Road to The North China Open

[Morticon]

Hey all !! 

So, off the back of the last Cape Town Regionals, I'm back in Beijing and ready to tackle what is looking to be China's first real 40k tournament.  

I don't know the level of gamers, but do know it will be a similar size to back home (ie: around 20-30 players). 

 

I'm looking to take something very similar to what I took for the CT Regional's but have two variations.  Here they are: 

 

 

VARIATION ONE: 

 

 

 

BA - BATT
 

BA Smash Cap - Hammer, Shield, Angels Wing, Artisan. 

BA Libby Dread - Quickening, Wings

 

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Intercessors - grenade

 

9x Vanvets - 5shields, 2Axe, Maul, 1Sword

 

5x Devs - Las/ML/HB - Cherub

5x Devs - Las/ML/HB - Cherub

DW - BATT

 

Libby - JP, Stormbolter (Veil, Might)

Captain - JP, Stormbolter, Hammer (Beacon here, now)

 

9x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 8 stormbolters, 7shields.

10x Vets - 5Bikers (homer), 5SB, 5SS.

5x Intercessors. 

 

AD MECH - BATT  (Likely Graia, but possibly Stygies)

 

Enginseer

Enginseer

 

5x Rangers - 2 Arquebuses

5x Rangers - 2 Arquebuses

5x Rangers - 2 Arquebuses

 

 

+  85 points free for an Assassin. 

 

 

PRO:

 

14 Starting CP. 

Good backfield support,

Great character sniping.

Added shooty support

Slightly chunkier Vet squads.  

 

CON:

 

No screen clearance for Tau/Guard

 

 

VARIATION TWO:

 

 

BA - BATT
 

BA Smash Cap - Hammer, Shield, Angels Wing, Artisan. 

BA Libby Dread - Quickening, Wings

 

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Intercessors - grenade

 

8x Vanvets - 5shields, 1Axe, Maul, 2Swords

 

DW - BATT

 

Libby - JP, Stormbolter (Veil, Might)

Captain - JP, Stormbolter, Hammer (Beacon here, now)

 

8x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 7 stormbolters, 6shields.

10x Vets - 5Bikers (homer), 5SB, 5SS.

5x Intercessors. 

 

SALAMANDERS HEAVY DETACHMENTT

 

"Hulk Captain" - Bike, Shield Eternal, Hammer, Iron Resolve (WL)

 

5x Devs - Las/ML/HB - Cherub

5x Devs - Las/ML/HB - Cherub

Whirlwind - (2d6 version)

Whirlwind - (2d6 version)

 

 

+  85 points free for an Assassin. 

 

PRO:

 

BA Smashy doesnt give away WL

Sallies Smashy is tanky as all hell (7 wounds, T5, 3+/6+++, halves damage)

Much better dev shooting from Sallies

Great screen clearance from Whirlies

All marines!! 

 

CON:

 

9 Starting CP, no regen. 

No additional backfield support.

Loses 4Damage hammer on BA Smashy of Doom. 
 

*************************

 

So there it is, lads.  

I've loved the way that the list plays, and the additional option of a chargey/fighty 3d6 "Ever-sore" is really cool.  The list will play identically on both accounts, with maybe some more resilience with list 1. 

 

 What do you guys think? 

[keeblerartillery]

A) I love these threads. However b) whatever font you used isn’t visible on a mobile device

[Morticon]

A) I love these threads. However whatever font you used isn’t visible on a mobile device

 

Will try fix that!! 

[keeblerartillery]

I’m not as much of a fan of the salamander detachment just from a fluff perspective- in my head, I headcannoned your DW list to be all blood angels who returned from the DW with increased effectiveness, rather than actually still in the DW (silly, but I still play pure BA and am not a fan of soup armies). As far as the Ad mech part of it goes, meh, everyone has that one friend that wants to be cool right?

 

For actual analysis - have you considered relic Scorpius for horde clearing and sticking with DW/BA and dropping the ad mech? Or a fire raptor? The point drop in TL LC makes them pretty formidable. That way you wouldn’t have to take filthy ad mech/ wanna be black smiths

[N1SB]

Hey all !! 

