Captain Idaho Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Just wondering whether I'm alone in this? I loved the Necrons back in 3rd edition as their background theme was dark and sepulchre like whilst the C'tan were the Lovecraftian feeling cosmic terrors. Unknowable and mysterious. Man, I miss that! I dislike the Egyptian empire feel to Necrons now, who are just another human empire rather than what they were back in 3rd edition. It's okay for people to disagree and feel free to post what you like about the fluff for the background here too. We're all friends here :) Question - does anyone feel like GW is pivoting back to a Lovecraftian style with AoS and thus will there be any chance of a move towards this with Necrons perhaps next year or later 2019? The Star Gods get released and take back some of the Necrons into slavery. Civil war looms perhaps as the Silent King returns to lead the rest of the Necrons against the C'tan Necrons? This is something I wish GW would get involved with (alongside new models of course!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Original necrons being mindless slaves of the c'tan with no personalities or anything? Nah, that's what the nids are for. Also the nids are pretty lovecraftian in that they just see hum,anity as something tob e eaten. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 Yes I prefer the old Necron's too, 3rd Ed fluff was great! Just be Grognard and shout down the Neckbeards stupid fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 No, the old Necron fluff was pretty boring. Now, you still have all of that (in the kingdom of the severed) but you also have elements that aren't just mindless aggression. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I thought the old fluff was awesome. I still remember.....wait the Dragon is the Machine God?!?! Good times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I thought the old fluff was awesome. I still remember.....wait the Dragon is the Machine God?!?! Good times. That's not tied to pre-5th fluff. That has been hinted at as recently as the Horus Heresy books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 In some regards, I kind of miss the old stuff. The unknownable factor was cool in a way but likely built too much hype for them. However I personally think one of their coolest things was how much the tyranids NOPE NOPE NOPE whenever they approached a tomb world but I am not sure that was retained into the new stuff as it was one of the things I liked. One of the more awesome aspects of the necrons was their power level being effectively still the same as it was back in the war in heaven, only being slow to wake slowing them as the way they were portrayed was that they were even more powerful than tyranids who are posed as the ultimate intergalactic threat. However a lot of the power seems to be lost now, they aren't as imposing. Being placed in the same bucket as the eldar: Arrogant head up their rear who think they are the top dog still which is getting a little much for my taste. I would actually like to see some of the top necrons actually acknowledge other races as some form of equal. We do see this in the form of the Triarchs, who deem some races as honourable and treat them with some actual modicum of decor. I will admit however, I am still in love with their characters however as while they are arrogant they aren't done in a such a way it is annoying. They are arrogant because they have a reason for it: immortals with super computer levels of thinking power. Imotekh literally letting you go to face him again just to flex on you (I believe he has my favourite quote from necrons which was him to Helbrecht. It was Strength D in terms of fire!), Trazyn is just a mastercrafted piece of fun who is certainly a laugh and any time you read "Trazyn" in a lore piece always leads to some sort of silliness of his, Zahndrek is a nice piece of necron flexing as while being "crazy" he still bodies opponents regardless of the handicap, Oberyon and the "royal prisoner killed during an escape" just adds to it. Szera is just sadistic to levels only dark eldar can match (i mean, not even for pleasure. Just for some vain attempt at his project. Would love to see him be the reasons pariahs come back btw), anrakyr (who I call anakin too many times) is likely the most boring of the lot, just nothing to him really bar the fact he has the tachyon arrow (my favourite weapon and sums up the necrons in one piece of wargear). Those characters are certainly a good addition but I do somewhat miss the mystique of necrons. Certainly don't miss phase out, that rule can die in a fire. Would like to see Pariahs return in some form (Like I said, Szera experimenting on those with the null gene) and I would like to see necrons in the future becoming a massive thing in relation to handling tyranid problems on the eastern fringe. Oh and Orikan is fun...forgot about him. Love him too. "ah data overflow, my prediction was wrong...time to change the past to change the future to change the present so I don't look like I got it wrong" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 In some regards, I kind of miss the old stuff. The unknownable factor was cool in a way but likely