Gameply perceptions of the Mechanicum

[LukeTheButcher]

Hello All,

 

The question of 'why do people think the Mechanicum are overpowered' cropped up on another thread. I wanted to respond but thought a fresh thread may be a better place to continue the discussion.

 

So, why do people think that the Mechanicum are powerful (I will try to avoid declairing them as overpowered as I have a slightly positive win ratio...). It has been mentioned by others on the previous thread that it could be Monsterous Creatures, or the wealth of options makign them incredibly versitile. I think they are both factors to making the Mech a very tough fight. But I think there are other factors at play too. 

 

To my way if thinkign; The game is designed (and I am taking libereities here with the interpretation) for Marine vs Marine. A T4, 1W +3 save is the standard and everything is geared around coming in under/over that mark. So as a result, the Mech will always be compared to that standard.

Except...  The Mech have many units that are greater than T4, have multiple Wds and carry back up Inv saves to an armour save. 

Ok, they need to be different....

 

Except that, the standard bolter is S4, with barley any AP. And again, it seems that the standard Mech weapons are all better than that. The unfortunate side effect is that standard Mech guns are very capable of killing Astartes, but not vice versa.

 

And, there is a law of diminishing returns. In a squad of 10 marines, losing 3 men drops firepower down by a whooping 30%. Losing 3 wds off of a four wd Mech robot loses it nothing. A sliding scale vs a stepped scale. 

 

And it also carries over to vehicles too. A vehicle (non super-heavy) can (and in my experience often does) blow up on the first shot. A Las cannon to a tank (even my poor AV14 raiders :-( ) is a threat, whereas to the Mech robot, its a stinging cut but on it goes. So Vehicles vs Monstrous Creatures again seems to favour the Mech. And when the Mech do have a genuine vehicle, its just straight up better than its Marine equivalent (I think its the Criox thingy that outshines a Landraider in every way but is cheaper??).

 

And then, the Mech get the cyberturgy that can just make all their 'perceived to be better stuff' even better, or heal it back up, ext. 

 

I recently ran a 15 man squad of Grey Slayers, kitted up with power weapons away from a Mech unit. Because it had a higher initiative and a swarm of attacks at AP3. They had multiple wds and an Inv save. The higher than 4 toughness meant I couldn't instant Death anything, so I was only going to get wiped out in that fight. Of yes, the Mech are also fearless (or immune to psychology or something, being robots) so even if I had been winning, they would be locked in combat and I would have to kill every single thing the hard way.

 - Please note, I don't know all the Mech rules, so this may be exaggeration to a small degree, but not by much.

 

So, in summary, I see Mech as 'better' than marines. They are more survivable (T, Wds, Saves, Insta-death immunity) and dish out more damage. Their vehicles are just plain better than marine equivalents and their Monstrous Creatures trump most vehicles. They are generally more immune to psychology and have tricks to enhance their inherent strengths.

 

However, all this is costed in their price for list building and generally includes a low model count that makes focusing fire and systematically removing threats easier and holding objectives harder. 

 

So while I can easily understand the perception that Mech is powerful, I must confess I don't believe it is over powered.

 

Happy to hear others thoughts and gameplay experiences.

 

 

Luke 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brother Styphus]

They seem like a tough nut to crack, with tons of fun units that usually have a weakness, but require tailoring to exploit those weaknesses.

 

I'm a but bummed I haven't had a chance to really Duke it out with a full army yet, as my DA terranic greatswords are apparently kryptonite to them. This is funny, as this weapon normally sucks in a game where anything that isn't ap2 is trash.

 

I've gone up against a squad of vorax though. With Molecular Acid it became a "damned if you do, damned if you don't " scenario, where you either fire mode gets countered by sometimes ignoring armor a.d the rerolling successful poison wounds, or hoping you get enough wounds with standard fire. In the end it came down to my contemptor locking them up in combat, preventing them from shooting a million shots, or striking a million times in melee against my troops. Their existence on the field wasn't a keystone of my opponent's list, but I had to actively work to counter them before they tore my list up.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm probably going to repeat a few things from the other threads but here we go.

 

Like any non marine list, theres going to be acclimatization in terms of list building. But even once you get used to the change, you can still get steam rolled by a variation you weren't expecting. I personally have 10k worth of points of mechanicum; my buddies can't list build just knowing my army. I can present a wall of armour with triaros and krios and artillery tanks, or mass of MCs with thanatars castellax and vorax, or have extremely durable units in the thallax and ursurax. All supported 60 fearless fnp 4+ save guys that cost nothing.