 

So, off the back of the last Cape Town Regionals, I'm back in Beijing and ready to tackle what is looking to be China's first real 40k tournament.  

 

Brother, sorry I don't have any advice on the list, but would be really interested in what happens in this tourney.  Please share your findings with us afterwards.

[Morticon]

I’m not as much of a fan of the salamander detachment just from a fluff perspective- in my head, I headcannoned your DW list to be all blood angels who returned from the DW with increased effectiveness, rather than actually still in the DW (silly, but I still play pure BA and am not a fan of soup armies). As far as the Ad mech part of it goes, meh, everyone has that one friend that wants to be cool right?

 

For actual analysis - have you considered relic Scorpius for horde clearing and sticking with DW/BA and dropping the ad mech? Or a fire raptor? The point drop in TL LC makes them pretty formidable. That way you wouldn’t have to take filthy ad mech/ wanna be black smiths

 

Interesting thoughts on the DW, because that's exactly how I modeled them!! All different successor chapters of the Angels!

 

Im not a fan of "soup" either, to be perfectly honest- its the old school gamer in me.  It pained me to play the IG even!!  But we need CP to be remotely competitive. It's also why I got the "loyal/rusty 17" - just for something a little cool/different.   

 

RE your other thoughts: 

 

the Scorp was first consideration!! I love my Relic model!!!  But, FW, in what appears to be an effort to adequately balance their "quirky" rules, have overpriced the vast majority of their units.  The Scorp comes in at 215 points - 45 more than the TWO whirlies i was considering playing.  Yes, a MILES better gun with their 2x 3d3 S6 AP2, 2D shots - but, I just cant justify that cost in one unit.   Especially not having come from 9d6 S4 mortar shots at 99 points :( 

 

The FireRaptor (which I dont have, but could get quite easily here) suffers the same fate.  It's actually a PERFECT solution that i hadnt thought of - but, at 432 points base, its just madness.  There's no chance it will see my list.  

 

I had even thought of the Quad Launcher rapier battery - but even that is coming in at 85 points - for a T5, W4 model <_< - you can get a whirlwind for that cost. 

[keeblerartillery]

I hear you man - I was actually gonna bring up the quad mortar folks as well, but you covered it!

 

I’ve run a fire raptor a few times, and let me tell you, with a jump captain nearby...it is a mountain of fire power. I’ve also always ran it with two squads of 3 scout bikes. There was literally no chaff left to clear. Again, that’s about 570 for the bunch but putting out some serious dakka. Especially in light of the bolter discipline rules for the bikes.

 

Anyways, those are my 2 cents for keeping it more “pure” but I always enjoy seeing/reading about your thoughts and success! You have a much more nuanced perspective than me, probably from more years of highly competitive gaming! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Panzer]

I'm not sure which one I'd take.

The AdMech one adds some nice threat with the snipers and god knows how much we need the CP, however it's lacking the numbers and the screen clearing potential of an AM detachment.

The Salamanders one makes it easier to connect with the Blood Angels characters against horde-y armies like imperial soup and GSC and adds yet another character to carry you through the game. At that point you are at ~600p of melee characters plus the assassin without any real mass in the list to benefit from their character protection for very long and your only vehicles won't be at the front to protect them either. Not sure if that isn't too much.

 

Also what's your plan with the Assassin? You have 4 options with the Stratagem but should have a plan for how to use it nontheless. The Vindicare would be a bit redundant with the AdMech detachment unless your opponent is super scared of the Arquebuses and alpha strikes all three units. The Eversor feels a bit redundant with the Marine characters already there. Maybe the Culexus as anti-psyker means. The Callidus could be nice against armies who heavily rely on Stratagems turn 1 but it's a gamble.

 

I think between these two I'd take the AdMech one but especially with the option of adding a Vindicare assassin now I don't think it's on the level of the loyal32.

[Morticon]

Plan is to actually go Eversor more often than not.  The 3d6" charge means that I have more aggression in the face of the enemies.  It's a great unit to wipe out standard marine squads. 

 

Vindicare I will only take against character heavy lists, almost definitely against Eldar.  