built too much hype for them. However I personally think one of their coolest things was how much the tyranids NOPE NOPE NOPE whenever they approached a tomb world but I am not sure that was retained into the new stuff as it was one of the things I liked. One of the more awesome aspects of the necrons was their power level being effectively still the same as it was back in the war in heaven, only being slow to wake slowing them as the way they were portrayed was that they were even more powerful than tyranids who are posed as the ultimate intergalactic threat. However a lot of the power seems to be lost now, they aren't as imposing. Being placed in the same bucket as the eldar: Arrogant head up their rear who think they are the top dog still which is getting a little much for my taste. I would actually like to see some of the top necrons actually acknowledge other races as some form of equal. We do see this in the form of the Triarchs, who deem some races as honourable and treat them with some actual modicum of decor. I will admit however, I am still in love with their characters however as while they are arrogant they aren't done in a such a way it is annoying. They are arrogant because they have a reason for it: immortals with super computer levels of thinking power. Imotekh literally letting you go to face him again just to flex on you (I believe he has my favourite quote from necrons which was him to Helbrecht. It was Strength D in terms of fire!), Trazyn is just a mastercrafted piece of fun who is certainly a laugh and any time you read "Trazyn" in a lore piece always leads to some sort of silliness of his, Zahndrek is a nice piece of necron flexing as while being "crazy" he still bodies opponents regardless of the handicap, Oberyon and the "royal prisoner killed during an escape" just adds to it. Szera is just sadistic to levels only dark eldar can match (i mean, not even for pleasure. Just for some vain attempt at his project. Would love to see him be the reasons pariahs come back btw), anrakyr (who I call anakin too many times) is likely the most boring of the lot, just nothing to him really bar the fact he has the tachyon arrow (my favourite weapon and sums up the necrons in one piece of wargear). Those characters are certainly a good addition but I do somewhat miss the mystique of necrons. Certainly don't miss phase out, that rule can die in a fire. Would like to see Pariahs return in some form (Like I said, Szera experimenting on those with the null gene) and I would like to see necrons in the future becoming a massive thing in relation to handling tyranid problems on the eastern fringe. Oh and Orikan is fun...forgot about him. Love him too. "ah data overflow, my prediction was wrong...time to change the past to change the future to change the present so I don't look like I got it wrong" In the current codex a necron phaeron is talking to a human general at a summit, of course he's threatening him, but there is still a summit.I wish they'd do a book about what happened. I still like the newcrons mostly for how they reacted to being screwed by their gods. Most people,. if they think their god is throwing bad stuff at them it's all like "OH, we must pray harder and bow deeper and kneel faster because our god is pulling something on us!" Necrons get screwed over by their gods, declare war on them, shatter them and turn them into their servants. Yeah. You gotta admire that. Also, you want horror? You got flayed ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5264999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Let’s also not forget that destroyers are also generally treated as if they have the plague or leprosy...for :cuss good reason. They’ve got horror in spades, and I think more than the FO’s (or at least more tragically horrifying). Flayed ones got cursed by a god. The destroyers just went mad by natural processes, suggested that without outside influence this would have happened to the Necrons anyway. Think about that. What scares you more? A curse, or what lurks in your own head? Additionally, I feel like the tyranids NOPEing out after hitting a tomb world is still canon, in that I recall something about it in the 5th ed codex (the first one I read), but not precisely what.... Maybe I read it in a rulebook. Not sure, the first one of those I owned with lore was the current one.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 That is definitely referenced in the current codex or Forgebane. Can't remember which. They don't always avoid them, but they will sometimes pass them by even when they are teeming with biomass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialIssue Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Thing is, you could have all the character you'd want. Under Oldcrons, the lords and ladies under the C'tan did have personalities and free will. After all, they were the ones who acquiesced to the metal, and who brought the C'tan to corporeality. Oldcrons with their Cthulian inspiration were meant to show the terror of logic and the insanity of science when taken to their extremes; as the antithesis of hot-blooded life and emotion, and the warp. They were the other side of the battle between logic vs emotion, the other monstrous