Chapters Turning Renegade/Traitor

[Brother Aiwass]

You have point there. Shall the Black Templars be considered excommunicate traitoris for violating the codex then?

[Panzer]

The difference is that Huron was a Chapter Master, one of a thousand such in the Imperium. Guilliman is a Primarch, Lord Commander of the Imperium, who knows the Emperor's mind. One has the authority to make those kinds of changes. The other did not.

 

Not to mention he's the one who actually wrote it so all the RAI belongs to him lol

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Those resources weren't needed in other sectors. Thats why he rebelled, because they were needed in the Maelstrom Zone. Even the Inquisition proved the local Lords were corrupt and wrong, just too little too late.

[General Strike]

I mean, Mortarion is a Primarch too, does he get to write Imperial laws just because of his creator? I would take a loyal chapter master doing what's right over Guilliman and his faux pragmatism anyday. But I was also more of a Jaghatai Khan guy myself.

 

Huron had the same domino effect all renegades have, one step away from the Imperium leads to murdering everyone and growing three extra arms.

[Gederas]

You skipped the parts about withholding resources that were more urgently needed in other sectors because he wanted to build his own Ultramar. He violated the Codex, he violated inter-sector trading and tithing treaties, and when given an olive branch, he assassinated two Chapter Masters at Grief.

 

I have no sympathy for the Tyrant of Badab.

You say that like it's a bad thing. The lords profiting the trade were corrupt, and the codex? Guess what Guilliman did first when he woke up? Yeah, he violated the codex.

Guilliman was also the one who wrote the Codex in the first place, and since it was literally described as a thesis, not sacrosanct (despite what it became afterwards), violations of it aren't inherently bad.

 

The difference is that Huron was a Chapter Master, one of a thousand such in the Imperium. Guilliman is a Primarch, Lord Commander of the Imperium, who knows the Emperor's mind. One has the authority to make those kinds of changes. The other did not.

Not to mention he's the one who actually wrote it so all the RAI belongs to him lol

That too :lol:

 

Guilliman was the guy who literally wrote the book. He's the one who knows what it means, and he's also been re-writing the frigging thing.

 

One of my friends who read Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium summed up Guilliman's reaction to it, in a more modern sense:

"You guys took a College Thesis and made it a Constitution of your entire organization!"

[Brother Aiwass]

A "thesis" that he used to impose by brute force to those who didn't agree with ;)

[Malios]

Thats why the Badab War was well written. You were led to understand Huron's choices but not necessarily sympathise with him and his chapter. Just as you really had to question the motives and the ruthlessness of some of the Imperial forces involved.

 

I also enjoyed the story of the Crimson Slaughter for similar reasons. You were led to understand why Sevastus Krannon gave up the idea of martyrdom for his chapter but don't really feel bad for the Crimson Slaughter. Whats the point in a noble end if noone cares for it right?

 

[Edit] Although it was rushed, it was good to see how and why a chapter breaks down into a warband as what we got with the Crimson Slaughter. Krannon realised that once you cross the line of no return, hierarchies based on discipline, honour and tradition quickly crumble.

[Trevak Dal]

I think it's an abberation in the lore given repeated retcons and writers having a understandably hard time imagining what Astartes would be like.

 

Wall o Text and Opinion piece in spoilers:

 

 

So when the traitor Legions rebelled, they were largely following their Primarch's orders, usually killing any who had conflicted loyalties with the emperor previously.

 

Now because GW changed the fluff of Marines from being less StarCraft Marines (criminals jacked up and put in power armor) and more warrior monks, you get confusion about an individual marine.

 

Are they people and can they choose? As they are designed, Astartes are basically cyborg war implements where during the Dark Age drones might have been used. They are indoctrinated and incultured to fight, follow orders and to kill the enemy.

 

A lot of becoming an Astartes removes humanity. Of course many recruits were not civilized humans to begin with, often taken from gangs, feral tribes and the like, winning something like the Hunger Games where they kill other children to win the right to be made into weapon systems.

 

Now, in the lore Legions (Iron Warriors namely) and chapters have been given human feelings and ambitions, which is silly but a natural consequence of people writing this stuff and not having Master Chief-ian/Felix (as The Engine) stoic Ubermensch to relate to.

 

Because when space Marines rebel or fall they are basically being human and not Astartes which is odd.

 

What I mean about the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors rebelled mostly because Perterabo was sadfaced that his legion was given slog work to do. I imagine that most iron warriors didn't care about it until Perty came along and complained about it.

 

Realistically Astartes should never rebel or fall to chaos because they are functionally designed to be weapons of war, to be used until they are expended, and have their reproductive bits yanked out to start the process over again.

 

The Badab war is perhaps the Best example of Astartes turning traitor, where a misunderstanding explodes into full on open conflict. Huron thought the Astral Claws were as privileged as Founding Legion chapters.

 

He was incorrect and got a melta facial for his troubles.

 

With the shift of the Imperium's politics being super religious, terrified of change (...mostly except when gw wants to sell new models), the more "free dealing" Astartes can come into conflict with the religiously powerful in the Imperium, or with those chapters who have differing engagement parameters (kill everybody because they are either hostiles or collaborators too cowardly to fight back vs kill only hostiles and hope the roots of chaos/genestealer cults/xeno rebellion haven't been sowed).

 

Astartes are designed by the emperor to kill human shaped targets with STC comparable tech and similar xeno threats (in the lore) they operate best as a special forces strike units where they hit fast, mess stuff up and let the Guard come in and clean up the mess.

 

Legions allowed them to play at being guard and navy and all, but they were best when they could fly in system, strike from orbit and just ruin some poor bastards' day.