 

Mechanicum have the most flexibility for list building and unit roles out of any of the armies; you get anchor units and screens, speedy objective grabbers, hammer units, armour, monsters, support characters. Everything. All while also having a very respectable damage output on their units. A blob of thralls will grind out space marines that aren't rocking mauls to fists; ferrox thallax can take out backline units and vehicles with ease.

 

So the tldr is:

1. New stuff to adapt to

2. High risk guessing game of what to counter

3. Tech thralls are blatantly undercosted

[Noserenda]

Tbh since the nerfs to Cybernetica i dont think its as true any more though yeah, 7th does love monstrous creatures and they play very differently to Marines.

That said theyve been far from uncommon, i remember one ToS event i fought nothing but mechanicum all weekend with my Iron Warriors (zzz) so im not sure unfamiliarity is really a reason (YMMV). 

I use my Tech thralls offensively but i can certainly see the appeal of keeping them minimal for objective camping.

[N1SB]

Hi, I almost exclusively played 30k during 40k's 7th ed period, but drifted away since 8th ed.  I played mostly Mechanicum.  This has given me time to reflect, to form an objective view because I now have some distance away.  And I've been thinking about this since that time.  Thus, it's interesting that my overall understanding at this time is almost the same as yours:

 

 

To my way if thinkign; The game is designed (and I am taking libereities here with the interpretation) for Marine vs Marine.

 

My thinking: in a game designed for Marine vs. Marine, Mechanicum is deliberately the anti-Marine.

 

By anti-Marine, what I mean is that not only are Mechanicum different, but they almost seem to deliberately be a hard-counter to Marines.  We have Torrent template weapons that ignore 3+ armour and wound on a 2+, specifically designed to wipe out Legionnaire squads en masse.  Marines may have tanks, but we have custom vehicles that are so similar but more points effective, to the point that we called ours El Cheapo Land Raiders and El Cheapo Vindicators.  Those were just stuff I've personally used, and that doesn't even include the Monstrous Creatures and Fearless FNP Tech Thralls yet (particularly the latter, that stuff is awesome).

 

We have our own limitations, IMHO, but reading what a more experienced Mechanicum player said here:

 

So the tldr is:
1. New stuff to adapt to
2. High risk guessing game of what to counter
3. Tech thralls are blatantly undercosted

 

This was a bit of an epiphany because I know exactly what Brother SkimaskMohawk is saying, but mainly because I myself played Mechanicum.  The Legions are beautifully intuitive even if I never faced that specific one before; I can tell who has a 3+ save, who has the 2+/invuln saves, which guys are the fancy Legion-specific unit, who's the Primarch I gotta avoid.  But even if I played against another Mechanicum player, I'd have to ask "so what's that unit's statline again?  Does it have that special rule I forgot?"  It's like we're not just from a different world, but we break the laws of physics wherever we go.

 

There's potentially a 30k resurgence in my local meta and this was an excellent thread to keep in mind.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Cybernetica sucks, theres no doubt about it. But flooding the board with tough models (and choices) doesn't suck. Do they shoot the castellax, or the krios, or the triaros with a bunch of super annoying myrmidons, or the thanatars?

 

And for the tech thralls, they work well as objective campers but more of a midfield one; they can just control the board and be really stupid to deal with. Backfield pure campers you can make them cheaper and take less squads of them though.

 

I've even ran a gimmick list with the guys that give them 4+ fnp, and recycle on a 5+. It's extremely unfun, even more so now without phophex to wipe them out 

[Chaeron]

I think I’d echo that whilst this may be a perception, there are distinct drawbacks - particularly relating to scoring units (even Thralls can be easily killed, if high in volume!) - so the Mechanicum player often can’t rely on those VPs for objectives in those sorts of missions. From my experience on both sides, whilst they might be more adept at Marine killing, very few armies are solely marines - and they are certainly in the minority (generally, fulfilling compulsory roles only), and whilst Mech lists tend to at least offer versatility towards most different types of lists, it still requires target priority and picking battles - because they mostly aren’t as effective in combat (upgrades dependent).

 

I think they’re really fun to play with and against - such as through the build dynamics as others have suggested and because of their relative diversity. I can equally see the perception of difficulty if it’s an army that isn’t an evident hard counter too or is a stylistically poor matchup. I’m liking seeing more diverse Mechanicum builds (Reductor etc.!) for the variety and visual aesthetic - and hopefully, more of these will help to reinforce their situational weaknesses (and strengths), from a perception point of view, towards their lists on the whole.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What kills thralls easily? Medusas? Typhon? Scorpii? Premium removal shooting at 125 points of dudes, who in most cases won't kill off the unit. And they didn't shoot at high priority damage dealing units.

