angrom Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Hi everyone. So I am starting a deathwatch list that I will play alongside some greyknights. The greyknights will deal with the strong can opener role (dreadknights + Draigo) so I want my deathwatch to provide the much needed versatile fire support. I was planning on using 2 squads of 5 vet with storm shields and storm bolters with 5 bikes (then split them with the combat squad rule into independent units when deploying). I think the bikes are extremely good value now 25 pts for super mobile tough to crack storm bolters. and adding storm shields to every vet for only 2 pts makes them a lot more reliable as objectives keeper My questions are: Can I actually give storm shields and storm bolters to every vet? Do you think it is worth the points ? and effectiveness? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 My questions are: (1) Can I actually give storm shields and storm bolters to every vet? (2) Do you think it is worth the points ? and effectiveness? (1) Yes, you can, though to clarify the Bikers only have melee weapon options (Chainsword, Power Sword/Maul/Axe) - just in case that was part of the question. (2) Maybe? I'm assuming that you're asking about five Storm Bolter/Storm Shield and five Biker viability (2a), as opposed to the Storm Bolter/Shield viability (2b) but I'll try to answer both: (2a) I'm new to Deathwatch, and am currently building up my models so haven't been able to put them on the table yet, so take my advice/opinions with a grain of salt (and I defer to those with greater experience!) but Combat Squadded Bikers do seem like a good choice. One thing to bear in mind is that, as currently written, Kill Team Bikers would not get full use of Bolter Discipline as would Fast Attack Bikers, since Kill Team Bikers do not have the BIKER keyword (except for, and only for, the purposes of transportation), nor do they get the same Turbo Boost ability (for automatic 6" Advance rolls). That said, they do get the benefit of Defenders of Humanity (Objective Secured) which does make them a useful unit for grabbing objectives, especially isolated ones where the Deathwatch can be lacking in mobility. Also, with ten T5 wounds, they're pretty resilient vs small arms fire, which makes them a decent bully unit if they can avoid more dangerous enemies (eg, Plasma). One of their biggest downsides is that the Kill Team Bikers can't pack in extra firepower/resilience through a Watch Sergeant Biker (like the Fast Attack Bikers can: the WS can grab a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield to give them an invulnerable option as well as doubling his own firepower - making a three man unit as potent as four, but with a smaller footprint, which can be handy for keeping them out of LOS). The loss of Turbo Boost and the Beta Bolter Discipline is also fairly painful, but not necessarily a dealbreaker. (2b) Storm Bolter/Shield is incredibly good. Storm Bolters with SIA for 4pts is insanely good value, even on the move. Storm Shields at 2pts are a no brainer - at least half of your Veterans should have Storm Shields; in a squad of five, you should be taking three; in a squad of ten, with mixed models, at least four should have Shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5263764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrinNfool Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 On the bikers, if all you want is the bikers and you are combat squadding anyways I'd suggest 3 3-4 man squads because you get a sgt. The Sgt can bring a stormbolter and even a storm shield if you want, making a 3 man squad put out 16 shots or 4 man puts out 20 shots at 24-30" depending on ammo. The main reason for combat squadding if you want to do that is to bring a couple VVs or if you want to be a bit crazy arm a VV with a hvy thunder hammer and make the squad t5. You might take a look at some intercessors because of the beta boltgun rule they are quite good for deathwatch now. 100 points nets you the SB/SS 5 man vet squad, and main use of this IMO is deepstriking via strats. If you want to just stick a squad on an obj or in a good shooting position Intercessors are completely viable now. The free -1 AP is reasonable, and if they aren't moving they are gonna be sitting on cover somewhere with 2+ saves and up to 36" range. Everyone seems super obsessed with the SB/SS squads, and they are useful, but people seem to be overlooking the intercessors benefiting from the rule. IMHO with deathwatch intercessors are your gunline, bikers are there to claim objectives and flank or tie up the enemy, and both of those together clear chaff extremely well. Deathwatch generally severely lack in ability to fight vehicles, and while I will still run at least 1 vet squad with SB/SS my most useful vets squads are there to solve my vehicle problems as they are your best sources of firepower. SB/SS while good can be a trap, you only need so much anti infantry shooting 3 bike squads and a 5 man int squad will put out 10 ap-1 2+ wound shots, and 48 ap0 2+ wound shots. 1 SB/SS squad brings you to 68 ap0 shots.