All the Codexes are out. Who won?

[kombatwombat]

With the release of the Genestealer Cult and the beta rules for Sisters, all the major Codexes are done for 8th Edition. So, how would you rank them from a competitive standpoint? Which books are strongest and which are weakest?

 

This is strictly from a single-Codex perspective, not soup. Including soup would make this utterly impossible, so for the purposes of this question use only a single Codex. Include ForgeWorld units as part of their most relevant Codex - so the Custodes FW units are part of the Custodes Codex, and FW Greater Daemons are part of the Chaos Daemons but not Chaos Space Marines, for example. Titan Legions are their own Codex, but they’re hard locked as the bottom of the list by how abysmal they are.

 

This is probably easiest to treat as groupings or tiers - aim to break the Codexes into 4-5 or so tiers of strength rather than quibbling over whether Eldar or Dark Eldar are stronger.

 

The key question is ‘if you build the most competitive army you could, but your opponent could veto one unit, how strong would your army be?’ So for example you could build a gnarly GK list, but your opponent could veto Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight as a unit, you couldn’t build a strong list, so the GK Codex is trash.

 

In order of release, the Codexes are:

 

Space Marines

Chaos Space Marines

Grey Knights

Death Guard

Adeptus Mechanicus

Imperial Guard

Eldar

Tyranids

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

Chaos Daemons

Adeptus Custodes

Thousand Sons

Tau

Necrons

Dark Eldar

Deathwatch

Harlequins

Imperial Knights

Space Wolves

Orks

Sisters of Battle (Beta)

Genestealer Cults

[chapter master 454]

So....can we have listed tiers and have at the bottom "Grey Knight Tier"!

 

but seriously...Eldar come out like bosses (craftworld) from what I know. I mean, when don't they. Knights rocking hard still, Marines are getting there along with Tau thanks to chapter approved and for the rest can't really say in my opinion.

 

Top Tier:

Eldar

 

Mid Tier:

Space Marines

Tau

 

Low Tier:

-don't know-

 

Grey Knight Tier:

Grey Knights

[kombatwombat]

Tiers is a good way to do it. You’d be splitting hairs between Guard and Eldar for example, but there’s no arguing that AdMech could compete with either of them.

[Indefragable]

There's so many permutations of how to look at this, my mind hurts on a Saturday night.

 

Aka are we talking strictly LVO-style performance? Aka take the "best" (cheesiest) possibly combinations of units, relics, Strategems, etc... optimize the crap out of them, and then dial to 11?

 

Or are we talking the greatest # of possibilities a book presents? Aka a book could have one really really really really good build, but sucks otherwise while another book could have all sorts of cool tools and builds that do pretty good, but not a single one that is a single go-to clear cut mathammer victor.

[ONDIG]

Templars

Ravenguard

Deathwatch

In that order!

[Biscuittzz]

If strategems didn't exist I think a lot of armies would be quite close together. The fact that multiple armies go from top/mid tier to mid-low/low tier if you were to just remove strategems entirely shows that the units themselves and associated points aren't inherently imbalanced. Addition of strategems into the mix is what causes 90% of the issues.

 

Grey Knights are undoubtedly bottom of the pile but our units, while not overly strong, aren't weak. It's just that GW were (rightfully) incredibly cautious with the implementation and costing of strategems at the beginning of codex releases for 8th edition. As such Grey Knights and others such as SM and CSM have strategems that give lacklustre effects for overinflated costs. Take the GKs 2 cp psybolt ammunition strategem that only affects a single unit for example.

 

It looks like after the Death Guard codex and beginning with Ad Mech and Guard they really let loose on the abilities that could be inferred through strategems. Not only through power of the abilities but also through uniqueness and fluffiness. Look at the GK and CSM strats and half of them are copy and pastes of the SM codex.

[toaae]

There's so many permutations of how to look at this, my mind hurts on a Saturday night.

 

Aka are we talking strictly LVO-style performance? Aka take the "best" (cheesiest) possibly combinations of units, relics, Strategems, etc... optimize the crap out of them, and then dial to 11?

 

Or are we talking the greatest # of possibilities a book presents? Aka a book could have one really really really really good build, but sucks otherwise while another book could have all sorts of cool tools and builds that do pretty good, but not a single one that is a single go-to clear cut mathammer victor.

I like tier threads on forums, and I think the best ones are when the poster explains their criteria. Since it would be impossible to reach an objective consensus on the standards to use, let alone the actual placements of the codices, I think that is the best way to go about it.

