How are the 1.1 FAQ's playtest units?

[Elzender]

Slips, maybe changing the phosphex bombs from an upgrade for the sergeant to an upgrade for the unit grenade launchers? As in you can buy up to three phosphex grenades, which can be shot using the launcher's range (obviously, each grenade is one use only).

[rendingon1+]

Or it could work like Deatsworn pseudo phospex - every model has them, but you can only throw one per phase. At the very least.

Rad Phage for one round would be super broken.

[Mazryonh]

 

Destroyers can also take meltabombs as a group, which gives them some nice anti-armour ability (albeit at point-blank range).  As for "combined charges," are you talking about the "Cut Them Down" bonus from the Black Reaving RoW?

 

Absolutely. Looking forward to building this.

 

I thought that "Cut Them Down" only applied to a combat that had been going on since (at least) the last turn. By that time, a Rad Grenade's effects should have worn off. Unless you're talking about charging Destroyers into an ongoing combat and using both the Rad Grenade debuff and the "Cut Them Down" bonus at the same time.

 

Have recently gotten a chance to play against the recently reworked palatine blades in ZM and can confirm that when equipped with all equipped with artificer armor they are scary prospect, for regular power armored infantry to fight, though they had a surprisingly hard time eating through WS5 Vets... 

 

Destroyers probably still need to be buffed, in terms of shooting, they probably need either poisoned ammunition, or some sort quasi rending (AP3/AP2) mechanic... In close combat they would probably benefit from having defensive grenades at the vary least, inducing lolz when they randomly blind some kitted out close combat unit

 

Palatine Blades having a hard time with WS5 vets? Were those Palatine Blades not using Sonic Shriekers? If they were they should have cleaned house with the Vets fairly soon.

 

If Destroyers had Poisoned Ammunition it would have to be Poisoned 3+ or better to outperform their basic S4 bolt pistols, which is actually the same as the Poison from their Phosphex Bombs, making the latter a little redundant (aside from not having to roll to-hit) and short-ranged by comparison.  Defensive or Blind Grenades would make them more interesting however, complementing their Counter-Attack rule nicely.  You should send that idea along to Forge World as feedback.

 

Definitely Hoping they get more Rad/Poison/Phosphex options in terms of gear.

 

The easiest is just making their weapons poisoned, sure. But, I don't see why they couldn't also get a more dangerous, Astartes, version of 40k Admechs Phosphor (as, yknow, actual phosphex) Weapons as specialist ammo. S5 Ap4; wound rolls of a 5+ are at Ap3; gets hot! and, optionally, have it either give -1 to cover or +1 to-hit for other units shooting the same unit.

 

Missiles going to 1/3 would be swell as would the option to trade both pistols for Plasma/other instead of just one. Dual bolt pistols are basically Rapid Fire range only bolters so why not have the same for their plasma option and/or any other pistol options they would/could/should get access too like, say, a Lucifex. Why these guys also dont have access to Rad-Cleansers is beyond me.

 

Or, a grenade launcher for the sarge's phosphex bombs to give them a bit more range. That'd be nice.

 

Irrad Cleansers and Phosphor weaponry would go great on Destroyers, but the problem with that (or a Grenade Launcher for Phosphex Bombs) is that they'd have to change the sprues for the models, so it wouldn't be a decision taken lightly by Forge World (unless they were added as a separate "upgrade" sprue in a larger box). Trading both Bolt pistols for Plasma pistols might be elbowing in on the Moritat's niche as well.

 

So has anyone here had the opportunity to try the updated Medusan Immortals and Ashen Circle?

[Slips]

I have no real issue with Destroyers getting a bit of that Moritat flavor since the Moritat can only ever join Destroyer Squads. Also, they'll get 2 plasma shots per marine as opposed to the maximum 12 a Moritat can get so he'd still be able to vomit out up to 6 Dual Plasma Pistol equipped marines worth of fire.

 

The DG Relic and Mech Character with Rad Furnace and Rad Grenades basically means you have a walking -3T duo on the table and, if Cult Levy squads are problem for you, can instantly erase anything with T3 by just touching them.

 

100 Conscripts a problem? Not when T0 means they all die at the literal start of the combat phase.

[Mazryonh]

I have no real issue with Destroyers getting a bit of that Moritat flavor since the Moritat can only ever join Destroyer Squads. Also, they'll get 2 plasma shots per marine as opposed to the maximum 12 a Moritat can get so he'd still be able to vomit out up to 6 Dual Plasma Pistol equipped marines worth of fire.

 

The DG Relic and Mech Character with Rad Furnace and Rad Grenades basically means you have a walking -3T duo on the table and, if Cult Levy squads are problem for you, can instantly erase anything with T3 by just touching them.