 

The perception that mechanicum are weak in combat is usually what leads to the most frustration. Revenant pure thought thralls will grind out all but the most elite marine units, ferrox thallax chop stuff up, destroyers have power fists and great toughness, their MCs all excel in combat by dint of their high toughness and save, while having ap 2 attacks. The archmagos itself easily outduels marine characters. The only things you should be concerned about in combat are secutors, barrage thanatars and tanks. Maybe your destructor thallax.

[Rabidbunneh]

Edit: Sorry this is a it rambling and disjointed, I'm writing this at work.

 

I think that was my post that you read, good to know it's opened up a wider discussion.

 

I play Cybernetica, so I may be a bit biased, so here goes...

 

They aren't symmetrical compared to most matchups. Down my local club, games normally turn into whose terminators and hero in a Spartan kill the other terminators and hero in a Spartan, then objectives make up most of the rest of the points. Cybernetica plays differently to the point it's almost like a different game.

 

Having a 2 man unit of Castellax that can threaten any non flareshielded tank, that can shrug off most small weapons fire, beat most non dedicated squads in melee and even take a chunk out of a proper melee unit as a troops choice is a bit off putting. Then you have 3 of them, it's a lot to deal with, by the time those units are dead, most of the main units in a marine army are dead or so damaged they can't do much else, at which point you are resigned to a slow roll. It feels like if your target priority is off, you do nothing.

 

While i understand the issues with thralls, they are chump level infantry that die as easily as marines, anti infantry isn't the issue though, its the multiple threat factor in Mechanicum.

 

There are good counters in marine lists, Vindicators get around Thallax and ursarax main advantage, t5 and multi wound, tyrant siege, the Ultramarine knockoff ones, the arcus and even the Scorpius are pretty brutal against Cybernetica as you can force more wounds onto robots than can be repaired/cycled to the back of the squad for later.

 

You need to focus down one squad at a time, even if it takes your whole army shooting to do so. Ask what does what and prioritise what needs to die first. Vultarax are brutal anti tank, I send mine after Spartans as I can't let Terminators charge my robots as a 10 man squad with a Praetor will tear a chunk out of my army, so if your army relies on them as a delivery method, try holding back and focusing on their lascannons to chip wounds off squads while you can. Alternatively play hellagressively, at ToS I played against a Space Wolf player that ran mass Grey Slayers in Land raiders, turn 1 saw him charge my left flank before turn 2 saw my whole army engaged, I didn't have the room to attack or get where I needed to be.

 

My list is designed around having different units for different tasks,1 lone darkfire Castellax, 2 2 man Darkfire units, 1 3 man power blade/mauler unit, 1 Thanatar Cynis, 1 2 man Arlatax squad, 1 2 man Domitar squad and 1 Vultarax. That's a lot of stuff to deal with before you even think about the two 3 man Thallax squads. It's a tough cookie to crack, but I have lost using it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Against the big artillery pieces they do die as easily as marines, but for a fraction of the cost. 20 upgraded thralls are 125; 20 unupgraded tacs are 225 and guess which are fearless.

 

The thing with vindicators and tyrants is that they're useless against thanatars and flare shielded tanks. The arcus sucks against everything but vorax. Now you have cybernetica, which really limits how you list build, but against a taghmata or reductor list that has an even mix of everything, they kind of suck against the heavier things.

 

The space wolf list you faced seems really interesting.

[Rabidbunneh]

Against the big artillery pieces they do die as easily as marines, but for a fraction of the cost. 20 upgraded thralls are 125; 20 unupgraded tacs are 225 and guess which are fearless.

 

The thing with vindicators and tyrants is that they're useless against thanatars and flare shielded tanks. The arcus sucks against everything but vorax. Now you have cybernetica, which really limits how you list build, but against a taghmata or reductor list that has an even mix of everything, they kind of suck against the heavier things.

 

The space wolf list you faced seems really interesting.

 

Yeah it was a pretty brutal list. The Arcus genuinely terrifies me, it shreds Castellax chassis robots easily, I had my friend's whole 3k army kill one Domitar while his Arcus shredded one effortlessly, 8 S8 AP3 shots get round the way Cybernetica units can tank damage.

[Brofist]

The game has evolved over the years, but at least from my experience, many issues with Mechaniucm come from the army not being easy to understand. Like Rabidbunneh is saying, it’s not a symmetrical matchup: different rules, different ways they play, different strengths and weaknesses. Some lists tailored to fight marines won’t do well against Ad Mech. If you’re running something more generalist, or expect Ad Mech in your meta, then you’ll probably have the right tools to fight them. There are obvious outlier units, but every army list has those.