[shanewatts]

Still waiting on that Khorne Daemonkin codex, haha.

[Gederas]

Still waiting on that Khorne Daemonkin codex, haha.

Same. Or a World Eaters codex.

 

Either one really

[CaptainMarsh]

Sisters are a beta; it is hard to really judge them when they could undergo dramatic changes and without the new units/models that are likely. 

[Trevak Dal]

Grey knight power armored units should all have +1 attack and leadership (since they aren't junior to Terminator armored troops, they are the same guys and the extra attack is from veterancy supposedly and god emperor knows we pay through the ear for each guy) and really should be allowed to deepstrike everything (command points for dreds) and psybolt ammo should be built into all gk units.

[Beams]

So....can we have listed tiers and have at the bottom "Grey Knight Tier"!

 

but seriously...Eldar come out like bosses (craftworld) from what I know. I mean, when don't they. Knights rocking hard still, Marines are getting there along with Tau thanks to chapter approved and for the rest can't really say in my opinion.

 

Top Tier:

Eldar

 

Mid Tier:

Space Marines

Tau

 

Low Tier:

-don't know-

 

Grey Knight Tier:

Grey Knights

Imperial Knights top tier, Sisters of Battle Low Tier, Orks Mid Tier?

 

but really, the difference between tiers this edition is a lot slimmer than it was in 7th, so it's a lot harder to do it accurately. It's not like we can be like "Iron Hands has a character who physically cant die unless targeted by multiple D weapons, so if you don't have that your bottom tier" this edition.

[toaae]

Ok, I'll have a go. My criteria is a mixture of stand-alone and allies; I'll mention both where relevant. For the most part, a codex that allies well will be lower than a codex that stands on its own. It should go without saying that this is just my opinion, and is obviously very biased and shaped by my personal experiences, but I'm sure someone is going to really argue that I'm wrong. Here we go:


S Tier - Or, the Ynnari double-team dream force
 

Dark Eldar

Craftworlds - These two hold the tip-top because they are the core that arm Ynnari, an army type that lacks the sheer number of options the other two mega-factions offer, but never fails to be represented at top levels. Also, both are good goods when run solo, a nod I'm giving to Dark Eldar over their cousins for the top spot. You could probably randomly throw units into a list and still outperform the lowest tier books at their best. Solid units with solid stratagems and the most powerful ability easily soup'd in, they get the share the top.

 

 

A Tier - Or, So very good, just not necessarily on their own

 

Imperial Knights - Codex: Castellan is obviously the core that drives this books power, being super over-represented in every event and single-handily defining the meta around the world. But there are plenty of "good" options in the book, and only the lack of scoring bodies and easily accessible CP keeps this from the S tier. I still almost put it up there, just cause Codex: Castellan is soooo good, but since this is a tier list of codices, I'm content to have them one step down.

 

Astra Militarum - As a foil to the above, IG are this high not just because of their own inherent power, but because it's almost impossible to make a decent list that has the Imperium keyword without at least 32 of these angry boys showing up in it. A pure list of any other Imperium faction will still be served, 99% of the time, by taking one detachment of these guys. But they aren't just fodder, and investing into more of the book has also paid off, as the recent LVO champion showed. The fact that a 100% IG army hasn't down well, always having something to dump the CP in, is the only reason I kept these guys from the top: their stratagems just aren't that good. Fortunately, you can always easily drop a Castellan and/or some Custodes or power-armored support in to use the oodles of points they give. They are omni-present for a good reason, and they will continue to be.

 

 

B Tier - Or, good ally armies or the best stand-alone factions

 

Orks - This is really my bias showing, but in my humble opinion, Orks are the perfect mono-codex faction. The stratagems are varied and powerful, with many different ones to make different lists off of. Their clan traits are the best in terms of offering options in the same book, though the meta really has settled on just 2 of them; I think that may change as the meta evolves and people get used to how fast orks are. In which case, the other clan traits are no joke. There are plenty of options, and while there is a defined meta-build, there's enough flexibility in even that list to really see variety. I have reasons to be disappointed with this book as an Ork collector, but as far as 8th edition goes, it doesn't get better for the non-Big-3-factions than this.

 

Thousand Sons - Mortal wounds are good, hordes are good. Guess what book does both exceptionally well, is part of the Big-3 factions, and even packs in loads of mobility? Yeah, the scions of Magnus (who definitely did a lot wrong). These guys are quietly been very good for most of the last year, and it is easy to see why. It's a shame the actual Thousand Sons units aren't that hot, but they aren't going to hold down the top of this book.