 

100 Conscripts a problem? Not when T0 means they all die at the literal start of the combat phase.

 

Plasma Vomit (though at pistol range) from Plasma-pistol-armed Destroyers sounds like a good idea on paper, but then wouldn't taking a Tactical Support Squad with Plasma Guns be cheaper, have better range, and go in a Troops slot? I think Poisoned Ammo might be more characterful and not require them to change the sprue.

 

What about giving the Destroyer Squad power weapons for a flat cost? They already did that for Ashen Circle (by giving them all power weapons as standard).

[Slips]

Well, rumor has it that the BA Special Destroyers all have 2 Volkite Serpentas and a Chainsword and can swap that chainsword for a power weapon on a model-by-model basis so if that unit is a testbed for future destroyer updates (alongside Ashen Circle), then we might see the option at some point.

 

While true about plasma support squads and plasma destroyers, theres nothing really stopping FW from giving them more unique pistol-options-as-special-weapons.

[Laughingman]

 

 

Have recentl gotten a chance to play against the recently reworked palatine blades in ZM and can confirm that when equipped with all equipped with artificer armor they are scary prospect, for regular power armored infantry to fight, though they had a surprisingly hard time eating through WS5 Vets... 

 

Destroyers probably still need to be buffed, in terms of shooting, they probably need either poisoned ammunition, or some sort quasi rending (AP3/AP2) mechanic... In close combat they would probably benefit from having defensive grenades at the vary least, inducing lolz when they randomly blind some kitted out close combat unit

 

Palatine Blades having a hard time with WS5 vets? Were those Palatine Blades not using Sonic Shriekers? If they were they should have cleaned house with the Vets fairly soon.

 

If Destroyers had Poisoned Ammunition it would have to be Poisoned 3+ or better to outperform their basic S4 bolt pistols, which is actually the same as the Poison from their Phosphex Bombs, making the latter a little redundant (aside from not having to roll to-hit) and short-ranged by comparison.  Defensive or Blind Grenades would make them more interesting however, complementing their Counter-Attack rule nicely.  You should send that idea along to Forge World as feedback.

 

 

 

They did not have Sonic Shriekers (it was a friendly game anyway) so he ended up hitting me on 4s while I was hitting him on 3s per the dark angels "mastery of the blade" ability ... The squad lasted longer then I predicted, taking a full two turns before fleeing with three dudes left...

 

 

 

[Mazryonh]

Well, rumor has it that the BA Special Destroyers all have 2 Volkite Serpentas and a Chainsword and can swap that chainsword for a power weapon on a model-by-model basis so if that unit is a testbed for future destroyer updates (alongside Ashen Circle), then we might see the option at some point.

 

While true about plasma support squads and plasma destroyers, theres nothing really stopping FW from giving them more unique pistol-options-as-special-weapons.

 

Hmm, if the BA unique destroyers can get that much, then I agree with you that the Basic Destoyers will probably follow suit on the Power Weapon front.

 

They did not have Sonic Shriekers (it was a friendly game anyway) so he ended up hitting me on 4s while I was hitting him on 3s per the dark angels "mastery of the blade" ability ... The squad lasted longer then I predicted, taking a full two turns before fleeing with three dudes left...

 

So the Palatine Blades weren't buffed out with all their options? Were they at least carrying Phoenix spears? Palatine Blades are generally best on the charge, not getting stuck in drawn-out combats.

[Cadmus Tyro]

So, took the iron tenth on an outing the other night to try out the immortals. It’s hard to say after just one game but they felt “right”, not super elite but durable, so they fit the fluff, ie a group of die hard failures trying to prove themselves.

 

Chargers still suffer with the same problem of being slightly better bolters, but larger numbers combined with preferred enemy (from Morr) and deflagrate racked up a few more kills. 2pts per charger seems more reasonable for the upgrade.

 

Hoping to get more games in soon!

 

Cadmus

[Harrowmaster]

So, took the iron tenth on an outing the other night to try out the immortals. It’s hard to say after just one game but they felt “right”, not super elite but durable, so they fit the fluff, ie a group of die hard failures trying to prove themselves.

 

Chargers still suffer with the same problem of being slightly better bolters, but larger numbers combined with preferred enemy (from Morr) and deflagrate racked up a few more kills. 2pts per charger seems more reasonable for the upgrade.

 

Hoping to get more games in soon!

 

Cadmus

 

Did you get to use gun them down(?) at all? How was it?

[Cadmus Tyro]

Unfortunately not, they got bogged down in combat with two Thallax squads and a stubborn Ld10 archmagos. Held them in place while Autek Morr worked his way through them.

[Harrowmaster]

Unfortunately not, they got bogged down in combat with two Thallax squads and a stubborn Ld10 archmagos. Held them in place while Autek Morr worked his way through them.