(not counting for ammo ap wise) Thats a lot of shots considering how efficient they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5263774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrom Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 " Kill Team Bikers would not get full use of Bolter Discipline as would Fast Attack Bikers, since Kill Team Bikers do not have the BIKER keyword (except for, and only for, the purposes of transportation)" Ho damn I didn't see that. well I took that option specifically because I though they could fire 4 shot each all the time. I definitely use the bikers to be able to get line of sight and some shooting on units that are trying to hide from my vet and to have some fast options to capture objectives. Is there a chance that this is an error that will be errated ? I mean why are bikes not considered as bikes? that's silly. I also definitely add some intercessor. my 3 troop choices were supposed to be 2X (5 vet shield storm 5 bikes) and 10 intercessors. I guess I could also go for 3 * 4 unit of fast attack bikers and 1 HQ for a smaller detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5263822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 It's an odd one for sure. On the flip side, they are INFANTRY, so they can actually traverse ruins!! It definitely needs addressing, because it's very much a case of rules being pretty nonsensical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5263918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Firstly if you stand still with the bike it still gets the rule as it is Adeptus Astartes(Stupid I know but it is something). Now the final point says if the MODEL IS A BIKER nothing about keywords. The Bike model is a biker as it says in the rules above so Rules as written it gets access. Again this is all how you read this stuff so it needs an FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I just checked the codex and it is reworded slightly but still the point stands. The biker model is a biker, it may not have the keyword but it does not mention keywords. The whole keyword system is really borked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 "Deathwatch Biker" is not the same as the " BIKER " keyword. Sorry, it's really dumb but that's the way it is. They do still get the benefit when standing still, but they don't get it "always on" as they do lack the BIKER keyword (only the Troops Kill Team Bikers, the Fast Attacks Bikers get it just fine). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Cyanide Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Mixed unit says that if there is a biker in the unit, the entire unit gains the biker keyword... By this logic, if you are going to insist on keywords and not common sense, shouldn't the entire unit note get to double tap at all times? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Mixed unit says that if there is a biker in the unit, the entire unit gains the biker keyword... By this logic, if you are going to insist on keywords and not common sense, shouldn't the entire unit note get to double tap at all times? Any reference for that? My Codex, and checking the FAQs has nothing about this, says that the Biker model has the BIKER keyword for the purposes of determining what models a vehicle can transport. "Mixed Unit: A unit of Veterans can contain models with different Toughness characteristics. If this is the case, use the Toughness characteristic of the majority of the models in the unit when the enemy makes wound rolls against it. If there is no majority, the Deathwatch player may choose which of the values is used. For the purposes of determining what models a vehicle can transport, Terminators have the TERMINATOR keyword, Bikers do not have the INFANTRY keyword, and instead have the BIKER keyword and Vanguard Veterans have the JUMP PACK keyword." Edit: Also, please don't cast aspersions on my ability to reason with common sense. I fully acknowledge that it's stupid, but it is how the rules are currently worded. As I mentioned earlier, it does actually mean that Kill Team Bikers are INFANTRY, which can actually be useful in other circumstances (eg, moving on to ruins above the ground floor). I expect there to be an errata when the Beta Bolter Discipline gets fully integrated, in whatever form it takes, but until any further clarification, Kill Team Bikers do not have the BIKER keyword and so do not benefit from the final bullet point of Bolter Discipline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Cyanide Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Circled in black: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Well that is entirely different to what is printed in my Codex. That's...interesting. Edit: Battlescribe has the same wording as what is written in my Codex, so there's a fun situation going on with different print runs (presumably). Edit 2: Thinking about it logically: yes, you'd be correct if your version is the one GW wants that all models would get the fully "always on" benefit from Bolter Discipline, but all models would also be considered to be BIKERS when being transported on a Corvus, for example, meaning that you'd be unable to transport 10 Veterans and 1 Biker. Hardly a huge issue, but that seems unlikely the intended result (and the same with the Bolter Discipline interaction). Like I said, I would expect there to be an errata after Bolter Discipline is fully integrated, making the Veteran Mixed Squads rule less...weird. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Cyanide Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I think that the image that I grabbed from the post advice mine is an old index datasheet. I just pulled my actual Codex up on my phone and it's the same as what you're days! Disregard my point entirely! Lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I think that the image that I grabbed from the post advice mine is an old index datasheet. I just pulled my actual Codex up on my phone and it's the same as what you're days! Disregard my point entirely! Lol No worries! Like I said, I fully agree that it's a stupid interaction! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyB Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 FAQ for the Index updates the text to match the Codex. Thus closing the circle. And put me down for "this needs further clarification" also. The Deathwatch Veterans squad is a curious beast anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I agree with the keyword but the rule says nothing about keywords. Recent rules from other codexes usually state that a model must has the "insert here" keyword but this says the MODEL must BE a BIKER, nothing about keywords and guess what is in the codex... The model in the Killteam is a BIKER. The kill team doesn't need to have any keyword accept Astartes and the MODEL is a BIKER as chosen from the list of available models. The way it is worded they get it. Now was that intended I have no idea, but rules as written they do. EDIT: Just thinking about it another case that supports this is the recent change to Intercessors Killteam where they changed the wording so that a Intercessor Sergeant counted towards the 5 models needed for a grenade launcher. The team or model does not have the Intercessor Sergeant keyword but the MODEL in the group is an Intercessor Sergeant. Same here the model is a Biker so therefore gets the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAetherick Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Any time all caps is used like BIKER, instead of biker, it is referencing keywords. This means they don't get bolter discipline. they are only a BIKER when determining transport slots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 We are talking about a model not the killteam, since when does a single model/models in a killteam give that group a keyword outside of special abilities. The rule says model not killteam so nothing to do with keywords. Caps does not always mean keywords and I stress again that keyword is not mentioned on that part of the rule, model is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I just checked the codex, by the wording the biker squad doesn't get it by these rules as they are BIKER(S). So either no one gets it or we all get it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAetherick Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Your intercessor example is not the same. The FAQ states that you can have an aux grenade launcher per 5 intercessors and/or Intercessor sergeants. The FAQ change has nothing to do with keywords. Models in a unit get all the faction keywords and keywords from their unit entry. Your last picture showing that standalone Bikers having the BIKER(S) keyword and would benefit from bolter discipline. All caps does indicate Keywords. An example is the kill shot stratagem, it states you need 3 "Predators". This is not the PREDATOR keyword, so baal predators, FW predators do not count. That stratagem is calling for the specific name of the unit, as opposed to the keyword. "Deathwatch Biker" is just the name of the model inside the Veterans datasheet. It could be named Deathwatch veteran on a bike which would remove any confusion between BIKER and biker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 "Deathwatch Biker" is just the name of the model inside the Veterans datasheet. It could be named Deathwatch veteran on a bike which would remove any confusion between BIKER and biker. Exactly its the model's name. Read the rule it says a model that is a Biker. The rule says nothing about keywords. The last time I saw keywords they have to be the same to the character, a BIKERS keyword is not a BIKER. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrom Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 OOOk, so now I think I got what is going on. Seing the different wording in the index datasheet you can tell that the original wording work better with the new beta bolter rule but was way too broken. That explain why now in the codex the wording is different . I will try to explain how I see it and how I think GW was trying to make it (like always with a lot of open interpretation in their wordings). The mixed unit is an odd thing so to remove the possibility for people to cheese the game with the previous wordings they remove the fact that a single model gives the keyword to the whole unit (like before) because people could claim that 8 vet infantry with 1 biker and 1 vanguard is now a unit that can fly 12" fall back and shoot and turbo boost 6" including footmen. However the way they wrote it in the codex clearly make you think that their intend was to make you understand that even if they are mixed unit they remain different models with their individual limitations and keywords associated. So for example the datasheet of a kill team vet is by default an INFANTRY DEATHWATCH because this is what it is made of by default. Now if you add a BIKER or a TERMINATOR or a