even in the pentinent fighting company version of this, you could sprinkle in a DW pad here and there to show that the style didn't spring from nowhere?

 

The units im mostly interested in from shadowspear doesn't neccessarily even need this angle though, but I'm still mulling it over.

[Schlitzaf]

So the new Vangaurd;

Infilitrators > bye bye Intercessors (maybe).

Suppressors > replacing my Reivars with them.

 

Basically valuing these units at 100 pointish points each means I have all said and done around 440 points to spend.

[Sete]

After seeing them, I firmly believe I will never buy a single one of them.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

I hate the jump pack assault devastators. The others are ...fine. if I ever get them, they'll be primaris neophytes. I like the idea of Black Templars making experienced veteran primaris Marines go through the neophyte process because whatever they were before, they weren't Templars. Get in the back of the line!

[Medjugorje]

After seeing them, I firmly believe I will never buy a single one of them.

i thought so too... but I started a Chaos Space Marine army as well - so i have to buy it (and then sell them)

[Marshal Vespasian]

 

 

After seeing them, I firmly believe I will never buy a single one of them.

i thought so too... but I started a Chaos Space Marine army as well - so i have to buy it (and then sell them)

I wanted to start one too and still plan to. But as the rumour mill says the csm are going to be monopose, I wont get the Box.

The suppressors might be good for us because they can suppress overwatch. The captain looks Kind of cool.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think I'll wait it out for the boxes and probably just get the Eliminators and the Infiltrators. I just don't get the suppressors with that load out.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

One thought, a Primaris Vanguard Marshal with the Crusader's Helm is a pretty good backfield buff aura provider. With the Helm he can potentially deny a 30 inch diameter area for deep strike!

[Arganias]

I'll be honest, I like what's in the box, but the monopose kind of kills it for me. I could convert them, but I have a hard time reconciling stealthy bois and Black Templars. I mean, I might make a Blood Ravens strike force out of them. We'll see if Templars get them in the fluff.