pantheon of an insane war waged since the very beginning of time between immaterium and material, that now at the end of the 41st millennium, is beginning its final phase. The other end of a string tugging at the soul of humanity and the Imperium; they are the reflection and promise of the terrors of technology that helped break our lost golden age and had us flee back into the safety of barbarism, and gave the Dark Age of Technology its name. What do I mean by logic taken to its extreme? The Necrons are the logical conclusion of putting survival above all else, and implementing whatever technology, science or policies without moral compunction to ensure it. What is a soul but a fairytale; what does the individual consciousness mean with all its messy transients of suffering and emotion in the face of continued concrete existence. Science gives no thought to such matters, only the unblemished truth of survival through continued power. The C'tan are the apex predators in the galaxy, the gods of darwinism that logically should have the right to rule and survive above all else by their sheer might. The evolutionary imperative of survival of the fittest is a truth, not a belief. The Necrons will cleanse the galaxy of its messy chaos, and put it to order. Then they will make a desert, and call it peace. Then they will begin the preparations to ensure their survival beyond the heat-death of the universe trillions of years into the future - the real over-arching concern of their their C'tan masters. While the C'tan all enjoy the taste of mortal cattle, it is a transient pleasure they enjoy as their position as apex predators. It is only logical. It is also insane. I would have liked to have had both this over-arching unique faction identity, and the best parts of the new fluff - having the cake and eating it. I like the insanity that their long hibernation has brought, and most of thetraits introduced into the Retcrons would easily be ported to the base of the previous fluff. Different lords' characters would put a different emphasis on any number of aspects of the Necron race and the C'tan they are dedicated to - omnicide, preparation for the far future, scientific experimentation/data, insanity, symmetry and order, the peace of silence, the cloying suffocating unnatural presence of emotionless pariahs, etc. A lord who can't stand the discordant noise of imperfect organic life, and is driven to purge everything till he can only hear the silence of the desert, or another who is driven to scientifically catalogue and dissect every specimen of life before it is purged. A lady who is obsessed in maintaining geometric precision in everything. etc... So, no Tomb Kings in Space for me please. A threat of existential dread and looming terror, that combines myriad sci-fi and philosophical tropes into something unique, yes. Original post/thread Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 Some good points made by all. It seems like a compromise is needed here. There are people who like the new fluff and people who like the old fluff so the easy fix is to have a factional split (same Codex of course) with a return of (escaped?) Star Gods and independent Necrons resisting them. Works quite well and easy to do, opening up plenty of room for creativity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 I thought the old fluff was awesome. I still remember.....wait the Dragon is the Machine God?!?! Good times. That's not tied to pre-5th fluff. That has been hinted at as recently as the Horus Heresy books. You mean from Mechanicum? I am not one hundred percent, but I think that book also pre-dated the 'new' Necron fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 You mean from Mechanicum? I am not one hundred percent, but I think that book also pre-dated the 'new' Necron fluff. It did and GW haven't even hinted at it since... Let’s also not forget that destroyers are also generally treated as if they have the plague or leprosy...for :cuss good reason. They’ve got horror in spades, and I think more than the FO’s (or at least more tragically horrifying). Flayed ones got cursed by a god. The destroyers just went mad by natural processes, suggested that without outside influence this would have happened to the Necrons anyway. Think about that. What scares you more? A curse, or what lurks in your own head? Regarding Lovecraftian horror... there's much more to it than sci fi horror. It's about cosmic mystery and power. Being insignificant against unknowable plans and entities. Helplessness and awe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 So I really liked the old Necron Lore (and Aesthetic) and think the newer stuff has gone a bit too blingy and over designed (though barely!) In my own personal headcannon, it's all from an Imperial perspective and an evolution of the race as a whole... Yes, in their first awakenings it seemed that they were mindless and controlled by the C'tan but as more have Awoken and even interacted with the Imperium then its become known that they are very much alive and in-control of their thoughts. Maybe this could sort them out... Though I'd still like the basic warriors to be functionally mindless, with more intelligence the higher in rank the 'cron is. I do