rendingon1+ Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Herald: Does he get a WS bonus from his own banner (loyalists). Rules state that every model including Herald within 12" get a +1WS to max of WS5. Well, Herald is WS5 already so I'm confused. Praevian: With new playtest rules automato he has joined get no bonuses from LA rule he has. Does it mean praevian effectively loses his USR (assuming it's part of the LA rule) if normally it is conferred to the unit he joins/is part of? Cortex designator - if praevian hits a unit with his shooting attack, automata get PE vs that unit until the end of the turn. Does it also include cc? Librarian: You pay 25 pts for a consul upgrade: does it count as upgrading him to Psyker? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1. The Herald is already WS 5, so he won't be buffed to a higher WS. 2. The Praevian is still a character with his LA set of rules. The Automata get benefits depending on the LA rules / Legion in question. I don't see any model losing anything here, the wording is pretty straightforward. 3. Yes. 4. What ? Making him a Librarian costs 25 pts. to start with. Then you pay 20 pts. per mastery level up to level 2. Thus a level 2 Librarian costs 50 + 25 + 40 = 115 pts. plus wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 1. Well, so I though. I guess it will work vs sonic shriekrs other WS debuffs than. 2. Actual wording is: "Note that the Battle-automata themselves do not possess the Legiones Astartes special rule and do not benefit from the Legiones Astartes rule possessed by the Praevian". So if AL/RG praevian has "by wing and talon" or "mutable tactics" which de facto is infiltrate - do robots infiltrate? 3. This is of course correct, but a new player insist that 25pts librarian upgrade includes word "psyker" and he can be given also 2ML in addition. It's really hard to persuade him it's not so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 The Automata do not get the LA rule per se. They do get a set of abilities / rules based on your Legion. The Praevian though still retains all his rules. For a unit to be able to infiltrate all the models in the unit need to have the USR. Thus, no infiltrating Castellax here. Scout is still a thing though, which should be fair enough in my humble opinion. The wording on the Librarian is not ambivalent at all either. It clearly states that he 'must take up to two levels of psychic mastery'. Not more, not less. He can select to have one level of mastery, or two levels of mastery. There is no 'free' level of psychic mastery just by selecting to be a Librarian. He will get three to four psychic powers though: Two powers which you will roll for on the respective Psychic Discipline' table, one primaris power for having psychic focus, plus 'Force' since he will be armed with a Force Weapon in 99% of all cases. Maybe this will make it a bit more accessible for this new player. EDIT: Addendum: On a sidenote, in the very fist printing of the Crusade Army list, Librarians could take up to three levels indeed. But that book has been superseded like ... three years ago by now. Maybe your new player hasn't read the latest incarnation of the army list but the old one ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmus Tyro Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 The Automata do not get the LA rule per se. They do get a set of abilities / rules based on your Legion. The Praevian though still retains all his rules. For a unit to be able to infiltrate all the models in the unit need to have the USR. Thus, no infiltrating Castellax here. Scout is still a thing though, which should be fair enough in my humble opinion. The wording on the Librarian is not ambivalent at all either. It clearly states that he 'must take up to two levels of psychic mastery'. Not more, not less. He can select to have one level of mastery, or two levels of mastery. There is no 'free' level of psychic mastery just by selecting to be a Librarian. He will get three to four psychic powers though: Two powers which you will roll for on the respective Psychic Discipline' table, one primaris power for having psychic focus, plus 'Force' since he will be armed with a Force Weapon in 99% of all cases. Maybe this will make it a bit more accessible for this new player. EDIT: Addendum: On a sidenote, in the very fist printing of the Crusade Army list, Librarians could take up to three levels indeed. But that book has been superseded like ... three years ago by now. Maybe your new player hasn't read the latest incarnation of the army list but the old one ? Your point about all models in the unit requiring the “infiltrate” in order to do so is, unfortunately incorrect. If you read the infiltrate rule it specifically mentions that “you may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last”. This is how Alpha legion and raven guard players are able to infiltrate rapier batteries. The issue with infiltration and characters revolves around the limitation of independant characters not being allowed to join units without the rule, and vice versa. Thus preventing you from infiltrating a unit by attaching a character with the rule. Whilst the praevian is an independent character, he essentially looses this ability and “must” join a unit or vorax or