 

I'm not sure about the Culexus or the Callidus just yet.  But, may consider gimping the opponent if theyre CP reliant.  Especially knight/BA/ork types

[Charlo]

Very funny you're considering Whirlwinds. I was thinking about them the other day as the same-faction-alternative to Mortar Guard squads. Do you think they'll pull their weight? They're so cheap I'd assume so. The biggest problem is having to stick to one kind of missiles :(

 

Totally in love with the 85pts +1CP for an Assassin, feels like a must-have in all Imperial armies now. Completely agree with an Eversor too, especially with his stratagem support you're going to get a lot out of it. Even if it's just appearing and blenderising a squad of something to open the way for Captain Smash/ Hulk.

 

6 Arquebus is a scary proposition, any character caught out by them will be pasted post-haste, or at least take a large dent. Very interesting tool in the box with the CP they provide. It's just a shame that Enginseers (even though they are now a measly 30pts each) are totally wasted, 60pts of "waste". Be careful with the Skitarii though, they will fold to a stiff breeze, I think the best hope is that they'll be so far away that the breeze doesn't reach them. Random combo I just thought of, what do you think to taking Null Zone on the DW Librarian? Get within 6 inches and then those Snipers will start really hurting...

 

I think the Salamanders route is the coolest one; as much as I love Ad Mech (and more CP...) taking the combined arms Astartes approach is very appealing. It also makes more units shine, with the Devs being boosted greatly as you say, a third big CC threat in the HULK and whirlwinds.

 

Out of interest, why the 5 BA Intercessors? Just a tough-ish unit to sit on an objective, bolter drill far things and red thirst close things?

[lash144]

Whirlwinds are pretty bad compared to cadian mortar teams unfortunately... :(

[Morticon]

Some great thoughts thanks Charlo.

 

Whirlwind needs to be playtested! Though i have a feeling ill be needing CP more in a 2k game.

 

Nullzone is definitely an option, despite me not liking the range. In this tourney we can switch out powers, the SA one had us write them on the list...so it may see play.

 

As for the primaris....the scouts usually deploy aggressively. Because of this, I need reliable back and even mid field objective claiming. They full that too, along with the DW primaris. They're just tough and hardy do require a lot more to dislodge.

[Zon]

Remember you mentioning in the tourney review that terrain muffs things up for the admech, are the expectations different for this go around? Do like the idea and arquebuses seem epic for picking off fireblades and the like, but they seem a tad vulnerable compared to the salamanders detachment.

[Morticon]

Remember you mentioning in the tourney review that terrain muffs things up for the admech, are the expectations different for this go around? Do like the idea and arquebuses seem epic for picking off fireblades and the like, but they seem a tad vulnerable compared to the salamanders detachment.

 

I think after playing a 6-game tourney, I realised that terrain wouldnt have made a massive difference in 5 of the 6 games. 

 

That being said, however, with the matchups I had the AdMech wouldnt have been half as helpful as the guard.  I'm just expecting a little more variation in the meta locally.  Less "tournament lists" and more people playing with the armies theyve built over time.  

 

Also, there is likely to be a few big pieces of terrain that block LOS, which isnt as bad as small, pesky, wall-like terrain that characters can advance and hide behind.  It's more likely to have strong fire-lanes - which I can work with.  

[Zon]

Makes sense. Honestly I'm a fan of both variations just off the fact that they're not the typical BA/guard/knight combo we've seen 4 million times. Just to cast a definitive vote though, I say go admech! Very interested to see how effective they are, and with the homer nearby for a potential defensive DW redeploy, perhaps they're not as vulnerable as they seem on paper.

 

Of course, if you do end up running the salamanders, you can always just throw in the vindicare to fill the same role albeit to a lesser degree. Really excited for the write-ups afterward.

[Charlo]

No worries mate, let me know about the whirlwinds. I have an old metal one that I love dearly (my first ever tank) and would greatly enjoy getting it back on the table.

 

Super intrigued to see how the Triple Astartes Tag Team performs for sure.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mort you could go all the way ...

 

:D

[Morticon]

Since I know how the Admech will play, I'm going to test run the double whirly for the first few runs - see how Hulky does! 

