Summoning- Worth another look?

[Arufel87]

So now that LVO is over we can see that a Daemon list made it into the top 10 which included a chunk of points held behind for summoning. Which units are best to summon and what kind of lists might support these playstyles?

[Panzer]

To answer that we would require some review of how he actually used these points (when, for what, in what kind of situation) and his personal review of whether it was worth it or just a gamble that didn't pay off but also luckily didn't hurt too much this time.

[Excessus]

I always thought it useful (though I lack the models) to be able to summon a squad of 10 Pink horrors but have paid points for the other types for splitting. The splitting ones doesn't improve the power level so you basically can summon a huge blob (in due time) that is difficult to kill as easily as a regular squad of 10 deamons.

[Arufel87]

According to the reports he had a huge amount of daemons to choose from and summoned whatever he needed depending on the army he faced. I would be fascinated to watch a battle report of it all as I've never had much success with summoning.

[WickedJester1013]

I always saw value in keeping enough points to summon one of the heralds again if killed. The way I looked at it I never wanted to take 2 of the same heralds(nurgle flavor). Other amies have to take multiple characters for redundancy where as we can take less and keep a couple points on the side. If the enemy kills your bilepipper you can summon a new one, if not you can summon whatever I guess.

[Cheex]

Way I see it, it's not unlike the new Assassins stratagem (where they pay a CP and pick which assassin they want for that game, without using a detachment) that people are going gaga over. Summoning even has a few advantages over it: it doesn't cost CPs, and you can choose where the unit goes after deployment.

 

The Assassins stratagem works because all of them are the same cost. If you can have several daemon units ready that are all roughly the same cost, you can do much the same thing.

 

For my Khorne, I'm thinking of putting aside 160pts, allowing me to choose from:

1. Anti-psyker: Karanak (70) and 5 Flesh Hounds (83 - might as well splurge for that Gorehound).

2. Objective holders: 20 Bloodletters with Musician (150) or Icon (155).

3. Support: Skull Cannon (90) and 10 Bloodletters (70).

4. Shock unit: 3 Bloodcrushers with Instrument (151).

5. Why not: Daemon Prince on foot (156).

 

This would leave me with plenty of points for a double Battalion for the CPs and Bloodletter bombs.

[WickedJester1013]

Does any one have more information on the daemon lists at LVO? I’d love to see how they played at top level what what the list contained .

[Brother Crimson]

The list itself is not that original or weird:

Arhriman+2 DP of tzeench

Bilepiper, Srivener, Enrapturness, two big units of plague bearer and a nurgling.

A nurgle tree

 

What is unique is those

647 pts of summoning !

 

It is the subject of the weeks Josh Death’s podcast: in the finest hour.

 

https://inthefinesthour.podbean.com/e/ep17-summoning/

[WickedJester1013]

I would like to summoning get some sort of buff like if you summon the models are worth half points or something. I remember when daemons used to have deployment tricks akin to the new GSC when you wount stay with any models on the table and you have to deep strike half your army your first turn

[Brother Crimson]

The ability to toolbox your list is a great ability. If you listen to the podcast you will see how summoning can actually be good. I find that 650 point is a bit extreme but having some spare point for a specific spell by a herald, a fiend locking units, some volume of fire hit or heavy weapon is a great thing.

[Panzer]

I'm just wondering what kind of daemon units he considered as useful tools to choose from as most daemons are just different shades of green (or purple/red/blue :P). If there were daemons with dedicated options like anti-tank and anti-horde I could see it but most are just about mass of low strength melee attacks one way or another. ^^

[Mr4Minutes]

In every game he dropped in another squad of plague bearers. He says these were crucial because, as they aren’t actually part of your army, you can’t score points for killing them(ITC missions).

 

He speaks highly of fiends for tying up units as well.

 

And he like nurgle beasts because they have a low PL cost, so easily summoned.

 

I’ve listened to that podcast for most of their episodes, and it’s pretty decent. It’s from abusepuppy, whose usually on Chapter Tactics.

[Panzer]

He says these were crucial because, as they aren’t actually part of your army, you can’t score points for killing them(ITC missions).

 

Alright that's actually a valid reason .. though very tournament specific as there's no such official rule. :P

The other stuff though he could have gotten just as well via regular detachment and even get either CP for it or deep strike them more freely and also get access to the other stratagems.

[WickedJester1013]

I can see his point, but I think it’s really a competive view point. In most regular games you’ll have an idea what armies your fighting. In big tournies you have to be able to counter all you face with one list. His idea is that you can list counter, at one point he talks about summon soul grinders if your enemy has little anti tank, or how a horror bomb works on some enemies but doesn’t on a lot. That was my big take away. Oh and he talks about resummoning lost key characters like bile pipers several times in a game if killed.

[Brother Crimson]

Yeah the biggest advantage is really to tailor your list to the opponent. With assassins it’s pretty much the only ways to have a sideboard to choose from to maximize your chances.

 

Of course it is a competitive viewpoint, one where you usually have to face 5 opponents that can have vastly different lists from knights to boys spam. Changing aspects of your list can have a vast impact on the game.

 

For tzeench, choosing between 30 horrors or 3 exalted flamers can be a real game changer. I’ve been testing keeping about 210-225 reserves and it can really help.

 

Other toolbox uses I see:

 

Summon heralds if you need a specific second psychic power against certain armies.