 

The perception that mechanicum are weak in combat is usually what leads to the most frustration. Revenant pure thought thralls will grind out all but the most elite marine units, ferrox thallax chop stuff up, destroyers have power fists and great toughness, their MCs all excel in combat by dint of their high toughness and save, while having ap 2 attacks. The archmagos itself easily outduels marine characters. The only things you should be concerned about in combat are secutors, barrage thanatars and tanks. Maybe your destructor thallax.

I don't share your experience of MCs, Thallax, and Archmagi being anything but average in combat. Lower initiative, lower number of attacks, and lower WS help keep admech pretty grounded against specialists. When going up against your non-specialist units, it turns into a slog, but slamming 20 tactical into 20 thralls is about the same as 20 tacticals grinding it out against 20 tacticals.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The game has evolved over the years, but at least from my experience, many issues with Mechaniucm come from the army not being easy to understand. Like Rabidbunneh is saying, it’s not a symmetrical matchup: different rules, different ways they play, different strengths and weaknesses. Some lists tailored to fight marines won’t do well against Ad Mech. If you’re running something more generalist, or expect Ad Mech in your meta, then you’ll probably have the right tools to fight them. There are obvious outlier units, but every army list has those.

 

The perception that mechanicum are weak in combat is usually what leads to the most frustration. Revenant pure thought thralls will grind out all but the most elite marine units, ferrox thallax chop stuff up, destroyers have power fists and great toughness, their MCs all excel in combat by dint of their high toughness and save, while having ap 2 attacks. The archmagos itself easily outduels marine characters. The only things you should be concerned about in combat are secutors, barrage thanatars and tanks. Maybe your destructor thallax.

I don't share your experience of MCs, Thallax, and Archmagi being anything but average in combat. Lower initiative, lower number of attacks, and lower WS help keep admech pretty grounded against specialists. When going up against your non-specialist units, it turns into a slog, but slamming 20 tactical into 20 thralls is about the same as 20 tacticals grinding it out against 20 tacticals.

 

 

Ferrox thallax with chainblades on the charge have a very respectable 4 str 7 rending attacks. Malagra magos with melee set up gets 5 fist or paragon blade attacks and another 2 from the array, challenge for a nice preferred enemy as well. And the thralls do grind about as well as 20 tacs, but are fearless and almost half the cost. And again, people don't expect them to be perfectly fine in combat, they think they're going to be weak and easy to roll

[Ficinus]

Isn't the answer to thralls just volkite calivers or, failing that, assault cannons (of whichever pattern) and heavy bolters? I mean, it's still a lot to chew threw and with heavy bolters they still get feel no pain, but unless someone is taking ninety of them, it should be manageable.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Cover and fnp do a lot of mitigation. And I have 40 that never leave my list, because that dual kheres has to dedicate two perfect rounds of shooting at a unit in the open to kill it; averages 3 in the open and drops to an abysmal 5 turns if it's behind cover. We don't even want to think about conqueror of cities giving them a 3+ (we'll be generous and say you'd need all 7 turns). So going with average in the open, you've spent three shooting phases gunning down an entire unit of my thralls; using 540 points to deal with 125. Volkites calivers do an average of (a generous) 7 wounds post deflagrate from a full unit of 10, which is 225 minimum. So 675 points to deal with 125; culverins are cheaper for 5 for the same result. Heavy bolters are a joke of cover is involved; 235 for a squad of 10 that kills 5 a volley.

 

And, as I've long windedly said again, that very good shooting unit isn't shooting anything that does damage in return.

 

Thralls are too too cheap. They shouldn't be 125 for the most defensively upgraded, max unit size that never worries about morale. They force a split in focus away from the heavy infantry, heavy monsters and flare shielded tanks, and one that does take a serious commitment at that.

 

This post does help show that disconnect of "what do I bring to deal with them". The most efficient guess wasn't your first, and suffers from the side effect of being the easiest type of model for mechanicum to kill.

 

Now I'm going to wrap my general tangents about tech thralls and split target priority and list building with a caveat. If your friends/opponents only have say 3000-3500 like most normal people, then you will for sure be able to make effective lists and strategies against their collection. It's only really when it gets expansive (like my own) that it can really come down to a game of guess work and the variety of different unit types get overwhelming.

[Ficinus]

I said calivers, but I meant culverins, since they ignore fnp. Also, I forgot that culverins were only AP5.

 

A kheres in the open is hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, ignoring armour and fnp. Yeah, it isn't super points efficient, but other than thallax there are rarely good targets for a kheres in a Mechanicum list (unless you're flanking or getting rear armour on a tank). It also isn't really points inefficient either. If over five turns, a dual kheres contemptor mortis can shoot down 30 thralls, it has made back its points. An average round of shooting in the open should see about 8-9 dead, so that seems very plausible.

