helfrost: how to fix it, what to change discussion

[Guest Triszin]

I wanted to make this to have a legit open conversation about helfrost.

With the upcoming survey I figured most of the aett should try to get on the same page.


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Atm we have helfrost in a few options, pistol destroyer Cannon and twin linked. And frankly the rules are just... There. They are subpart and that's it.


So, what should we do to make it better, balanced and unique? And different from flamers melts plasma and volkite.
What utility could we give it over on a damage roll of a 6 add a single mortal wound.

some quick thoughts
( B. is for Helfrost pistols through Hel frost Cannons, and "helfrost destructor dispsersed"
B. Movement reduction utility
Helfrost pistol:
(pistol 1, S8 AP-4 dam D3)
-If you successfull hit a target with a helfrost weapon, reduce movement values(move, advance, charge) by D3 (to a minimum of 1") for the afflicted unit/s for 1 full turn. (movement reduction from helfrost damage does not stack)
- If the afflicted unit is a monster or flyer roll a d6 instead

- would turn this into a interesting Utility weapon
- SLow flyers, allowing your troops to pick it apart.
- Slow Big Monsters and vehicles making them take longer to get into position

- if you land a shot with Helfrost in overwatch, you might be able to remove the unit from combat keeping them in shooting range

 

helfrost destructor

HAS TWO SPECIAL RULES

 

DISPERESED

-If you successfull hit a target with a helfrost weapon, reduce movement values(move, advance, charge) by D3 (to a minimum of 1") for the afflicted unit/s for 1 full turn. (movement reduction from helfrost damage does not stack)

- If the afflicted unit is a monster or flyer roll a d6 instead

 

FOCUSED

option 1

-If you successfull hit a target with a helfrost weapon, reduce movement values(move, advance, charge) by D3 (to a minimum of 1") for the afflicted unit/s for 1 full turn. (movement reduction from helfrost damage does not stack)

- If the afflicted unit is a monster or flyer roll a d6 instead

- if you wound a target with the helfrost destructor focused beam attack, roll a d3, add that many mortal wounds in addition.

option 2

-If you successfull hit a target with a helfrost weapon, reduce movement values(move, advance, charge) by D6 (to a minimum of 1") for the afflicted unit/s for 1 full turn. (movement reduction from helfrost damage does not stack)

- If the afflicted unit is a monster or flyer roll a 2d6 instead

 

 

STRATEGEM

HELWINTER:
If you successfully damage a "Monster" or "Vehicle" with a tiered profile with a "Helfrost" weapon. for the purpose of the tier profile, treat the model as though it had double its current wounds (the model does not instantly double its wounds) and if it were to then be in a lower tier profile then it will operate as though it were in that tier for the next turn.

i.e

tier 1

W 8-10 M 10 A 5 S8

-the model has 2 damage, with this strat treat it as though it had 4. thus, now operating in tier 2

tier 2

w 4-7 M 7 A 3 S 6

 

 

- this might be a bit over powered, but adds a different utility method. See that titan? Well I froze half its body and now its legs are barely moving and half its guns are frozen.

[PeteySödes]

I've always been an advocate for the movement reduction proposal for helfrost. The worst thing in the game though is "______ on a 6", you might as well keep the MW thing. I'd rather it be a successful hit reducing all movement (move,advance, charge) by D3 and maybe on a wound D6. Or even D6 regardless, that way you can actually think strategically and plan around using it.

[Kallas]

Yeah, I'd second the movement reduction, it'd give Helfrost weapons a really solid horde control option: swing some Stormfangs/wolves in front of a couple of units of Ork Boys (for example), Helfrost them while most of your guns go in to cutting down other units.

 

Or you could give it some kind of rider, like imposing a -1 on non-Invulnerable Save rolls after its resolved its attacks to represent armour becoming more brittle, which would help out against some tougher things but also let us punch out medium/light hordes (Boys, GEQs, Scions, Tau, etc) more effectively.

[Guest Triszin]

I've always been an advocate for the movement reduction proposal for helfrost. The worst thing in the game though is "______ on a 6", you might as well keep the MW thing. I'd rather it be a successful hit reducing all movement (move,advance, charge) by D3 and maybe on a wound D6. Or even D6 regardless, that way you can actually think strategically and plan around using it.

good advice, rewrote the movement one under your advice.

 

something like that?

[PeteySödes]

Id say scrap the Mortal wound bit entirely. They (GW) seems to overvalue even the "MW on a 6" better to to be without IMO. I do like the lowering tiered profiles though. Maybe using that as an additional strat?

