How good are veteran mixed with bikes squad

[Kallas]

I do believe the way they wrote the Bolter rule that they did not mean keywords(Using a different type and font for clarity on paper) at all and they were thinking if your plastic has two wheels and goes whooom it gets it. The whole reason for using the word Model is what indicates this to me because no model in our army contained in a unit has any keywords but the unit does. So in theory no models get this rule.

 

Terminator models do not have the Terminator keyword so they do not get it, but the Terminator UNIT does have the keyword, but again it mentions MODEL and not unit in the rule so bang we loose there too. I really do not think people are understanding my separation of model and unit to explain this.

 

But this is a bigger issue with GW as they still make rules that use keywords and rules that do not use them so it is a big mess.

 

And just remembered the comment on the turbo boost above, kill teams definitely do not get that as it is an ability in the units sheet, nothing to do with biker models in general, if they added that to the kill team you would have boosting normal vets.

 

The word "model" isn't even vaguely the subject. ADEPTUS ASTARTES model is any Marine basically. Identifying model means very, very little. 

 

Honestly Black_Knight, you are just focusing on the wrong aspect of the rule we're discussing: you're talking about "model" and everyone else is talking about "BIKER".

 

But let's focus on what you're saying about Terminators: all models in a unit have the keywords associated with that datasheet. That's what a unit is composed of: X,Y, Z models with A, B, C wargear and 1, 2, 3 keywords. A Terminator unit is a collection of Terminator models; all of those models have the Terminator keyword because they are the unit - you can't have a Terminator unit without there being Terminator models.

 

People understand what you're saying, it's just utterly asinine and not the point.

 

What GW intended is, generally, immaterial to how they actually write their rules. I do agree that any Marine unit with two or three wheels (Attack Bikes!) should be the subject of bullet point three, but GW writes rules very poorly.

[angrom]

 

Bikers in a Kill Team don't have the BIKER keyword. I don't know how many times I have to say this... 

 

I know your point of view and I understand it, RAW wise it doesn't work

But as you mentioned when even the specific unit in fast attack doesn't have the correct keyword then all indicators are in the red and it is quite obvious that this is not intended.

Since it's implementation the KEYWORD thing is the new excuse for common sense.

I understand that the rules have to be stated somewhere to avoid chaos and everyone to do as they please but GW is not the Vatican and codexes are not the Bible.

It is the player community to take their responsibility to globally agree on something and tournament organiser to wet their shirt a minimum to state a list of Errata based on participant questions or feedbacks.

 

Games workshop only and will only care about one thing. Make and sell models. Their intend is not to make the game competitive or to bring it to EA sport level.

My statement is that the community should agree on a common sense answer to address the problem rather than hiding themselves behind Typo and keywords waiting for the god emperor GW to finally give them a blessing.

 

The Errata for that question have 99.99% chance to never show up (Trust me I'm playing grey knights and I know when to give up on GW care about addressing problems).

because the way they address questions for errata is not based on frequently asked questions but rather by randomly picking a paper in a hat labelled "whingings" on their weekly meetings.

[Kallas]

I know your point of view and I understand it, RAW wise it doesn't work

But as you mentioned when even the specific unit in fast attack doesn't have the correct keyword then all indicators are in the red and it is quite obvious that this is not intended.

Since it's implementation the KEYWORD thing is the new excuse for common sense.

I understand that the rules have to be stated somewhere to avoid chaos and everyone to do as they please but GW is not the Vatican and codexes are not the Bible.

It is the player community to take their responsibility to globally agree on something and tournament organiser to wet their shirt a minimum to state a list of Errata based on participant questions or feedbacks.

 

Yup, it's clearly a misstep. Which is why I said that people should send GW emails about it, and should talk to their opponents and TOs before to clarify the situation and get their agreement to play it logically.

[Mr4Minutes]

You guys are waay over thinking this.

 

I’ve said this a few times, but I’ll repeat it. Yes the RaW make bikes in vet squads infantry with no biker keyword. So no bolter discipline and they can drive through walls and upstairs. And both of those sound against rules as intended.

 

So, I recommend doing what I do. Tell your opponent these bikes won’t drive up stairs and charge through walls, but they will shoot rapid fire at max range. Because they should have the biker keyword.

 

Or don’t. But this argument has been ongoing for months with no sign of GW ever clarifying. So I recommend finding an answer that works for you.

[anarchistscourge]

Well this went off topic. I think bikes are very useful, and effective. Even before the beta rule I often took 3 bikes with 2 van vets (allowing for full back and shoot / charge shanagans) keeps the combat squares unit at T5. The other side I would take vets with stalker pattern boltguns and storm shields so yes you can

[Kallas]

Well this went off topic. I think bikes are very useful, and effective. Even before the beta rule I often took 3 bikes with 2 van vets (allowing for full back and shoot / charge shanagans) keeps the combat squares unit at T5. The other side I would take vets with stalker pattern boltguns and storm shields so yes you can

 

Out of curiosity (and potentially running Veteran/Bikes at some point!) why two Vanguard? Are you giving them melee weapons to give yourself some mobile punch?

 

As for the Stalkers, I really like them, as the extra range and baked in AP-1 seems really useful: how have they been faring for you? What kind of units do you prioritise firing them at, or do you just take targets as they come?

[anarchistscourge]

They work as mobile objective grabbers for me, and this was before they Beta Bolter rule so I have the vanguard storm shield and bolt pistols so it adds to the shooting and they wanted to be in that range for th bikers rapid fire.

Now I’d just run the one vanguard, so that they don’t get bogged down and can still shoot when falling back