Librarian vs Watch Captain Vs Chaplain

[Danny Cyanide]

Hi guys,

 

I've never actually played a game in 8th, but I'm planning on starting playing soon. Those of you that do play, what are your thoughts on these 3 HQ options?

 

What are your favorite loadouts for then? Do you find the Librarian to be worth the additional points? Is the Chaplain all that useful if you don't have a unit geared up for CC over shooting?

[shandwen]

Like you hint at the Chaplin just doesn't fit DW very well. He wants to force cc when DW just wants to shoot.

The captain can be powerful when built for a specific purpose, but if there isnt a deep striking squad or similar than a watch master will completely outperform him (which I usually ran two watch masters as unlike chapter masters they are not limited to one).

The librarian is very useful. Smite is often a game changer, but again you have to build your force for him to be clutch. In many cases spending the points on regular guys can cause more damage than the librarian will, but as HQ tax goes he can be solid.

[Chris521]

Of of the 3, I'd say the captain is the most useful.  I would also give all of them either a jump pack or terminator armor so they can deep strike in.  With the new beta bolter rules, I've started running a terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts and a relic blade.  I've only played a few small games, but hes come up big. 

 

Funnily enough one of those times was against a chaplain and librarian.  My friend was using my librarian and chaplain (both with jump packs and storm bolters) in test game to buff up a kitted out Vanguard Veteran squad and I was using the Terminator Captain to buff two Veteran squads.  The Librarian gave the Vanguards +1 Strength, toughness, and attacks as well as a charge re roll while the Chaplain gave re-rolls to hit.  The Vanguards butchered the Veterans, but the captain was able to Heroically intervene.  I think seeing most of his boys die made him succumb to the Black rage because with the help of a fight twice stratagem he killed the Vanguards, the librarian, and the chaplain over the next two turns.

 

Obviously this anecdote required some really good rolling, but that Captain will likely be in many future lists.

[Syward]

I use a lot of plasma in my list, so I personally like to have the Captain. I haven't' used a Chaplain, and as cool as they are, I don't think I will since my army is all centered around shooting and not getting into CC.

 

I also use a Librarian, and the Smite power and the Might of Heroes has come in handy more than a few times, but I'd say my Captain has been more useful. I'll also be adding another Captain like @Chris521 said, using TDA & a SB w/Bane Bolts (I'm not sure if I'm going to use a relic blade or a TH yet though). I'm going to use him as my DS Captain w/my 2x "Interblaster" Fortis KTs and my Primaris Captain will sit back with the gun line units (TLLC+ML Ven Dread & 2x Intercessor KTs) for re-rolls. 

 

If I end up giving my TDA capt a TH, I'll most likely DS the Librarian using CP to buff the TDA capt before he charges, otherwise, he's going to follow my PC/AC+DCCW Ven Dread around and buff him w/MoH.

[Sloeberjong]

The Librarian gave the Vanguards +1 Strength, toughness, and attacks as well as a charge re roll while the Chaplain gave re-rolls to hit.

Eh, might of Heroes only boosts 1 model, not a unit. Or did he boost just 1 dude? Just checking...

 

Anyway, captains are solid, although I almost always use a librarian as well. Mostly in Terminator armour because i own the model and it gives me free deep strike. I usually go for MoH on a dreadnought or captain. Depends on the situation. I also like free flying captains, either smash variant or a simple supporting dubble lightning claw dude. Looks awesome!

[Mr4Minutes]

I usually run jump Libby and a watch smash captain. I think(or maybe it’s so obvious no one brings it up) that people forget he has a bolt pistol along with the TH/SS. I find it a great unit to use the SIA mortal wound stratagem. 2+ to hit rerolling 1s usually guarantees mortal wounds.

 

How are you guys running the Watch Master? Deep strike stratagem? I usually don’t take him so now I feel I’m missing out on something.

[Chris521]

 

The Librarian gave the Vanguards +1 Strength, toughness, and attacks as well as a charge re roll while the Chaplain gave re-rolls to hit.

Eh, might of Heroes only boosts 1 model, not a unit. Or did he boost just 1 dude? Just checking...

 

Anyway, captains are solid, although I almost always use a librarian as well. Mostly in Terminator armour because i own the model and it gives me free deep strike. I usually go for MoH on a dreadnought or captain. Depends on the situation. I also like free flying captains, either smash variant or a simple supporting dubble lightning claw dude. Looks awesome!

 

 

Ah, I didn't see that bit.  Kind of disappointing for the librarian, but It doesn't take away from what that captain did.

[IronDreddKnight]

I’m running two battalions, so I’m in a good position to take one of each :D

 

I take a watch master to foot slog with my veteran squads and ven dreads.

 

I take smash captain with jump pack, thunder hammer and storm shield. (Standard)

 

I take a librarian with jump pack, force axe and storm bolter to accompany the smash captain, using “might of heroes” on him.

 

Finally I take a chaplain venerable dreadnought with dual combat weapons and dual heavy flamers.

 

Perhaps not optimal, but a lot of fun.

 

Food for thought :)

[Delta.Skies]

Ive also thought of including a chaplain dreadnought in deathwatch, had a hard time deciding to include him in BA or DW but i think deathwatch will give him more versatility. And gives us +1 in cc so he would make cc vanguard more reliable. Problem is you would have to charge him first otherwise i wouldnt trust my other troops in cc. Melee him out and with castelan (tip from fbook group) 4 str 12 ap-3 d4 attacks, then might of heroes would have him dishing out a max 20 damage.

 

But an infantry chaplain wont see the light of day

 

Librarian would always be included just because.

 

Watchmaster is always the go to. And he is riding in razorback with another with 2 squads stormbolters and 2 frag cannons

 

Watch captain with thunderhammer and stormbolter with bane bolts. The only issue here with me is i only find myself doing one or the other. Mostly i dont trust much other untis (looking at VVs) to accompany him or can match his pace, less you throw bikers in front then its cool.