 

Coldsnap 1 CP- "A model that is hit by a weapon with the HELFROST ability must half their current wounds for the purposes of determining what their characteristics are this turn."

 

That plus the movement ability would be my dream. Theyre not common enough to break the game with spam but would give some real strategic teeth.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Fearpetey suggestion on reducing movement speed is cool, my only addition is that it DOESN'T need to wound to take effect, just being hit is enough even if it isn't wounded to reduce movement and advance rolls by half. Pretty much Triszin Option B. 

 

In addition, like Fearpetey menton, I absolutely detest  ______ on a 6 stuff, which in the first place, has to wound first. Frostfury rules is slightly better, activating on a 4+ for ONE mortal wound, which isn't that OP.

 

However, I don't think this will fix the Heavy variant which Dreadnoughts (and Bjorn) carry, as the range is far too short and random.

 

My last recommendation, although unlikely as it'll require a whole new cast for Long Fangs, which is unlikely given the new Primaris drive, GIVE OUR INFANTRY HELLFROST CANNONS! Sorry for caps, it's an old idea that I still advocate if only to take advantage of our infantry needs. With 5 Hellfrost cannons per Long Fang squad, the D3 shots will finally mean something.

[Runefyre]

If GW wants to stick with the mortal wounds gimmic, they should have doubled down in it. They have to know it's pathetic in it's current form, they just don't need to sell the kits at this point. Give helfrost weapons the same rule as the genestealer cult rock drill where you deal mortal wounds after damage is dealt on a 2+, 3+, etc all the way to 6, stopping if you fail the roll. This could at least give a sense of the spreading chill and give it some real usefulness.

[Guest Triszin]

Updated B. Again.

 

I do like the STRAT Idea for C. so worded like, ( for purposed of a tiered profile, double the wounds, if it is now in the next tier that is what the target operates at. regardless of what the real count of wounds is)

 

my wording is bad

 

 

 

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the helfrost destructor would need something added to that ruleset as its a giant version.

min movement reduction of D6, if targeting vehicles.monsters up it to a potential 2d6?

[GrFlur]

I like the B option

 

It's Ice.. freeze and wait for our axes to come!!!!

[NightHowler]

I second FPS’s suggestion. Negative movement would be beneficial, uncommon, and fluffy in the sense that the unit is chilled or frozen in place.

[Guest Triszin]

so my question.

 

The Helfrost rules would be  the " B " rules for the Helfrost weapons on dreadnaughts down.

 

but for the "Helfrost Destructor"

 

what should the rules be?

if "B" are for everything else?

 

Helfrost disperesed the same rules as B

 

Helfrost focused can trigger the Strat on a succesful wound roll, without it being a strat?

or helfrost destructor focused causes D6 " movement value reductions, and if the target is a "monster" or "flyer" reduce their movement values by 2d6"?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Nice updates based on all our ideas, looks like we are in agreement that with just hitting, not necessarily wounding, we slow the movement, advance and charge by D3. I guess half would be slightly OP.

 

As for the strategem, personally I rather avoid the whole "next tier' thingie as the wording is confusing no matter how good our English is. Perhaps in addition to the slowing down of speed..... :

 

1) additional hit penalty to the afflicted unit of -1 in shooting and fight phase

2) all units gain +1 to wound when attacking the unit wounded by hellfrost

3) Unable to move AT ALL until the YOUR next turn.

4) REMOVE MODEL FROM TABLE! BWAHAAHAHAHA!!! Sorry, I still remember when the old Hellfrost rules worked ONCE in my gaming life against a Riptide, freezing it off the board. Anyway, maybe make it simpler, simply double the wounds done on your number of wound rolls.

[PeteySödes]

As for the strategem, personally I rather avoid the whole "next tier' thingie as the wording is confusing no matter how good our English is. Perhaps in addition to the slowing down of speed.

Tbf I took that wording straight form the Iyanden and Valhallan tactics.

[One Two Wolf]

+1 to wound only for frost weapons. Always oppose the soup!

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

As for the strategem, personally I rather avoid the whole "next tier' thingie as the wording is confusing no matter how good our English is. Perhaps in addition to the slowing down of speed.

Tbf I took that wording straight form the Iyanden and Valhallan tactics.

 

 

Just worried about rules lawyers. Not to mention it'll have no effect on those who don't have tiers, such as Guilliman or daemon princes.

[PeteySödes]

 

 

 

As for the strategem, personally I rather avoid the whole "next tier' thingie as the wording is confusing no matter how good our English is. Perhaps in addition to the slowing down of speed.

Tbf I took that wording straight form the Iyanden and Valhallan tactics.