 

Get flamers to auto hit a culexus assassin that will show up half of the goddamn games if you run plenty of psycher.

 

Karanak for Khorne against psychic (as mentioned earlier)

 

It’s about highly specialized units that you won’t necessarily put in every list but that can come in handy once every two or three games.

[Panzer]

re-summoning characters is another good point.

I'm aware of the tailoring your list to your opponent on the fly aspect. I just don't see it as very viable with Daemons since there isn't that much to tailor too. Daemons are a very straight forward army with lots of similar and partially redundant units imo.

 

I guess my question is ... what ARE the tools? What kind of unit would you summon in which situation and why would it be that specific unit instead of another? Most of time people try to answer that question you could replace summoning easily with just another detachment and gain more benefits as the units they'd summon for those specific situations would be good in general anyway.

The best 'tool' I could figure out so far is to summon and re-summon specific characters like Karanak, the Slaanesh Harp guy etc. Everything else, especially if it includes Troop Daemons would be better to just take in a regular detachment since having some ObSec horde that also gives you CP and access to Stratagems etc is never a bad thing to have regardless of your opponents list.

[WickedJester1013]

for the reason that what you take to fight a knight is not what you take to fight mobs of boys. Your tool is list tailoring. Everyone else needs to be able to(in one list) fight eldar, knights, or ork mobs. You get to set aside an amount of points and say this is what I need to deal with what ever threat. Maybe you need flamers to deal with all the nasty negative hit mods. Or a fiend to rush and lock up a tank so it can’t flee.

Sure you could build a list include everything and hope for the best. But how many times have you played some and wished you had a different unit, or spent to much points on anti hoard and know they are less effective vs that custody opponent. Can you say you play every game where every unit was at its best? On the flip side it makes it hard for your opponent because you could pull anything out of the wrap, he has to deal with not only what’s on the board but what is also on your model chart.

[Panzer]

Again, I'm aware of the theory. Stop explaining that to me. I just don't see it with what daemons have to offer.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm pretty sure sfPanzer understands your point and that telling him again and again isn't necessary.

 

Rather, his point is that, as tools, most daemon units are pretty interchangeable - sure, it gives you a toolbox, but that isn't that helpful when every tool you have is some sort of screwdriver.

 

So, yes, the units you want against knights are different than the ones you want against hordes - but what unit of daemons do you want against knights?  So, I think what sfPanzer was looking for is examples of what daemon units you would want in specific matchups or situations, and how summoning those units would be better than incorporating them in a detachment.

 

Given the rather drastic opportunity cost of summoning (loss of cps, loss of obsec, needing characters on the table that haven't moved, essentially getting a unit of random power (as it depends on your summoning roll), potentially killing your own characters, and your new units unlikely to make a charge... all that makes for a hard sell.

 

Not saying that it can't work, just that its tough to get it to work.  Certainly, I don't see it working for mono-god lists, which is what I am (and I suspect sfPanzer is as well) wanting to run.

 

- Ninja'd

[Brother Crimson]

Again, I'm aware of the theory. Stop explaining that to me. I just don't see it with what daemons have to offer.

I was not sold either until I tried to set aside some points in my tzeench. I didn’t even have to change my list that much to make some space.

 

These point can be used to:

1- Split horrors I start on the table to keep board presence.

2- Summon Flamers or more pinks for anti-horde

3-Summon Exalted flamers for heavies

 

This way I have 3 options to choose that is normally quite straightforward. Do I need anti infantry, anti tank or to keep the board ?

 

I feel doing like The LVO list with 650 point of summoning might be too extreme but a ~150-300 points toolbox is cool.

[Furnace Lord]

Do Heralds buff the strength of Heretic Astartes units with the Daemon keyword and compatible Mark? Does this stack with the Greater Possessed buff? I'm just curious about dropping in Heralds to buff daemon engines and such.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yes, they would - its only the daemon stratagems that are limited to Codex: Chaos Daemons units - all other instance of the keyword DAEMON does not require that it be from the Daemon codex.

 

And yes, they should stack.

[Kilofix]

I know John personally - anything specific you want me to ask him?

[Khornestar]

If the rumors are true, then the new skull altar can be summoned. Could screw with psykers and buff nearby daemons of Khorne. 

[Spear of Achilles]

I played an past adepticon past champ using Sons with Ahriman on disc, Lord, lotta pink horrors with tzaangor bomb/more tzaangors,  with a disloyal 32 renegade guard cheap lords hiding in ruins for unmarked summoning and cheap troop bodies..a patrol of chaos khorne prince and x30 bloodletters in a  bomb, he had lots of pts to bring in multiple flamer units for their 12" flamer guns buffed by flickering fire. He also had a huge tray on daemons on a cart to bring whatever he needed.

 

There would be a guy where the pink dice is behind the wall not moving all game, just to summon...likewise across the other map side out of sight was a second guard commander

 

 

The cheapness of Cycle of Slaughter meant those tzaangors had an easy time piling in twice and wrapping a lone guardsmen on their second move... they onbly need to pay 2 CP for this when other armies pay 3 is beyond me, but it is what it is

 

You can see how taking a podge of nurglings to infiltrate in stops you from killing his deepstrike footprint. Granted, I ended up going second, or those vultures would have ripped his tzaangores apart while my guard expanded out to kill the bloodletter bomb...but with ITC blocking level 1, its easy to keep them from getting shot.