 

Custodes - The best non-IG, non-Knight Imperium faction. The fact that you can take 100% Custodes and have a shot at a high placing at an event is a pretty good argument for this ranking. They are excellent allies, too, so this is a full-package pick. The stuff from Forgeworld is also making this faction better, but I'll let you decide if they should be included, since this is a "codex" ranking. Regardless, this is where they belong, at the minimum.

 

Tyranids

Genestealer Cult - Who knows how GSC is going to perform with their new codex, but they were getting some good play with the index list, and the authorities I trust are pretty sure the new book is at least a solid improvement. So these two go together because I don't know how to separate them. They ally together, and they can both function alone, but they are at their best as a soup. I suppose the Brood Brothers makes GSC the better option between the two codices, but in my mind, they are intrinsically tied together for now. They both feature loads of interesting units, good abilities and stratagems. These are fun books that still can compete.

 

Tau - I don't know if it's fair to put this one this high, since this is a codex ranking, and they only belong up here thanks to Chapter Approved and the Big FAQs (specifically, #2). But since there isn't really a world where you wouldn't be using those other publications, we'll just pretend that the codex as it is now is how it was released. Cause as of right now, this is a strong book. Like Orks, it has to stand on its own. And it does, not reaching the upper echelons of Ynnari and Imperium soup, but still in a place most other solo-books would love to be in. I think the variety is great and the book is fun, and all told, that's why it gets to be here.

 

Deathwatch

Death Guard - These two aren't linked, but my thoughts about them are similar: they have loads of fun, characterful abilities, they can be played mono-faction, but they shine as allies. Deathwatch a little more as allies, Death Guard a little more mono. In a world without Ynnari or Imperium soup, I think these would be hugely popular mono-factions that perform admirably. In this world, they have their places and I didn't want to move them down. They are the last ones into my B tier.

 

 

C Tier - Or, a) books that aren't bad on their own, but don't ally well. Or b)books that ally well, but aren't good on their own

 

Harlequins

Chaos Daemons

Adeptus Mechanicus

Chaos Space Marines

Sisters of Battle *

Blood Angels

Dark Angels
 

At this point, I think things get both more muddled and clearer, paradoxically. Each of these books are wildly different, but they all have the same reason for being this low: They aren't as good as the ones above, for either allying or running pure. Harlequins have a role in many Ynnari lists, but I think you could replace them with other eldar stuff and not skip a beat. Both types of Chaos books provide loads of tools that can make the Chaos super-faction powerful, but are better served as tool boxes than factions in their own right. AdMech can ally cheap as a replacement for the loyal 32, can bring interesting tools as a bigger ally, and can put a solid mono-faction force on the table, but in each regard, I think they are outshown by a different codex (this one I could be convinced to make higher). The Angels of Death can be made solid allies, but often Deathwatch or Custodes will do the job better, and mono-faction of either isn't especially good (note, pre-big FAQs, I would have had BA as A tier). As a note*, I can't really say much on the beta Sisters. I feel they are ok allies, but this ranking is a very ignorant one.

D Tier - Or, books that aren't very good allies and don't do well on their own

Space Marines

Space Wolves

Necrons

 

These books are similar to the above paragraph, but in a more dire state. The two Marine books are just out-done by any other Imperium codex, though at least Guilliman-based builds gives that book some argument for being a higher tier. And Necrons have some cool stuff, but they just don't have enough to justify the mono-faction codex. They lack the variety of tools both Orks and Tau have.

E Tier - Or, the one you all knew was coming

 

Grey Knights - I have nothing to say. I'm sorry I have nothing to say.



Well, that turned out to be longer than I expected. I promise I don't hold my own opinion in such high regard. I just got carried a way a little.
 

[Tordeck]

Kill Team

[Panzer]

Ok, I'll have a go. My criteria is a mixture of stand-alone and allies; I'll mention both where relevant. For the most part, a codex that allies well will be lower than a codex that stands on its own. It should go without saying that this is just my opinion, and is obviously very biased and shaped by my personal experiences, but I'm sure someone is going to really argue that I'm wrong. Here we go:

 

 

S Tier - Or, the Ynnari double-team dream force

 

Dark Eldar

Craftworlds - These two hold the tip-top because they are the core that arm Ynnari, an army type that lacks the sheer number of options the other two mega-factions offer, but never fails to be represented at top levels. Also, both are good goods when run solo, a nod I'm giving to Dark Eldar over their cousins for the top spot. You could probably randomly throw units into a list and still outperform the lowest tier books at their best. Solid units with solid stratagems and the most powerful ability easily soup'd in, they get the share the top.