Just worried about rules lawyers. Not to mention it'll have no effect on those who don't have tiers, such as Guilliman or daemon princes.

I’m not advocating that being it. I was saying the move debuff being attached to the weapon and in addition to that, a strategem. I don’t see how people argue that, it’s literally the inverse of existing rules. Not being able to use that strat against your example of gman and DPs doesn’t devalue it either. You simply don’t spend CP when shooting at single profile models.

[Guest Triszin]

would like input on the helfrost destructor I added in

[Jarl Deathwolf]

I like these rules since they synergize well with another underused Space Wolves tool - the Jaws of the World Wolf. Drop their movement for a full turn means that by our next psychic phase the world wolf will find much easier prey.

[Guest Triszin]

I like these rules since they synergize well with another underused Space Wolves tool - the Jaws of the World Wolf. Drop their movement for a full turn means that by our next psychic phase the world wolf will find much easier prey.

A utility that slightly improves our other fluffy things, but doesnt make them OP.

 

would also encourage more Helfrost style lists.

 

also fluffy: Russ's armor slows down targets movements, so the reverse engineered helfrost weapons slow movement.

[Splog]

An enemy unit hit by a Helfrost weapon counts as having moved in its movement phase (to represent them being slowed somewhat by the freezing effects, would give -1 to hit from heavy weapons and prevent some actions like orbital bombardments and daemon summoning) OR an enemy unit hit by a Helfrost weapon may not advance in its next turn.

 

AND for every enemy model slain by this weapon their unit suffers d3 hits with a strength equal to the toughness of the slain model, AP 0 (or even +1) D1 (the victim turns to ice and shatters spraying their comrades with shrapnel) OR jist borrow the shrieker cannon rules.

 

Stratagem - Helfrost grenades, 1CP. Any unit that has grenades can fire a Helfrost grenade. Some grenade attack profile or other with the Helfrost rule.

 

 

 

Or for something completely different.... come up with a rule that Helfrost and frost weapons share.

[Splog]

Helfrost (for frost weapons as well) - units hit by a Helfrost weapon may not fallback in their following turn

[PeteySödes]

Helfrost (for frost weapons as well) - units hit by a Helfrost weapon may not fallback in their following turn

Off topic but I was hoping we’d get that with the new codex as a strat anyways. “The Rout” or somesuch.

[logan_grimnar18]

Would you propose that a hellfrost gun do the same thing (thinking plasma gun, cannon, mega cannon style)? If so may be the destructor could reduce 2 tiers. Maybe on a 6 even though FPS hates that ;) or a permanent tier reduction? 

[PeteySödes]

Would you propose that a hellfrost gun do the same thing (thinking plasma gun, cannon, mega cannon style)? If so may be the destructor could reduce 2 tiers. Maybe on a 6 even though FPS hates that or a permanent tier reduction? 

 

Permanent would be brutal lol. Its a new thing but what about this for the destructor:

 

Unit must operate on its lowest teir until such time as it moves its M value. We see a lot of movement reduction debuffs but this could be kinda neat to punish gunline. Being forced to move something you dont want too could be nasty without being game breaking and its thematic as they need to move joints, breack ice in tracks, etc.

 

Its a half baked idea atm but i think at its core there could be something there.

[Guest Triszin]

Permanent reductions is bad.

I like Temporary 1 turn reductions, but if we hit them again, it keeps it active again.

 

and by having it lower the entire profile, it represent ICE, not only freezing the servo motors, but freezing the gun batteries in position.

 

IMaigne Hitting a Castellan with this and knocking it down a tier, that would do a LOT in terms of reduction of its capabilities. even if its just for a turn or two before the stormwolf gets taken out.

 

and if we further tie it to our CP, then that means requirement 1 is , hitting a target with helfrost and 2 is using CP to activate Helwinter, to temporarily reduce the effectiveness of a target.

 

1CP might be an expensive spend for this ability on most things, but 1CP might be too cheap then if you use it against the biggest tiered threats. so it kinda balances it out.

 

 

 

so that begs the question for me, What if the model has a INvulnerable save? would that be the only way to "save" against this attack or would we just keep it on hit?

if its still on hit, it could represent Helfrost ICE building on/around the shield itself, then the target has to break through that ice even though it took no damage, which I also like.

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I don't think adding the lowering of a profile tier to the helfrost destructor is a good option, I like the 2d6 " move value reduction for monsters and vehicles it offers.

Because that generally means it allows us to fight those targets at mid range, instead of long range or close range.

 

which certainly fits the space wolves, we are a mid range to cqc squad. with a focus on midrange.