 

Unfortunate, the rule is actually useful now, haven't heard how it works out in practice though

[Cadmus Tyro]

The rules always been useful when running with Morr (he can’t sweep as he is in Cataphractii armour), it’s just much more effective now.

 

I’m considering running them with Ferrus Manus, their mass 5+ invulnerables, cheap base cost and FNP 5+ will help absorb attacks from elite units while the Primarch does the killing.

[smhf15]

One idea would be to give the bolt pistols shred and rending to make the shooting more efficient.  If you were interested in borrowing from 40k, you can do a Cypher thing where you can also shoot in combat using your pistols.  Now if you're looking at 3 S4 (versus T3 if you make the rad missile affect the unit) attacks with reroll wounds  + chance to ignore armor.

 

If you still wanted to increase CC ability, make it so they shoot again with pistols in combat instead of fighting with the pistols.  Now you're still looking at 2 S4 shred/rend, but also 3 S4 attacks each plus the sgt's melee weapons.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

So they're all Kaedes Nex lol.

 

Destroyers already come with rad grenades btw 

[Mazryonh]

So, took the iron tenth on an outing the other night to try out the immortals. It’s hard to say after just one game but they felt “right”, not super elite but durable, so they fit the fluff, ie a group of die hard failures trying to prove themselves.

 

Chargers still suffer with the same problem of being slightly better bolters, but larger numbers combined with preferred enemy (from Morr) and deflagrate racked up a few more kills. 2pts per charger seems more reasonable for the upgrade.

 

Hoping to get more games in soon!

 

Cadmus

 

When you do, take a moment to tell us if you managed to use Gun Them Down and whether you would have preferred to Sweeping Advance instead.

 

One idea would be to give the bolt pistols shred and rending to make the shooting more efficient.  If you were interested in borrowing from 40k, you can do a Cypher thing where you can also shoot in combat using your pistols.  Now if you're looking at 3 S4 (versus T3 if you make the rad missile affect the unit) attacks with reroll wounds  + chance to ignore armor.

 

If you still wanted to increase CC ability, make it so they shoot again with pistols in combat instead of fighting with the pistols.  Now you're still looking at 2 S4 shred/rend, but also 3 S4 attacks each plus the sgt's melee weapons.

 

Like SkimaskMohawk said, that might be taking away from some of Kaedes Nex's unique abilities. Something a little more unique might be to give basic Destroyer Bolt Pistols the ability to inflict Poison 3+ (possibly including Rending), and allow regular Destroyers to fire their Poisoned Bolt Pistols twice per model at 6 inches or less, while giving them all access to power weapons. They still need unique gear to really fill in that "no-holds-barred" anti-infantry firepower though. For instance, giving Dark Angels Destroyers access to Molecular Acid Rounds for their Bolt Pistols would really up their game.

[Gorgoff]

I guess poisened pistols would be enough. Power weapons would ruin their gunslinger look.

Just give the option to take TWO Plasma Pistols for every three dudes and it'll be fine.

 

Edit: I have an idea.

What if the unit could make some sort of special RAD attack in lieu of shooting?

Something like that:

 

Range 8" S1, AP3. Poisened (6*+), Haywire, large blast, Assault 1

*for every Destroyer after the first giving up their regular shooting, the digit is reduced by one to a maximum of 3+

Whatdoyamean. :)

[rendingon1+]

Interesting, but what would the background? It looks a bit like guard psyker squad attack from the older editions. I like it though.

 

If it was just a template I would call this specail rule "rad fart". Go figure how it works fluffwise :)

[Cadmus Tyro]

 

 

 

So, took the iron tenth on an outing the other night to try out the immortals. It’s hard to say after just one game but they felt “right”, not super elite but durable, so they fit the fluff, ie a group of die hard failures trying to prove themselves.

Chargers still suffer with the same problem of being slightly better bolters, but larger numbers combined with preferred enemy (from Morr) and deflagrate racked up a few more kills. 2pts per charger seems more reasonable for the upgrade.

Hoping to get more games in soon!

Cadmus

 

 

When you do, take a moment to tell us if you managed to use Gun Them Down and whether you would have preferred to Sweeping Advance instead.

 

I can do, but I don’t think comparing gun them down to sweeping advance is that simplistic unfortunately. As I’ve previously stated I tend to run a 15 man immortal squad with Autek Morr. He prevents the unit from sweeping, but provides synergistic bonuses to the unit in the form of Preferred enemy and fearless. So “gun them down” is an additional bonus to a unit that could never make a sweeping advance move after winning combat.

 

Secondly, iron hands have to take a leadership test before making a sweeping advance move, so there is a distinct possibility that you won’t be able to, even if you have the option. Again, gun them down does not require a leadership test.