quite like the idea of a factional split, those worshipping C'tan and those who would see them imprisoned as tools! However this might be a bit much for GW to do at this point. I do 100000% love their tech however, and the subtle egyptian stuff is still nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 The new Mechanicus Vid Game hints at the Void Dragon being a C'Tan somewhat. The factional split is a cool idea, and could be implemented fairly simply given the recent galactic tumult lorewise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTaW Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 This thread has a lot of good comments on the same topic:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342853-how-do-you-feel-about-necron-lore/ I don't feel like the old lore is gone at all, there's just more story available to us now. Room and reason enough for everyone's collection to be what the owner wants of it. I do think that there will be big stuff coming for Necrons as the story of 40k keeps getting rolled out and I do hope to see a resurgence of C'Tan in control of themselves, in line from this comment GW made last year in their 500 Facts about 40k article. "While most C'tan are mere shadows of their former selves, it is rumoured that some are waiting in exile for their moment to strike..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Oldcrons had the best written fluff in terms of presentation, even if the scope of that fluff was pretty narrow by necessity. Everybody says that we should treat Warhammer fluff as apocryphal, as coming from an unreliable narrator or in-universe propaganda, but more often than not it's something that comes across as a means of hand-waving away bad writing and inconsistencies. There was more to it in earlier editions, when a lot of fiction in the Codices did in fact come in the form of in-universe texts, like reports from Inquisitors for example. The Oldcron Codex was probably the peak of that style of writing: an entire faction almost entirely fleshed out through in-universe perspectives of non-Necrons. It works much like a horror movie, where the monster is scarier when the audience can't see it. It's also why an Oldcron-style faction within the newer fluff wouldn't be as scary, since all the mystery and build-up towards it is gone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 It could work, in my humble opinion. If GW uses a Star God revolt, or even just says several Star Gods were never shattered into shards after all. It's less of a leap than certain modern Space Marines Amendments... Those Star Gods could even have their own units, including Pariahs and otherworldly entities. They have their own agenda and can be steeped in mystery again. I admit the mystique has gone with the revelation of Necron world's and dynasties but then those can be the minority and there are terrifying worlds with hordes of dormant servants to the C'tan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 For peolle who have to have the old crons we could have a few dynasties totally under the control of a c'tan shard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 I'm not quite sure folk are familiar with just what I mean by Lovecraftian. The 3rd edition Codex was VERY MUCH inspired by that style and mythos of cosmic horror. The newer background material doesn't use that method and is poorer for it. It's mundane in my view, generic even, though I concede it is popular with some. Whilst I doubt there will be a retcon of the retcon, it would be nice if GW reintroduced cosmic horror back into the game, outside the Chaos Gods (who cover that partially though are more akin to the great enemy in theological circles). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I still am not a fan of old crons, the whole thing of mindless robots out to "KIll ALL HUMANS KILL ALL HUMANS KILL ALL HUMANS" is just so hokey now. In a sense the idea they lost most of their souls yet still retain hate, arrogance, cruelty, madness, pettiness, etc, is kind of a horror in and of itself. The idea of the higher things like compassion, decency, etc being lost while the worst is retained goes to the grimdark meme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 The old Necrons were a vessel for the machinations of the C'tan. Giving them personality (arguably unnecessary as Lords etc always had more autonomy) the way they did doesn't actually make much difference to the C'tan element of background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatnik cryptek Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Well, I just kinda like he idea that instead of grovellng and bowing to their gods after they hosed them the necrons got good and angry and got even with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 I like that too. So a civil war is the only logical choice lol! Hey they could have the Silent King return as a 3rd faction. Dynasties vs Silent King vs C'tan That would be epic. Room for all of us to enjoy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354169-does-anyone-else-miss-the-old-lovecraftian-necrons-and-ctan/#findComment-5265840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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