[Morticon]

Hey all.

 

So.....I did a playtest this weekend with the Admech detachment (I think I wanted to test out more CP).

 

I played vs an Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlie list...and got absolutely smashed. It was a really, really cool list to play against, nice mix of units but super strong.

 

(Alaitoc)

 

Farseer on bike

Warlock on bike

 

20 Guardians

6 Rangers

6 Rangers

 

6 Shining Spears

Hemlock

 

Succubus - stuff

Succubus - stuff

16 Wyches - 2shardnets

16 Wyches - 2 shardnets

5 Wyches (all Wyches were the S4 cult that only lose one model to morale)

 

Razorwing Fighter

 

Troupe Master

 

Death Jester

Death Jester

Solitaire

 

6 Harlequin Bikers- 6 Haywire cannons

 

 

 

**********

 

 

We were playing board quarters, and Big Guns with 4 objectives. I got first turn. He had deployed really well, with his bikers far back, his Jets further back and his guardians screening the front.

 

With the diagonal angle of approach, it was actually one of the less favourable maps to play against. Even though I got first turn, the amount of fire i could bring to bear to the main bulk of his army was negligible. I also didnt use forlorn fury move on the captain on account of him not being able to get into anything. I contemplated using Wings of Fire, but there were minimal decent options to warrant the sacrifice.

 

I also played the vindicare, hoping to tagteam with the Arquebuses. But, I rolled a 1 on his to hit, and then rolled another 1 on his reroll <_<. I used the fire again strat, and damaged a death jester, but forgot about the headshot rule :( With the arquebuses though, at least one DJ died. Alaitoc + lightning fast (-2 to hit) meant that the Farseer got off unscathed vs my other sniping guns.

 

His positioning of the Hemlock, which is usually my PRIME target, made it such that I didnt want to burn all the CP to get him there. This would probably be one of the bigger mistakes of the game, I feel. I think I should have risked it.

 

I did use wings of fire to get the vanguard into combat in the backline however, and they took out a ranger squad.

 

I wiped out the guardians, of course, but there was very little damage done elsewhere. My libby dread managed to smash into combat and take out the harlie HQ character (and in fact finished off the guardians), but the solitaire he charged as well, made out unscathed.

 

In his turn, he nuked the DW Primaris, a Dev squad, and I think 4 deathwatch marines in the big squad. He then counter charged the vanguard with a succubus and 5 wyches, and managed to completely smash them down to one model (after morale). I also lost the 5 bikers, and 4 scouts and took some heavy damage on the Dread - character rule protected him from the Harlie haywire of doom.

 

In turn 2 it would be make or break. I made 2 screwups which I feel cost me the game. The first was that I had an option to pull the remaining DW out of combat with the succubus to the teleport homer. I forgot.

 

I used the Vindy to shoot a death jester, since I was most likely to kill it (on account of it having been wounded, and me needing to use the strat that gets me more CP!) That worked. (Still forgot the headshot rule, or would have targeted the farseer <_<) While the remaining dev shooting took out the Fighter jet.

 

The Libby dread charged the harlie bikers along with the Enginseer but failed to kill them <_< despite hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s.

 

Also, in combat phase, I used red rampage on the libby dread instead of the Captain (who had charged the Hemlock) - realising as soon as I declared and rolled the result. The captain, for interest sake only had 5 attacks as a result, but, hit with all 5!!! Needing 2s to wound. I rolled THREE 1s. <_<

I had to reroll one. Which I got. However, with the FNP of the Hemlock it survived :(

 

The next turn saw him play clean up. GRIPE SIDE-TRACK - the Hemlock REALLY irks me, on account of it losing NOTHING as it degrades. It's still hella mobile, and its shooting is still 100%. :/ Anyway. Farseer cleaned up with executioner, and the solitaire now moved into my back lines.

 

He then dropped Wyche squad 1 - which got into the backlines comfortably. By this stage, the back of my army was broken.

 

My Dread would be taken out, Smashy went down SUPER cheaply too and I had no real meat left.