 

So in order imo i would go watchmaster >librarian> chaplain dreadnought> watch captain

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Chaplain dread is a great choice for DW.

[MadEdric]

I'd say the librarian is the best choice. Without a librarian you have no presence in the psychic phase. If you can, you need to utilize every phase, otherwise you let your opponent use his without any opposition.

[SwashBuccaneer]

I'm playing with a list now where I'm taking a smash captain with jump pack, chaplain with jump pack, and some Vanguard Vets with TH/SS. No idea how it's going to work but seems fun.

 

Plan on deepstriking them in behind and seeing if I can wreck tougher targets and with the chaplain letting me reroll all misses it hopefully means I get more TH hits in.

 

I also run a watch master and Librarian but so far the librarian isn't impressing me.

 

I've only played 1 1750 game with my dudes but the powers seem kinda meh and situational.

 

However psychic fortress was a beast on my Corvus and he pretty much stopped throwing powers at it which left it to shoot at whatever.

[Chris521]

I'd really like to give the Chaplain Dreadnought a try with a librarian.  I'm still waiting on mine from ebay though.  The only thing that really bothers me is that the fight twice stratagem can't be used on dreadnoughts.  

 

One thing that occurred to me, does the +1 to strength from the chaplain dread stack with another one?  If so, two of these guys would get S16 attacks without the librarians help.  Perhaps take 2, each with twin lascannons and a melee weapon.  Deepstrike them in with a beefy squad and let the character rule protect them until they get into combat.  Maybe a captain could join in the fun.

[Kallas]

Chaplain Dreadnoughts will benefit from their own Icon of Hate ability (+1S), but not from a second one. So it would require Might of Heroes (or some other +1S/+1 to Wound ability, like a Doctrine Stratagem) to get to S16.

[vigitant]

One libby is really good.  drops off in value after that. 
Watchmaster is a steal at his points, and makes our shooting stupid scary and consistent.
Captains are good, whether traditional smash cpt,or the combimelta/TH cousin, or our cheaper TH/SB jump captain, or our DW-only combimelta/meltafist termie cpt.
Chaplain is functionally useless.  just do a watchmaster or captain.
Chaplain vendreads are scary, and nice for solving problems.  they get better the more you focus on troops, as you stop needing to worry about enemy AT.  Use them to solve anti-infantry tanks and dreadnoughts.

Normally, i'd say every DW list should optimally have at least 1 watchmaster and 1 libby.

Currently, im questioning the value of the libby in competitve play, with any imperial army(assassins) and GSC being able to take him out with relative ease.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Librarians are cheap enough you can afford to lose one.

[MadEdric]

Not taking a Librarian means the GSC player now has free reign to smite/mind control/mental onslaught you. Deny doesn't require LOS, so hide the librarian.

I know the SM powers are pretty lackluster compared to other lists, but I most often take a librarian so I have a say in the psychic phase.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly Eric. The whole assassins thing is a marketing ploy.

[Danny Cyanide]

Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like my 4 hq for my double Battalion list will be

 

Librarian

Watchmaster

TH/SB Jump Captain with Bane Bolts

Primaris Watch Captain with power fist/plasma pistol (not optimal great, but I love the model and an a little plasma obsessed!)

[BrotherAetherick]

I would recommend the tome of the ectoclades as a second relic. Being able to switch mission tactics for free in an aura saves a lot of CP.

[vigitant]

Not taking a Librarian means the GSC player now has free reign to smite/mind control/mental onslaught you. Deny doesn't require LOS, so hide the librarian.

I know the SM powers are pretty lackluster compared to other lists, but I most often take a librarian so I have a say in the psychic phase.

As a slightly offtopic answer, losing 1 deny isnt that big.  hiding is iffy at best with something like genestealers, and would require deep screen if the tourney/flgs doesnt have ITC magic boxes.  and having him in a magic box limits his mobility enough that they can probably play around your deny if they even care to.  They get bonuses, and we dont outside of close range.

 

The other problem isnt affording losing one, its that plus the opportunity cost of not taking something either much harder to kill, more likely to have an effect before getting shot, or just more troop bodies.

 

I think if i was looking for a relatively cheap source of a deny that could still get value, I'd take an mixed(or maybe not mixed) admech battallion for some cheap cp, 1cp 50%(75% for another cp) deny, and some cheap screen.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Stopping things like Mental Onslaught is huge and can be a game changer. I would even consider running one rhino if you know you’re going up against GSC to stop their snipers... they are really squishy too.

[shanewatts]

While I agree that 1 Librarian typically is not very impactful, you need to look at what benefits it can provide your units. If you have a unit that synergizes with the powers it can provide, then it will be more impactful to your game.

 

As far as being a source of denial vs other lists, it is really easy for your opponent to measure 24" from your librarian and ensure that you can't deny their casts. More often then not the librarian is not the closest unit so they still will be able to cast as they please, and if for some reason your librarian is the closest target to your opponent more than likely it is dead in their shooting phase.

 

In regards to "Magic Boxes," they can't save you from genestealers. The interaction that makes them strong is that they deny LoS in and out, and that only infantry can get inside. This means typically if there is a unit inside that you need to kill, you need to send a melee infantry unit inside to deal with it. So in the scenario above of hiding your librarian inside, those genestealers just go in and murder it anyway.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It depends on how you screen the transport - maybe not worth it?

[jeremy1391]

I'd really like to give the Chaplain Dreadnought a try with a librarian. I'm still waiting on mine from ebay though. The only thing that really bothers me is that the fight twice stratagem can't be used on dreadnoughts.

.

Why not just use a Death company dreadnought for the skull face?