Shadowspear and Dark Angels

[lhavoc]

So with the introduction of the new Primaris Marines from the Shadowspear Box Set, We now have a Primaris formation that specializes in covert operations. What is the formations role in the Dark Angels? I have a theory.

 

1. Shadowspear is the unit/formation where Primaris Dark Angels who have learned too much about the secrets of the Dark Angels are assigned. This serves two purposes. One is to separate them from the rank and file Primaris DA so that the information is sequestered away and there is no threat of further contamination. Two, it allows the Inner Circle to carefully monitor the Shadowspear Primaris to insure that they do not get corrupted by this knowledge (and possibly arranging an "accident" if there is).

 

2. This is bourne out by the fact that a Librarian is assigned as an HQ to the unit. According to Codex: DA, all Librarians are member of the Inner Circle (if this applies to Primaris Librarians has not necessarily true). The Librarian not only provides Command and Control, but can also monitor the unit for corruption.

 

3. Since these missions involve activities that are highly dangerous and far from the rest of the Chapter, it allows the Inner Circle to conveniently "use up" Marines that know too much.

 

4. They may or may not be doing these missions with Deathwing Support, which would give the Unit Commander a means to quietly "correct" the Primaris Marines if they manage to survive these suicide missions.

 

5. It could also provide a means for selected Primaris Marines to "prove" themselves for higher levels of the Inner Circle, but this does not really jibe with the "dark, secret" nature of the Dark Angels.

 

How am I doing so far?

[UtariOnzo]

What’s suggested feels a lot like the ravewing, outside of the suicide mission aspect, so it sorta seems to work.

 

As for the dark secrets thing, we know marines can be elevated and told new secrets as they rise from long established lore, it’s part and parcel of aquiring ranks to be ‘taught’ as must as marines independently ‘discovering’ and then being ‘promoted’ as a consequence. The different levels of rites within the Ravenwing come to mind, with layers of secrets revealed over time.

[aura_enchanted]

i suspect we wont get access at all and we will have to wait till next edition for any of it to be useful to us, as was the case with 7th edition and specialist terminators and bloody triple A guns.

 

even if we got them likely i and nobody else would never use them. basically scouts are there to fill the "its cheap" troops choice and always will be until they decided to relase something cheaper then scouts (perish the thought). the main utility troops will be tacticals and will likely not change till primaris get tacticals of their own as flexible and utilitarian as the tacticals. if you need a meaty boy u have intercessors now i guess. this then brings to the question what in lords name would u want some meaty scouts for? ones with sniper rifles? even if their better then scouts at shooting you never took them for shooting at step 1 period you took them because they were cheap and with sniper rifles they might kill something while campign a backline objective for tactical objective card points. you never took them for serious combat operations thats what actual marines are for. and ones with bolters are even worse, unless these guys comewith chainswords and bolt pistols and can infiltrate to within 6" and launch an out of nowhere ninja strike i fail to see much value to these "light" primaris marines. they would need to come with an outlandishly powerful command ability for taking them, thats what it would take. im talking infiltrating units get to leave infil then return to it once per game at will. then u have a pocket gunman as your ace in the hole but even then thats niche, perhaps useful with lias issadon for some infiltrating devestators shennanigans to dumb multi meltas on enemy tanks.

 

simply put i dont look forward to this release at all.

 

the slim chance for anything useful comes from these autocannon jump pack guys but they would need to be pretty darn good at the autocannon to beat is the anvilus autocannons if they cant preform around that level then chances are you wont see them on table as the lesser autocannons are simply not good enough as is to see much play.

[Spaced Hulk]

Unlike aura_enchanted, I think it's extremely likely that we'll get access to the new units. Partly because we already have access to all the new Primaris units so far released, and partly because GW will naturally want to maximize their sales. Although in the past GW would have made us wait for a new codex to access to new toys (for example Grav weapons etc), I don't personally think that's the case anymore. I suspect that the rules for the Vanguard Primaris will be printed in the second Vigilus book, and that they'll be useable by all Space Marine forces (perhaps with the exception of Grey Knights, but I honestly don't know enough about them these days to form an opinion).

