When are Daemons getting to play Kill Team?

[bozo69pd]

So while I have a lot of Nurgle all over the board... my true love are the Nurgle Daemons. Any idea when our Codex will get some participation?

[Panzer]

Maybe once they get new units that actually fit the Kill Team format lol

[WarriorFish]

Yeah I wouldn't hold your breath :confused:

[RandyB]

Along side TDA, I predict.

[Panzer]

Yeah I wouldn't hold your breath

 

Well that would be considered murder or at least assault anyway. :teehee: :P

[WarriorFish]

Wouldn't that be suicide? Originally I would have said daemons didn't fit the theme of KT in small teams up to mischief behind enemy lines, but now we have the Commanders expansion it feels that theme has weakened, even so still quite a bit more of a stretch to include daemons in KT. It likely doesn't help that they'd probably have to do each god as a separate faction, but you'd have very limited options which would be a bit boring unfortunately especially with quite a bit of flavour being lost in translation for existing factions as a disappointing benchmark.

 

So even if it ever did happen (and I very much doubt that), you might be disappointed

[Panzer]

Wouldn't that be suicide? Originally I would have said daemons didn't fit the theme of KT in small teams up to mischief behind enemy lines, but now we have the Commanders expansion it feels that theme has weakened, even so still quite a bit more of a stretch to include daemons in KT. It likely doesn't help that they'd probably have to do each god as a separate faction, but you'd have very limited options which would be a bit boring unfortunately especially with quite a bit of flavour being lost in translation for existing factions as a disappointing benchmark.

 

So even if it ever did happen (and I very much doubt that), you might be disappointed

 

If you would hold his breath? I think you'd have a hard time to explain it as a suicide case. :D

 

Theme-wise Daemons would be fine, they are just lacking the units imo. Basically everything from Slaanesh aside of basic Daemonettes is out of question due how fast it is for example.

[bozo69pd]

I would assume it would just be simple infantry, beasts, and swarm units. Like Bloodletters + Flesh Hounds, Horrors + Screamers, Etc. Sure it could get bland fast, but that's several units to mix and match if you play undivided as well.

[N1SB]

Brother, at the risk of asking the obvious, would you consider the Gellerpox Infected? They include basically funky Plague bearers and funky Nurglings, with Nurgle Ogryn essentially

[bozo69pd]

Brother, at the risk of asking the obvious, would you consider the Gellerpox Infected? They include basically funky Plague bearers and funky Nurglings, with Nurgle Ogryn essentially

Yes, but I am trying to find a good deal on Ebay. Also... I am really liking the khorne mini's in the wrath and rapture set. I really want a Kill team of those guys haha.

 

Edit: Just bought an Ebay Gellerpox bundle.

[WickedJester1013]

I like to think GW has something planned for daemons, some people say it’s because options but I would say that’s worse necrons they have a warrior, immortal, sniper , and Flayer with the only option for customization being 1 of 2 possible immortal guns.

[CommodusXIII]

Wouldn't that be suicide? Originally I would have said daemons didn't fit the theme of KT in small teams up to mischief behind enemy lines, but now we have the Commanders expansion it feels that theme has weakened, even so still quite a bit more of a stretch to include daemons in KT. It likely doesn't help that they'd probably have to do each god as a separate faction, but you'd have very limited options which would be a bit boring unfortunately especially with quite a bit of flavour being lost in translation for existing factions as a disappointing benchmark.

 

So even if it ever did happen (and I very much doubt that), you might be disappointed

 

I could see a Chaos cult summoning a handful of daemons, once they grow strong enough, to cause panic and confusion.  Or a pack of daemons being sent as terror troops to kill a high-value target.

 

And there would be no fewer options than Kroot or some of the other factions:

 

Khorne:  Bloodletters and Fleshhounds, maybe Bloodcrushers

Tzeentch:  Three flavors of Horrors, Flamers, maybe Screamers

Nurgle:  Plaguebearers, Nurglings, maybe Plague Drones or Beasts

Slaanesh:  Daemonettes, Fiends, maybe Seekers

All:  Heralds as Commanders.  Champions, musicians, and icon-bearers as sub-options/wargear upgrades.  Possibly access to aligned Furies?

 

Some of these delve into the Elites and Fast Attack unit types, but there's precedent for stretching the "Troops only" guideline.  For example, Space Marines have access to Reivers, and Kill Team: Elites hasn't even been released yet.

[Panzer]

 

Wouldn't that be suicide? Originally I would have said daemons didn't fit the theme of KT in small teams up to mischief behind enemy lines, but now we have the Commanders expansion it feels that theme has weakened, even so still quite a bit more of a stretch to include daemons in KT. It likely doesn't help that they'd probably have to do each god as a separate faction, but you'd have very limited options which would be a bit boring unfortunately especially with quite a bit of flavour being lost in translation for existing factions as a disappointing benchmark.