 

 

A Tier - Or, So very good, just not necessarily on their own

 

Imperial Knights - Codex: Castellan is obviously the core that drives this books power, being super over-represented in every event and single-handily defining the meta around the world. But there are plenty of "good" options in the book, and only the lack of scoring bodies and easily accessible CP keeps this from the S tier. I still almost put it up there, just cause Codex: Castellan is soooo good, but since this is a tier list of codices, I'm content to have them one step down.

 

Astra Militarum - As a foil to the above, IG are this high not just because of their own inherent power, but because it's almost impossible to make a decent list that has the Imperium keyword without at least 32 of these angry boys showing up in it. A pure list of any other Imperium faction will still be served, 99% of the time, by taking one detachment of these guys. But they aren't just fodder, and investing into more of the book has also paid off, as the recent LVO champion showed. The fact that a 100% IG army hasn't down well, always having something to dump the CP in, is the only reason I kept these guys from the top: their stratagems just aren't that good. Fortunately, you can always easily drop a Castellan and/or some Custodes or power-armored support in to use the oodles of points they give. They are omni-present for a good reason, and they will continue to be.

 

 

B Tier - Or, good ally armies or the best stand-alone factions

 

Orks - This is really my bias showing, but in my humble opinion, Orks are the perfect mono-codex faction. The stratagems are varied and powerful, with many different ones to make different lists off of. Their clan traits are the best in terms of offering options in the same book, though the meta really has settled on just 2 of them; I think that may change as the meta evolves and people get used to how fast orks are. In which case, the other clan traits are no joke. There are plenty of options, and while there is a defined meta-build, there's enough flexibility in even that list to really see variety. I have reasons to be disappointed with this book as an Ork collector, but as far as 8th edition goes, it doesn't get better for the non-Big-3-factions than this.

 

Thousand Sons - Mortal wounds are good, hordes are good. Guess what book does both exceptionally well, is part of the Big-3 factions, and even packs in loads of mobility? Yeah, the scions of Magnus (who definitely did a lot wrong). These guys are quietly been very good for most of the last year, and it is easy to see why. It's a shame the actual Thousand Sons units aren't that hot, but they aren't going to hold down the top of this book.

 

Custodes - The best non-IG, non-Knight Imperium faction. The fact that you can take 100% Custodes and have a shot at a high placing at an event is a pretty good argument for this ranking. They are excellent allies, too, so this is a full-package pick. The stuff from Forgeworld is also making this faction better, but I'll let you decide if they should be included, since this is a "codex" ranking. Regardless, this is where they belong, at the minimum.

 

Tyranids

Genestealer Cult - Who knows how GSC is going to perform with their new codex, but they were getting some good play with the index list, and the authorities I trust are pretty sure the new book is at least a solid improvement. So these two go together because I don't know how to separate them. They ally together, and they can both function alone, but they are at their best as a soup. I suppose the Brood Brothers makes GSC the better option between the two codices, but in my mind, they are intrinsically tied together for now. They both feature loads of interesting units, good abilities and stratagems. These are fun books that still can compete.

 

Tau - I don't know if it's fair to put this one this high, since this is a codex ranking, and they only belong up here thanks to Chapter Approved and the Big FAQs (specifically, #2). But since there isn't really a world where you wouldn't be using those other publications, we'll just pretend that the codex as it is now is how it was released. Cause as of right now, this is a strong book. Like Orks, it has to stand on its own. And it does, not reaching the upper echelons of Ynnari and Imperium soup, but still in a place most other solo-books would love to be in. I think the variety is great and the book is fun, and all told, that's why it gets to be here.

 

Deathwatch

Death Guard - These two aren't linked, but my thoughts about them are similar: they have loads of fun, characterful abilities, they can be played mono-faction, but they shine as allies. Deathwatch a little more as allies, Death Guard a little more mono. In a world without Ynnari or Imperium soup, I think these would be hugely popular mono-factions that perform admirably. In this world, they have their places and I didn't want to move them down. They are the last ones into my B tier.