 

Debating their potential usefulness seems pretty pointless at the moment, as so far we've only seen pics of 4 or 5 models, and artwork for another unit.

 

Fluffwise, I could possibly see them working in conjunction with the Ravenwing for scouting/recon missions etc. Not necessarily as part of the Ravenwing (unless they also release anti-grav bikes or something similar) but as a separate force that supports the RW.

 

Definitely thinking of painting my Vanguard DA Primaris with black armour anyway ☺

[lhavoc]

Possibly true, however look on the bright side:

 

1. Robed Librarian (yay!)

 

2. More cool looking models to paint (even if we can’t use them yet)

 

All in All, I’m good with it.

[lhavoc]

PS: wouldn’t be great if they got teleport homers that allowed them to bring in Deathwing to 6”? In the lore (Kadillus) the 10th Co. had homers. I am hopeful that Ravenwing gets the bike homers back too

[SnakeChisler]

Are they a troops option?

 

At the moment nearly all list are 3 scouts for the CP

[JJD]

Obviously I’m just speculating but primaris devestator and snipers should both work well with grim resolve.

[aura_enchanted]

Are they a troops option?

 

At the moment nearly all list are 3 scouts for the CP

they are a troop which means their fighting against the old reliables, the intercessors and the scouts. in the artwork the guys with sniper rifles and the ones with bolters have troops insignia's on their shoulders

[sneakybamsen]

Are they a troops option?

 

At the moment nearly all list are 3 scouts for the CP

 

There will be a troops choice from the shadowspear box, if it's snipers I do not remember, but GW confirmed there will be one.

 

Yes, scouts are the cheapest, but they are mainly taken because they are better than marines point for point. Probably better than intercessors point for point as well, but by less of a margin I would imagine.

 

I am for sure getting the shadowspear box, there is no doubt in my mind we will have the options it provides. In any case I want to expand my traitorous collection as well (yes, Stobz, I know where Cell 42 is located, already on my way for "biscuits and tea"), so there is no reason not to get it for me.

 

Rules for the new primaris probably won't matter too much to me, I like having most options anyways. I don't have a hunter or a stalker, and I am not getting reivers or a master in gravis armour, but that is about the options in our codex I don't own or am getting soon (primaris).

[Grand Master Raziel]

So, regarding Intercessors vs Scouts. I've played a couple of ITC-format tournaments recently, and I've been finding that sometimes one needs to have something sit on an objective in the open. I've been thinking it makes sense to have at least one unit of Intercessors for that. With their native 3+ and W2, they'll be harder to shift than 4+ W1 Scouts, and are not unreasonably priced for that purpose. Plus the Beta Bolter rules gives them a bit of an offensive boost. I think Intercessors may almost be worth their points. I'd still like to see them come down a point or two per model, but I do intend to give at least 1 squad a try.

[Skorp]

Dont know enough DA lore to say where they would fit exactly. I do like the idea of a primaris inner circle being the outer circle of the inner circles. But not sure I see these as fitting that role exactly though.

 

These remind me of the stormcast vanguard chamber and I didn't like that aesthetic so much. I'm excited to see what future primaris chambers are opened though.

 

I'll be getting the librarian for sure, but nothing else from the box has excited me yet. I dont even want to use the librarian for DA.

 

All the chaos models will get their own boxes, same for the primaris and if they dont they'll be easily available later.

 

Given all the rumor engines and how crazy last year was I'm hoping to wait out the year as far as new releases to see what I really want at the end of the storm. That hasnt gone so well the last two months so far so we'll see.

[lhavoc]

Looking at the new Model for Shadowspear reveal. Note tin the description that it says the Vanguard Marines operate “Ranging far ahead of their battle-brothers, they drop behind enemy lines, deep into hostile territory.” Sounds like a great place to stow the newly “pseudo Inner Circle” Primaris Marines so they can’t contaminate the rest of the Chapter.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'm seriously considering selling my DA to start an all Primaris DA. It's probably the future anyway...