 

So, I can tell you now, without play testing, that gun them down is better, because the unit (Autek more plus x15 imortals charging out of a Spartan) most likely to win combat can’t actually sweep after combat.

 

Cadmus

[Gorgoff]

Interesting, but what would the background? It looks a bit like guard psyker squad attack from the older editions. I like it though.

 

If it was just a template I would call this specail rule "rad fart". Go figure how it works fluffwise :)

They throw their Rad grenades to create a vortex of high pollution. The more they throw the more devastating it gets. :)

[Rabidbunneh]

There Is a fan made heresy terminator destroyer unit, I think the Mournival event made them, the unit has a one use Rad blast that gives all units within 6" -1T. Something like that so you could set up strong combos would be interesting.

[Mazryonh]

I guess poisened pistols would be enough. Power weapons would ruin their gunslinger look.

Just give the option to take TWO Plasma Pistols for every three dudes and it'll be fine.

 

Edit: I have an idea.

What if the unit could make some sort of special RAD attack in lieu of shooting?

Something like that:

 

Range 8" S1, AP3. Poisened (6*+), Haywire, large blast, Assault 1

*for every Destroyer after the first giving up their regular shooting, the digit is reduced by one to a maximum of 3+

Whatdoyamean.

 

I think it would be more characterful (and similar in power to your suggestion) if there was an option to have the Destroyer Sergeant throw a "danger close" Phosphex Bomb right at his feet should he and his squad get Sweeping Advanced or otherwise overrun and their model count is below a certain threshold. You would almost certainly lose your Destroyer Squad in the ensuing Phosphex cloud, but it would also affect whatever was overrunning them. It would even make sense from a fluff standpoint, because to be a Destroyer is to be a dead man walking even if the enemy never hits or finds you--all that Rad and Phosphex weaponry Destroyers use sooner or later affects them cancerously.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

I guess poisened pistols would be enough. Power weapons would ruin their gunslinger look.

Just give the option to take TWO Plasma Pistols for every three dudes and it'll be fine.

 

Edit: I have an idea.

What if the unit could make some sort of special RAD attack in lieu of shooting?

Something like that:

 

Range 8" S1, AP3. Poisened (6*+), Haywire, large blast, Assault 1

*for every Destroyer after the first giving up their regular shooting, the digit is reduced by one to a maximum of 3+

Whatdoyamean.

I think it would be more characterful (and similar in power to your suggestion) if there was an option to have the Destroyer Sergeant throw a "danger close" Phosphex Bomb right at his feet should he and his squad get Sweeping Advanced or otherwise overrun and their model count is below a certain threshold. You would almost certainly lose your Destroyer Squad in the ensuing Phosphex cloud, but it would also affect whatever was overrunning them. It would even make sense from a fluff standpoint, because to be a Destroyer is to be a dead man walking even if the enemy never hits or finds you--all that Rad and Phosphex weaponry Destroyers use sooner or later affects them cancerously.

Another good idea.

Hopefully some day we'll see book 8 and have a look at the special stuff Destroyers get from the... forgot the name. Those anti psyker shinanegans.

[Brad_hutcho]

Has anyone tried rapier batteries with the new rules? I know they've got large blast now, but number of shots is reduced. So, are they still any good, or would it be better filling that elite slot with something better like Termies or a contemptor. I mean, I know since all marine armies are built from the same list, it doesn't matter much in marine vs marine battles. But now it seems like the rapier has been made weaker for the same points, therefore benefitting any non marine armies such as Mechanicum

[StruManChu]

Being a long time proponent of the greatness of Destroyers in my local group, I'm definitely not opposed to any of the upgrades you guys are proposing. Special Ammo, more/different rad or phosphex stuff, power weapons, all of this (or event just some, would be amazing).

 

However. Having played a game with a full squad of ten jump packing dudes over the weekend, I don't know if this discussion takes into account how much better they've actually become with these changes. Are we looking for ways to make them an auto-include rather than just better? Because they're genuinely much better than I've ever seen them before.

 

The combined lower points cost, extra attack and existing rad grenades is huge. With an attached Chaplain, I shot and charged a 16/17 man Tac squad (it was late game, so casualties) and wiped it off my opponent's deployment zone objective, robbing him of a VP and giving me on for Linebreaker. Extra attacks meant more chances of hitting successfully, and Rad Grenades meant those hits were more likely to turn into wounds.

 

Now, I definitely rolled well, and he definitely botched his saves, but the sheer weight of dice these guys put out (plus the re-rolls from Chappie's Zealot) made them incredibly effective. As much as it would be fluffy and cool to have them with those other upgrades mentioned above, and I'm definitely not arguing against them, don't lose sight of the fact that Destroyers are demonstrably better on the table now than they've ever been.