 

The issue with cover is, if the thralls are hugging cover all game, their movement is going to be very limited. Make sure you have clear fire lanes so they have to stay planted in those ruins or that forest or else they die.

 

Another good option is World Eaters tactical or Blackshields marauder squads. Just paint up an allied force with some dudes with chainaxes and butcher some thralls. Or better yet, a vet squad with a healthy helping of power mauls. Just make sure you don't kill them in one round of fighting.

 

Yeah, they're probably undercosted, but there are ways to deal with them. Dual kheres dreads, autocannon/heavy bolter predators, volkite culverin squads, and power mauls and chainaxes are all good tools.

[Excessus]

Different tools for different targets. Personally I can't remember the last time I actually shot at Castellaxes, they can't score, they are slow and have a sub-par damage output for their price. I usually just ignore them...or send a tactical squad in to hold them up while I mop up the rest of the list. Alpharius makes short work of them though, which is nice... :)

[Charlo]

Problems with robots Astartes? Why don't you just use your: 

 

FORBIDDEN ADRATHIC DEATH LASERS.

 

Oh wait, you can't!

 

 

BUUUUT in all seriousness, Mechanicum are tough as all hell to crack - even for Talons of the Emperor. I played against a friends army at Blood and Glory last year that had:

• 60ish Thralls with a 3+ FNP (yes it's possible RAW)
• 4 Krios Venators
• 5 Mauler Castellax
• Knight Acheron
• 2 Vulturax
• Probably more I'm forgetting...

It was utterly savage. I didn't have a hope in hell at reaching any of the objectives as I slowly ground through fearless thralls that felt endless, even to the might of the 10,000 and Sisterhood. Any armour was evaporated instantly (including the Telemon) and even my Hetaeron & Tribune fell to weight of fire etc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@ficinus your definition of making points back varies greatly from mine. 180 points shooting 5 times to make back 180 points to me is a poor investment. Especially since that unit can chew up elite marine units, medium vehicles, myrmidons and thallax and the like to easily recoup.

 

The cover thing is a lot more subjective. The boards I play on feature a lot of impassible and los blocking to force tactical manoeuvring and decision making, so cover is a bit more available compared to shooting galleries

 

Castellax put out enough for 140 each. Darkfires threaten every vehicle outside flare shield arcs and work on all heavy infantry; bs 5 is reliable and it docks cover. They're no laser vindi or krios venator, but they're way more durable than any other pointed vehicle. And can be a threat in melee

[Rabidbunneh]

BUUUUT in all seriousness, Mechanicum are tough as all hell to crack - even for Talons of the Emperor. I played against a friends army at Blood and Glory last year that had:

• 60ish Thralls with a 3+ FNP (yes it's possible RAW)
• 4 Krios Venators
• 5 Mauler Castellax
• Knight Acheron
• 2 Vulturax
• Probably more I'm forgetting...

It was utterly savage. I didn't have a hope in hell at reaching any of the objectives as I slowly ground through fearless thralls that felt endless, even to the might of the 10,000 and Sisterhood. Any armour was evaporated instantly (including the Telemon) and even my Hetaeron & Tribune fell to weight of fire etc.

I think it was 40 Thralls, I played at Blood and Glory that weekend as well (I think my Cybernetica army was next to your army when you played Dread heavy Alpha Legion :D), it was brutal but I did manage to out robot it.

[Charlo]

 

BUUUUT in all seriousness, Mechanicum are tough as all hell to crack - even for Talons of the Emperor. I played against a friends army at Blood and Glory last year that had:

• 60ish Thralls with a 3+ FNP (yes it's possible RAW)
• 4 Krios Venators
• 5 Mauler Castellax
• Knight Acheron
• 2 Vulturax
• Probably more I'm forgetting...

It was utterly savage. I didn't have a hope in hell at reaching any of the objectives as I slowly ground through fearless thralls that felt endless, even to the might of the 10,000 and Sisterhood. Any armour was evaporated instantly (including the Telemon) and even my Hetaeron & Tribune fell to weight of fire etc.

I think it was 40 Thralls, I played at Blood and Glory that weekend as well (I think my Cybernetica army was next to your army when you played Dread heavy Alpha Legion ), it was brutal but I did manage to out robot it.

 

Oh yeee, forgot you played Michael! Must've been savage. Sadly I didn't play AL Dreads (either of them!?) but we were near the top end when I fought Pete's White Scars I think.