 

 

C Tier - Or, a) books that aren't bad on their own, but don't ally well. Or b)books that ally well, but aren't good on their own

 

Harlequins

Chaos Daemons

Adeptus Mechanicus

Chaos Space Marines

Sisters of Battle *

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

 

At this point, I think things get both more muddled and clearer, paradoxically. Each of these books are wildly different, but they all have the same reason for being this low: They aren't as good as the ones above, for either allying or running pure. Harlequins have a role in many Ynnari lists, but I think you could replace them with other eldar stuff and not skip a beat. Both types of Chaos books provide loads of tools that can make the Chaos super-faction powerful, but are better served as tool boxes than factions in their own right. AdMech can ally cheap as a replacement for the loyal 32, can bring interesting tools as a bigger ally, and can put a solid mono-faction force on the table, but in each regard, I think they are outshown by a different codex (this one I could be convinced to make higher). The Angels of Death can be made solid allies, but often Deathwatch or Custodes will do the job better, and mono-faction of either isn't especially good (note, pre-big FAQs, I would have had BA as A tier). As a note*, I can't really say much on the beta Sisters. I feel they are ok allies, but this ranking is a very ignorant one.

D Tier - Or, books that aren't very good allies and don't do well on their own

 

Space Marines

Space Wolves

Necrons

 

These books are similar to the above paragraph, but in a more dire state. The two Marine books are just out-done by any other Imperium codex, though at least Guilliman-based builds gives that book some argument for being a higher tier. And Necrons have some cool stuff, but they just don't have enough to justify the mono-faction codex. They lack the variety of tools both Orks and Tau have.

 

E Tier - Or, the one you all knew was coming

 

Grey Knights - I have nothing to say. I'm sorry I have nothing to say.

 

 

 

Well, that turned out to be longer than I expected. I promise I don't hold my own opinion in such high regard. I just got carried a way a little.

 

 

I agree with pretty much all of it, though I don't think I'd put AdMech below T'au to be honest. T'au have one really strong build (as long as the mission allows them to castle) but if you don't go for that the lists are on average weaker than the general AdMech lists I'd say.

 

That being said it really depends on the missions played as well. Knights don't do so well in missions where holding objectives is everything and tableing the opponent doesn't win you the game for example.

[Slasher956]

As a sisters player.... they are a beta so shouldn’t be in this list...if the release version is similar to the beta then they are in the GK tier....

[kombatwombat]

Outstanding write up Toaae, exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for with this thread. Also a very valid point that I should add criteria to the OP. I’ll post them here and amend the OP.

 

The basic criterion is what is the relative strength of most common armies built with a competitive intent. I’m also looking at a general cross-Codex strength, not an individual build that requires specific units. The key question is ‘if you build the most competitive army you could, but your opponent could veto one unit, how strong would your army be?’ So for example you could build a gnarly GK list, but your opponent could veto Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight as a unit, you couldn’t build a strong list, so the GK Codex is trash.

 

Also, consider ForgeWorld units as part of their given Codex.

[Bat33.1]

The answer is what Toaae said, he nailed it.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I really don't know if you can rate the codex on their own anymore. There just is no incentive to play with one codex, the second you make that choice you aren't trying to build a competitive list.

 

I tend to agree with people rating Eldar on the top, and think orks, guard, thousand sons, deathguard are just below them. But I don't see the point of trying to rate them.

[Joe]

Given that we're likely to get at least two to three more full codices before the end of the edition (Sisters (beta doesn't count), World Eaters, Emperor's Children), not to mention FAQ changes and Chapter Approved, I'd say this thread is jumping the gun a bit.

This would bear reflecting upon once 9E has dropped.

[WarriorFish]

Nobody wins for there is only eternal war

 

This is always going to be subjective so there's no right answer, but I think a broad spectrum is something most can agree on as far as current codices goes. What goes around usually comes around though, and I'd wager the vast majority of us collect armies not for their rules. Otherwise we'd all collect Eldar ;)

[Morticon]

I'll list mine as per my experience.  I'm leaving out the ones i've not had experience with! 

 

Ynarri

Craftworld

DE

AM

Knights

 

Would be my top 5.  Next would be:

 

Tau

Orks

Nids

Deathwatch (post CA)

Gully Ultra*

DeathGuard

 

Then:

 

Blood Angels

Space Marines

Grey Knights

Dark Angels

Wolves

Crons

Space Marines

[Burni]

You missed AdMech!

[Panzer]

You missed AdMech!

 

He said he's leaving the ones out he has no experience with lol

[Morticon]

yeh, not enough experience against them! Played them once in 7th, and then just smatterings here and there.