castellax. Page 20 of the AoD rulebook (basic vs advanced box bottom left) suggests that where there is a conflict/contradiction in the rules, the other publication takes precedence over the rulebook. Therefore, the praevian is allowed to join his own unit (he must, as per the AoD crusade army list) and therefore confers infiltrate rule to the unit (as per the AoD rulebook). So they get two special rules for being sneaky Alpha legion dudes.... Cadmus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Intriguing. I have seen it being argued either way to be honest. The Praevian is an IC and has the potential to acquire the infiltrate USR via the means of 'Mutable Tactics'. When an IC with the USR joins a unit without the USR, it is not conferred, nor is it when an IC without infiltrate joins a unit that has it. That's the ruling on infiltrate how it's written in the USR entry. So far, so good. As for the Praevian joining his unit of Castellax (or Vorax), there's nothing phrased in the aforementioned 'Basic vs. Advanced' rules box that convinces me that he would override the USR rules. Yes, his army list entry makes it mandatory for him to join the unit of Automata, but why would there be an exception to the USR ruling ? The FAQ'd entry on 'Legion Inductees' heading even states that the Automata gain a set of 'special rules listed below based on the LA special rules ... ' but in the Alpha Legion entry at the bottom these benefits are clearly formulated. Further on, there's this: 'Note that the Battle-Automata themselves do not posses the LA special rule and do not benefit from the LA special rule possessed by the Praevian.' Which makes it pretty clear if you ask me. No infitlrating robots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmus Tyro Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Scratch that response! I think you’re right, purely based on the last sentence of the paragraph, preventing the automata benefiting from the LA rule of the praevian! Sorry! Although, I’m still right about the rapiers ;) Cadmus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Well, praevians doesn't "join" the unit. A single unit of either Castellax or Vorax class Battle-automata must be selected as part of the Legion Praevian unit. They're a single unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Doesn't change a thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Doesn't change a thing. Yes it does, one unit, one of them has infiltrate and thus the unit can infiltrate. He can't join a unit he is one together with the robots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Mood point, because ... Further on, there's this: 'Note that the Battle-Automata themselves do not posses the LA special rule and do not benefit from the LA special rule possessed by the Praevian.' Which makes it pretty clear if you ask me. No infitlrating robots. How much clearer can it get ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5259937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 "Note that Alpha Legion or Rven Guard praevian does not confer Infiltration to any battla automata they have joined, no matter what you think. Period. End of case." lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5260003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 The Automata do not get the LA rule per se. They do get a set of abilities / rules based on your Legion. The Praevian though still retains all his rules. For a unit to be able to infiltrate all the models in the unit need to have the USR. Thus, no infiltrating Castellax here. Scout is still a thing though, which should be fair enough in my humble opinion. The wording on the Librarian is not ambivalent at all either. It clearly states that he 'must take up to two levels of psychic mastery'. Not more, not less. He can select to have one level of mastery, or two levels of mastery. There is no 'free' level of psychic mastery just by selecting to be a Librarian. He will get three to four psychic powers though: Two powers which you will roll for on the respective Psychic Discipline' table, one primaris power for having psychic focus, plus 'Force' since he will be armed with a Force Weapon in 99% of all cases. Maybe this will make it a bit more accessible for this new player. EDIT: Addendum: On a sidenote, in the very fist printing of the Crusade Army list, Librarians could take up to three levels indeed. But that book has been superseded like ... three years ago by now. Maybe your new player hasn't read the latest incarnation of the army list but the old one ? Your point about all models in the unit requiring the “infiltrate” in order to do so is, unfortunately incorrect. If you read the infiltrate rule it specifically mentions that “you may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last”. Although correctly quoted it is nonetheless not complete.If you look up the rules for IC you may find a passage regarding infiltration and there you read that an IC without infiltration cannot join a unit with I. *and vice versa*. So no, you can't give infiltration with an IC to a unit without it. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5263948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadmus Tyro Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 That’s not what I was saying at all, we are in agreement I.e you can’t infiltrate a unit (without the infiltrate rule) as the character with infiltrate cannot join unit in the first place. Speaking of misquoting, my post specifically calls out the issue you mentioned. I’d suggest rereading my post. Your point about all models in the unit requiring the “infiltrate” in order to do so is, unfortunately incorrect. If you read the infiltrate rule it specifically mentions that “you may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last”. This is how Alpha legion and raven guard players are able to infiltrate rapier batteries. The issue with infiltration and characters revolves around the limitation of independant characters not being allowed to join units without the rule, and vice versa. Thus preventing you from infiltrating a unit by attaching a character with the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5264197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 That’s not what I was saying at all, we are in agreement, and my post specifically calls out the issue you mentioned. I’d suggest rereading my post. Your point about all models in the unit requiring the “infiltrate” in order to do so is, unfortunately incorrect. If you read the infiltrate rule it specifically mentions that “you may choose to deploy units that contain at least one model with this special rule last”. This is how Alpha legion and raven guard players are able to infiltrate rapier batteries. The issue with infiltration and characters revolves around the limitation of independant characters not being allowed to join units without the rule, and vice versa. Thus preventing you from infiltrating a unit by attaching a character with the rule. LolI apologize. :D Don't know how I got that wrong. :facepalm: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5264199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Just double checking, Herald is still support officer Am I right? Meaning you’d need say a champ or chaplain to lead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5278605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Just double checking, Herald is still support officer Am I right? Meaning you’d need say a champ or chaplain to lead.Yes. Even bigger flaw is his Rite of Command trait which basically means that he HAS to be the warlord of your army which not only makes no sense what so ever but is a pain in the ass because that's why he is worth at least 2 victory points in most games and even more in some. Very stupid rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5278860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Primus Nullifactor: He has cataphractii armour and maul, but nothing is said about not retaining his PA wargear. So he has chainsword, bolt pistol, frag'krak grenades and can replace them as normal? Am i reading it right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5280128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Just double checking, Herald is still support officer Am I right? Meaning you’d need say a champ or chaplain to lead.Yes. Even bigger flaw is his Rite of Command trait which basically means that he HAS to be the warlord of your army which not only makes no sense what so ever but is a pain in the ass because that's why he is worth at least 2 victory points in most games and even more in some. Very stupid rules. But he can’t be the warlord due to support officer am I right? I was thinking of a list of a seige breaker as war lord and herald as ROC just for coolness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5280653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Just double checking, Herald is still support officer Am I right? Meaning you’d need say a champ or chaplain to lead.Yes. Even bigger flaw is his Rite of Command trait which basically means that he HAS to be the warlord of your army which not only makes no sense what so ever but is a pain in the ass because that's why he is worth at least 2 victory points in most games and even more in some. Very stupid rules. But he can’t be the warlord due to support officer am I right? I was thinking of a list of a seige breaker as war lord and herald as ROC just for coolness He can't be the compulsory HQ but he HAS to be the warlord. Stupid rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5280677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Unless of you take a praetor, primarch or delegatus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5281214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Unless of you take a praetor, primarch or delegatusOf course. It's just weird that a standard bearer has to be warlord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5281371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 My question seems to be lost but I'm really curiousabout this one (so again;)): Primus Nullifactor: He has cataphractii armour and maul, but nothing is said about not retaining his PA wargear. So he has chainsword, bolt pistol, frag'krak grenades and can replace them as normal? Am i reading it right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353954-some-consul-questions/#findComment-5281440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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