 

So even if it ever did happen (and I very much doubt that), you might be disappointed

 

I could see a Chaos cult summoning a handful of daemons, once they grow strong enough, to cause panic and confusion.  Or a pack of daemons being sent as terror troops to kill a high-value target.

 

And there would be no fewer options than Kroot or some of the other factions:

 

Khorne:  Bloodletters and Fleshhounds, maybe Bloodcrushers

Tzeentch:  Three flavors of Horrors, Flamers, maybe Screamers

Nurgle:  Plaguebearers, Nurglings, maybe Plague Drones or Beasts

Slaanesh:  Daemonettes, Fiends, maybe Seekers

All:  Heralds as Commanders.  Champions, musicians, and icon-bearers as sub-options/wargear upgrades.  Possibly access to aligned Furies?

 

Some of these delve into the Elites and Fast Attack unit types, but there's precedent for stretching the "Troops only" guideline.  For example, Space Marines have access to Reivers, and Kill Team: Elites hasn't even been released yet.

 

 

To be fair Kroot only got added via White Dwarf and for just the base game I wouldn't include things like Fiends and Seekers etc. as they are WAY too fast for such a type of game.

There never was a "Troops only" guideline as you mention yourself with Reivers. It was always about what's reasonable in a small squad skirmish game.

[CommodusXIII]

Well, given the state of the Daemon model line, a Kroot-style White Dwarf entry might be the most you get.  It's still better than not being represented at all, though.

[bozo69pd]

Maybe with the new Elites expansion they will add all this??

[Cheex]

Daemons would need a pretty special treatment to work in the theme of Kill Team. The only way to really justify them would be to summon them onto the table.

 

One thing I would love to see for Kill Team is an "adversaries" mode - rather than focusing on a handful of heroic pseudo-characters, you could have a small army that the enemy Kill Team has to fight through. Sort of like the OG Kill Team rules from 3rd edition, where one player had a Kill Team and the other had 3-man squads of sentries and a main villain.

 

Daemons would work perfectly in such a mode. It makes me think of the awesome diorama on the back of the old Daemonhunters codex, where a small Grey Knights squad was surrounded on all sides by Khorne Daemons.

[bozo69pd]

Daemons would need a pretty special treatment to work in the theme of Kill Team. The only way to really justify them would be to summon them onto the table.

 

I disagree. Warp storms happen all the time leaving small pockets of daemons that have to be cleared out of areas. Rogue Traders would run into them whenever their gellar field would malfunction etc.

 

I think every single 40k novel I have ever read has had a squad of astartes or eldar form up and clear out some daemons.

[Cheex]

 

Daemons would need a pretty special treatment to work in the theme of Kill Team. The only way to really justify them would be to summon them onto the table.

 

I disagree. Warp storms happen all the time leaving small pockets of daemons that have to be cleared out of areas. Rogue Traders would run into them whenever their gellar field would malfunction etc.

 

I think every single 40k novel I have ever read has had a squad of astartes or eldar form up and clear out some daemons.

 

 

The main thing I have a problem with is specialisms. Without much in the way of special weaponry, specialisms make little sense - even moreso when lesser daemons aren't really known for their personalities.

 

Which is why I suggested the "adversaries" mode. You could easily use this kind of system to represent a local daemonic incursion led by a Herald or similar. In the original Kill Team, one player had a proper KT and the other had what essentially amounted to an "NPC" force, and the KT was tasked with eliminating the enemy leader or sabotaging something important, etc. Having a dedicated expansion to this style of play could be a lot of fun, I think.

[WickedJester1013]

Eh I feel like all the arguments I hear are not that strong. I see daemons enter from the wrap in a tear in reality so to speak. The bigger the tear the more daemons, the smaller the tear the smaller amount of daemons. Many times in the lore there are stories of daemons Seaking some I know artifact or a young pysker for unknown nefarious means.

 

Plus all daemons have a personality you just never hear about the same way you don’t hear about every ork, every marine etc. Skull taker for example was a prarticulry bloody and dangerous blood letter. I would argue they have more personality then the necron kill teams.

[Cheex]

Eh I feel like all the arguments I hear are not that strong. I see daemons enter from the wrap in a tear in reality so to speak. The bigger the tear the more daemons, the smaller the tear the smaller amount of daemons. Many times in the lore there are stories of daemons Seaking some I know artifact or a young pysker for unknown nefarious means.