My one scout squad did a last ditch effort against the 2W hemlock, throwing a krak grenade...hitting...and wounding....and then rolling a 1 for damage \<_

 

The remaining vindy shots and arquebuses weren't enough to kill the farseer in turn 3, but eventually got him turn 4, but by then it was too late.

 

 

The DW characters fought a valiant last stand, but by turn 4, I was dead. His army was in tatters too, but ....didnt really matter considering he still had an army!

 

He had the Hemlock on 1 wound, about 5 wyches, 6 rangers, a warlock on 1 wound, solitaire on 1 wound and 1 harlie biker left.

 

**********

 

Post game thoughts:

 

 

I was out of practice and didn't know my Vindy rules. Both of which would have made the difference. In retrospect: I should have tried for the long charge (11") to the hemlock and gone for the alpha to get it off the board. Also in retrospect, I should have used the Vindy to target the harlie bikers and the shining spears (removing their save, and killing one biker a turn).

 

Set up was unfavorable, but par for the course!

 

Also, Dice gods were not in my favour with saves - giving me terrible rolls when i needed just average (although, giving me great rolls when it didnt really matter).

 

List wise, I'm VERY happy with the amount of CP - BUT, im not happy with the list overall. At 2k I dont believe it brings enough to the table. The 1750 i had at nationals was great. I felt comfortable. This, as nice as the Ad Mech are, I just feel doesnt give me enough staying power. It marginally increases my damage output, marginally increases my scoring ability, but not at the level I feel I need to compete at 2k.

 

I want to play with the core I played with in SA- ie: the DW + BA contingent - this gives me about 380 or so points to play with. I will have to rework things.

 

I hate to say it....but...losing two dev squads frees up enough points for a you know what O_O

 

I may just go there.

[Zon]

Can personally attest to a Raven castellan... Me and every other guy who runs the castellan haha. The meta has a reason for being the meta

[Morticon]

Option 2, aside from the Castellan, is to lose one Dev squad.

 

I then pick up 2 Quad Launchers - I think terrain will be more favourable for them than the whirlies (and 4d3 is better than 2d6, despite slightly lower Str, not to mention the shattershell option in a pinch at close range). I also then pick up a Leviathan.

 

Can I just confirm that Deathwatch get access to the Rapier batteries? If they dont, then this wont work out, sadly, as I'm intending making the Levvy a DeathWatch so I can potentially strike him in.

 

BA - BATT

 

BA Smash Cap - Hammer, Shield, Angels Wing, Artisan.

BA Libby Dread - Quickening, Wings

 

5x Scouts - storm bolter

5x Scouts - storm bolter 5x Intercessors - grenade

9x Vanvets - 5shields, 2Axe, Maul, 1Sword

5x Devs - Las/ML/HB - Cherub Rapier - Quad Mortar DW -

 

BATT

 

Libby - JP, Stormbolter (Veil, Might)

Captain - JP, Stormbolter, Hammer (Beacon here, now)

 

9x Vets - 2Terms, 1Vanguard, 8 stormbolters, 7shields.

10x Vets - 5Bikers (homer), 5SB, 5SS.

5x Intercessors.

 

Rapier - Quadmortar

Leviathan - Grav/Storm

[BrotherAetherick]

DW gets all FW choices (including rapier batteries)

[lash144]

I hate to say it....but...losing two dev squads frees up enough points for a you know what O_O

 

I may just go there.

Be strong and don't give in to the temptation! ;p

[keeblerartillery]

Mort, I would be super interested in your take of the new vanguard primaris line. The troops in particular seem to suit your flexible play style and the eliminators could fill the arquebus niche decently.

[Morticon]

Mort, I would be super interested in your take of the new vanguard primaris line. The troops in particular seem to suit your flexible play style and the eliminators could fill the arquebus niche decently.

 

I havent seen enough about them yet, and sadly I cant use google at the moment.   Any links to good information on them? I dont know about the Troops? O_o 

 

 

EDIT: Linked in the BA forum!! Dur. 

 

Okay, the infiltrators look great.  Will be entirely dependent on points.

 

My only concern is that they lack any specials, so their role is quite limited.   I would play them over scouts, I think - BUT - if theyre twice the cost, I dont know.