[FlamingDeth]

I'm seriously considering selling my DA to start an all Primaris DA. It's probably the future anyway...

You could convert your non-primaris to chaos, as they're maintaining normal marines.

 

I'm thinking that for Ultima founding successors that maybe vanguard can fill their second company since while they're not on bikes, they maintain a similar role.

[aura_enchanted]

I think that normal marines are going nowhere and that next edition after the primaris have become more cut and bloodied by table wars, and their rules have become less fresh and they can't seem to squeeze more juice from them. The primaris and normal marines will exist as one.

 

I suspect that however they will rule in lore that the high lords will refuse to found new chapters on the foundations of the old astartes. So u won't see new foundings for those. With the chapters already in service being allowed to maintain their existence as a reward for tireless services rendered.

 

Though going back to rules, use any of these guys over scouts or normal marines bwahahah sorry. Why would u do something like that to yourself. Intercessors I can understand. They are very good anti infantry a head above the normal tactical marines in that one respect. But these guys would need to cost as much as scouts do already for me to even look at them. Any more and they become impractical.

[FlamingDeth]

If I cared about unit efficiency I wouldn't have spent the past two decades playing Deathwing.

[TempestBlade]

I did the same thing when primaris came out. Sold my normal marines (Storm Wardens that I ran as Space Wolves) and came back home to the Rock with all primaris and Ravenwing. DA was my first army and I was always sad that I sold them. Doing the Blades of Vengeance since it’s an all primaris DA successor. Shameless link to Imgur https://imgur.com/gallery/tJt35Bi

[Berzul]

I'm seriously considering selling my DA to start an all Primaris DA. It's probably the future anyway...

I have almost done that a couple of times.

 

In the end decided to just stop expanding them (sans a few exceptions) and to just focus on finishing a fluffy number of units for a "legacy army".

 

In a year time, maybe, Ill begin adding a Primaris Company to my Successors, and start playing them as a main army. Once GW "finishes" releasing their Primaris range of minis.

[FlamingDeth]

Not to contradict myself too much, but I'm not terribly excited about the vanguard captain being stuck with an underwhelming heavy weapon. It encourages him to stand still and we don't need help with shooting when we're standing still.

[JJD]

I am really confused by the suppressor. A long range heavy gun with a jump pack and 14 inch move. They seem to have a serious identity crisis.

[Hantheman]

I am really confused by the suppressor. A long range heavy gun with a jump pack and 14 inch move. They seem to have a serious identity crisis.

 

Haha yeah. But the troops though, they will be our best troop choice I think. Scout move, deepstrike denial and auto wound on 6 with bolter drill meaning they double tap when stand still and re-roll 1s? Bloody hell

[zacret]

 

I am really confused by the suppressor. A long range heavy gun with a jump pack and 14 inch move. They seem to have a serious identity crisis.

 

Haha yeah. But the troops though, they will be our best troop choice I think. Scout move, deepstrike denial and auto wound on 6 with bolter drill meaning they double tap when stand still and re-roll 1s? Bloody hell

 

 

what tropps can do this? :O

[Gederas]

I am really confused by the suppressor. A long range heavy gun with a jump pack and 14 inch move. They seem to have a serious identity crisis.

Haha yeah. But the troops though, they will be our best troop choice I think. Scout move, deepstrike denial and auto wound on 6 with bolter drill meaning they double tap when stand still and re-roll 1s? Bloody hell

what tropps can do this?

The new Infiltrator marines in Shadowspear.

[Berzul]

 

I am really confused by the suppressor. A long range heavy gun with a jump pack and 14 inch move. They seem to have a serious identity crisis.

 

Haha yeah. But the troops though, they will be our best troop choice I think. Scout move, deepstrike denial and auto wound on 6 with bolter drill meaning they double tap when stand still and re-roll 1s? Bloody hell

 

 

AND, they bring their own Apothecary with them!