 

Plus all daemons have a personality you just never hear about the same way you don’t hear about every ork, every marine etc. Skull taker for example was a prarticulry bloody and dangerous blood letter. I would argue they have more personality then the necron kill teams.

 

The scale of KT doesn't bother me. Daemons definitely work at this scale.

 

Regarding personality, daemons are a bit too limited. Lesser daemons are little more than the most basic aspect of their god. Your example of Skulltaker is a good example: bloodletters are only ever shown as simply various shades of angry, and Skully just stood out as being on one far end of the scale. Heralds and higher might be more interesting, but I'm yet to see an example of interesting lesser daemons.

[bozo69pd]

Yeah I understand what you are saying, however each daemon does have its own name and true name. They still toil all day in their gods work, blood for the blood god, or rot glorious rot. Heralds just get more spotlight because their models are actual characters such as epidemius and Horticulous.

[WickedJester1013]

Also i believe heralds are lesser daemons that basically earned the favor of their patron god? You could say your daemon kill team is like a Deamon olympics, a team completing against each other for some reason to earn favor of their god.

 

At the end of the day, I don’t think kill teams are the perfect setting for daemons, but GW could have totally fit them in.

[CommodusXIII]

Daemons have more personality than Termagants, at least.

[Panzer]

You guys are talking about narrative reasons, but I don't see the problem there. My problem was mechanically.

Without any form of Elite supplement only the basic daemons really fit into Kill Team so that leaves you with a horde of not so cheap squishy melee guys and Horrors. If you mix the gods it's okay-ish but really, not everyone wants to play mixed gods. I'd actually say those people are in the minority.

 

What else than the basic Daemons do we have?

 

Beasts of Nurgle: S4 T5 W5 and 1d6 attacks with D2. That's way above what else we have in the core rules for Kill Team where the most durable thing is a Stealth Suit (and Necrons if you roll well I guess). By the time you get rid of T5 W5 Sv5++ with a 5+++ you already table most other teams.

Blood Crushers: A bit less tanky than the Beasts with only T4 W4 Sv4+/5++ but hits waaay harder and is twice as fast. Not just is it hard to take out, it's in your face pretty much immediately and starts ripping teams apart. Good luck trying to alpha strike this one before it hits your lines with the terrain density in kill team and the additional to-hit penalties.

Fiends: As usual the slightly less killy and durable but oh so much faster sibling of the Blood Crusher. At M14 and the ability to charge after advancing it can be strike basically anywhere it wants at any time except for the upper floors on ruins (which would suck since kill team is often also a very vertical game). However compared to the Blood Crusher it always has D2 on its weapon so I'd say in Kill Team it's not that much less killy.

Flamers: a unit with M12 and AP-1 flamer that bypasses all the to-hit penalties in kill team and thus makes the most interesting aspect of it, positioning, useless. Eh. Possible since it's damage output isn't that huge and it's not that tanky compared to the other three but also doesn't quite fit I'd say.

 

Flesh Hounds: Those would be fine I guess. At M10 T4 W2 Sv5++ they aren't really faster or more resilient than Stealth Suits and their damage output isn't super huge at 2(3) S4 AP-1 D1 attacks either.

Plague Drones: Same problem as above with the Beasts of Nurgle, but additionally it can also shoot, has more melee attacks and can FLY. Just no for a core rules team.

Screamers: Pff yeah right. M16, FLY, damages units by just flying over it and has 3 S6 AP-3 D2 attacks. That's essentially a "hide behind LoS blocking terrain and point at target to remove" unit. A big no for Kill team.

Seekers: Well those are really fast at M14 but they are basically just expensive Daemonettes ... I want to say those are fine as well?

Hellflayer: Do I really have to mention why that's a big nope? M12 T5 W6 and lots of attacks before even doing the bladed axle. Not to mention that the base is probably way too big to be practical on kill team maps. Either it rolls over enemy armies or it's useless because it can't move.

 

Not going into the Heavy Support options as that's basically just the smaller Slaanesh chariot, the Tzeentch chariot and the Khorne cannons.

 

Most of these would be fine for the Elite supplement, but I don't see that happening without having a working team in the core rules first as those supplements are usually optional (and thus often ignored by many players, like the Commander one).

[WarriorFish]

If Custodes are (curb?) stomping around in KT I don't see why daemons can't be included too. It's a bit disappointing as a lot of what I liked about KT was the small scale where your lowly sergeant (or equivalent) was the closest you had to a hero, but if that theme has been removed then it's just a case of mechanics. I don't think it's too hard to work in if they wanted to, might be a bit lighter on choice but some existing factions are too. I'm still not convinced GW will add daemons, but there's nothing holding that back now.