JETPACK model in the mix they still have their respective unit KEYWORDS but that does not become the whole unit datasheet keyword. So if you have a unit of 5 vet infantry and 5 bikes the 5 mens can hide into a ruin but the 5 bikes will have to remain on the floor as they do not become suddenly infantry. Also with the new beta rule if 5 vet and 5 bikes moves the 5 vets will not benefit from the double fire but the 5 bikes will, also to remain cohesive the whole unit will have to move at the lowest speed which is the vet infantry one. Now if you decide to split the unit, they become independent and the bikes will become almost exactly like the fast attack bikes (probably without the turbo boost in that case because the turbo boost is not attached to the BIKER keyword but the the unit datasheet itself I think). I think it is a good way to split in half the question and makes a lot more sense that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I think it is a good way to split in half the question and makes a lot more sense that way. Bikers in a Kill Team don't have the BIKER keyword. I don't know how many times I have to say this... They only get it for the purposes of vehicle transportation: the linked images are from the Index datasheet and are thus overridden by the Codex, as it has nothing to do with Wargear so can't even be gotten around with the Codex/Index Flowchart. +++ @Black_Knight: you're right that the way the keywords are written means that even the Fast Attack Bikers don't get the benefit of the third bullet point of Bolter Discipline. I hadn't checked them, because I had assumed GW wasn't quite that bad with their rules writing - but I was clearly wrong It is possible that GW means for purals of a word to be considered to be the same as the root word, but GW are damn loose/lazy, so that's RAI vs RAW. I would personally assume that plurals are fully equivalent to the root word, but there is an argument to be made that that isn't the case! Actually, rereading BrotherAetherick's reply, I do agree with them that BIKERS is sufficient for Bolter Discipline, as it is functionally the same word, simply a plural. Hell, if you want to get nitpicky, it does contain BIKER but just has the addition of an S +++ So, to sum up: No Deathwatch Bikes, be they Troops in a Kill Team or Fast Attack in a Biker Squad, gain the benefits of the third bullet point of Bolter Discipline This is clearly stupid We should all petition GW to be clearer with their rules writing, and to also FAQ/Errata the Troops Veteran datasheet to include giving the mixed models the relevant keywords without breaking things (eg, "Deathwatch Bikers in a Veterans unit gain the BIKER keyword") The situation is all kinds of messed up - the best way to handle it is probably to just talk to your opponents and TOs beforehand to get their consent so that you avoid people trying to pull out RAW in-game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAetherick Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 "Deathwatch Biker" is just the name of the model inside the Veterans datasheet. It could be named Deathwatch veteran on a bike which would remove any confusion between BIKER and biker. Exactly its the model's name. Read the rule it says a model that is a Biker. The rule says nothing about keywords. The last time I saw keywords they have to be the same to the character, a BIKERS keyword is not a BIKER. The rule says BIKER. the BIKERS is probably a typo because literally every other adeptus astartes codex with bike squads have it correct as BIKER (space marines, blood angels, dark angels, space wolves.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Doesn't matter if its a typo with this logic on keywords, Deathwatch bikers will not get Bolter Discipline in any way. As soon as someone picks up on this in the competitive scene we are dead in the water. This was the whole reason for the keywords in the first place they are black or white, there is no interpretation, they have brought out FAQ for incorrect keywords before to symbolise this. I do believe the way they wrote the Bolter rule that they did not mean keywords(Using a different type and font for clarity on paper) at all and they were thinking if your plastic has two wheels and goes whooom it gets it. The whole reason for using the word Model is what indicates this to me because no model in our army contained in a unit has any keywords but the unit does. So in theory no models get this rule. Terminator models do not have the Terminator keyword so they do not get it, but the Terminator UNIT does have the keyword, but again it mentions MODEL and not unit in the rule so bang we loose there too. I really do not think people are understanding my separation of model and unit to explain this. But this is a bigger issue with GW as they still make rules that use keywords and rules that do not use them so it is a big mess. And just remembered the comment on the turbo boost above, kill teams definitely do not get that as it is an ability in the units sheet, nothing to do with biker models in general, if they added that to the kill team you would have boosting normal vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354118-how-good-are-veteran-mixed-with-bikes-squad/#findComment-5264347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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