Blackshields - worth it?

[HighMarshalAmp]

For 2pts, you get the standard +1A +1Ld and have to heroically intervene which, honestly, I'd do anyway given the chance.

3A usually mean I give that model a Power Weapon.

 

But my Vets have SBs and I've only given them Chainswords because SBs aren't modeled two handed.

Only the Sergeant has a Power Weapon.

 

Now I'm wondering... is it worth having 3 Blackshields across the troops when those troops are meant to make use of SIA as much as they can?

Especially when dropping them and their Power Beatsticks would take me below the 1000pts I had been aiming for and missed by only a few pts?

[anarchistscourge]

I always take Black shields in my vet squads. I give them a SB and then a power sword to give a little umph in CC and make use of the +1A

[Kallas]

I think it'd be solid, assuming that you have a Vanguard and Biker, which is pretty standard for big units of Veterans.

 

Intervene, Fight, Fall Back, Shoot, then Charge. That seems pretty damn solid for a unit of Troops!

 

It is a little bit of a double edged sword, though, because you must Intervene if possible, so the enemy can bait you into intervening to avoid Overwatch.

[anarchistscourge]

With the standard loadout for 10 vets (assuming vanguard, SS and SB, power sword here or there) they would generally be silly to bait into making you heroically intervene.

If they haven't declared you as the charge target (not likely considering they are baiting you) then they wont get to attack you but you can attack them, and then fall back on your turn, shoot, and if you have a biker also charge. Even if they did nominate you as a charge target and you heroically intervene, chance are the squad will soak up a fair amount of hits on the SS

[HighMarshalAmp]

Okay, I'm sold.

Bummer though, now I have to paint fancy shoulder pads after all, I was kinda hoping I could just do every pad black...

 

Regarding tactics, I don't see the Vets as my main source of... well, anything but CP, really.

I think I'm gonna run them MSU, no VVs and no Bikers (although I really do fancy Bikers and have yet to find a place for them in any list and army I have), but if push comes to shove, I think 3 hits with an axe beat 3 with a Chainsword.

And the intervening... If anyone charges one of my shoot units, I've done something wrong anyway and the more guys hit back, the better, right? The Overwatch of 10 SIA shots (20 if I play it right) should be a deterrent anyway. I hope.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like to have one squad which both the Watch Sergeant and Black Shield have a storm shield and thunderhammer... total of 6 attacks.

[Kallas]

With the standard loadout for 10 vets (assuming vanguard, SS and SB, power sword here or there) they would generally be silly to bait into making you heroically intervene.

If they haven't declared you as the charge target (not likely considering they are baiting you) then they wont get to attack you but you can attack them, and then fall back on your turn, shoot, and if you have a biker also charge. Even if they did nominate you as a charge target and you heroically intervene, chance are the squad will soak up a fair amount of hits on the SS

That's if the bait unit charged. A unit of Genestealers could just sit 2" away, avoid the overwatch, and they'd still be able to fight. They'd go after any charging units, but as it's their turn, they fight before the Veterans unless you interrupt after an actual charging unit, costing you CP.

 

It's also possible that they could use it with something tougher, like a melee monster (eg, Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, etc) which is going to take barely any damage from the Veterans' melee and still get to bypass the more dangerous overwatch (especially things like Frag Cannons).

[anarchistscourge]

 

With the standard loadout for 10 vets (assuming vanguard, SS and SB, power sword here or there) they would generally be silly to bait into making you heroically intervene.

If they haven't declared you as the charge target (not likely considering they are baiting you) then they wont get to attack you but you can attack them, and then fall back on your turn, shoot, and if you have a biker also charge. Even if they did nominate you as a charge target and you heroically intervene, chance are the squad will soak up a fair amount of hits on the SS

That's if the bait unit charged. A unit of Genestealers could just sit 2" away, avoid the overwatch, and they'd still be able to fight. They'd go after any charging units, but as it's their turn, they fight before the Veterans unless you interrupt after an actual charging unit, costing you CP.

 

It's also possible that they could use it with something tougher, like a melee monster (eg, Hive Tyrant, Daemon Prince, etc) which is going to take barely any damage from the Veterans' melee and still get to bypass the more dangerous overwatch (especially things like Frag Cannons).

 

How would the genestealers still be able to fight? The idea of them avoiding overwatch means they cant declare a charge against the veteran squad. So then we heroically intervene, and because the veterans weren't declared as part of the charge, they can't be targeted by the genestealers.

Same thing goes for the tougher units like hive tyrants. The situations were having a black shield being detrimental to the DW player are negligible and well worth the +1 attack and being able to heroically intervene.

 

Okay, I'm sold.

Bummer though, now I have to paint fancy shoulder pads after all, I was kinda hoping I could just do every pad black...

 

Regarding tactics, I don't see the Vets as my main source of... well, anything but CP, really.

I think I'm gonna run them MSU, no VVs and no Bikers (although I really do fancy Bikers and have yet to find a place for them in any list and army I have), but if push comes to shove, I think 3 hits with an axe beat 3 with a Chainsword.

And the intervening... If anyone charges one of my shoot units, I've done something wrong anyway and the more guys hit back, the better, right? The Overwatch of 10 SIA shots (20 if I play it right) should be a deterrent anyway. I hope.

 

If your running MSU of veterans with SB, you will always be getting 20 shots with SIA, whether you moved or not, as the charging unit will always be in 12".

I see vet squads as the workhorse of my lists, with the amount of SIA you get with storm bolters and the durability of them with SS means they really put the work in. The primaris fortis squads are more like a scalpal, where i point them at specfic targets.

I would also love to get some bikes in but always seem to have trouble in the 2k range, Id rather get more vets or primaris

[Kallas]

How would the genestealers still be able to fight? The idea of them avoiding overwatch means they cant declare a charge against the veteran squad.

Because a unit doesn't need to have charged during your own turn to fight? How is this new to you?

 

So then we heroically intervene, and because the veterans weren't declared as part of the charge, they can't be targeted by the genestealers.

Totally incorrect. GW has FAQ'd to clarify that, yes, you can intervene without anything charging. The Genestealers didn't charge, so they can attack anything in range (pile in then 1", like normal).

 

So, let's go over this again:

* Melee unit (eg, Genestealers) moves/advances/whatever right up next to the Veterans with a Blackshield

* They don't charge, because the Blackshield forces the Veterans to intervene, thereby avoiding overwatch

* All charging units fight, if there are none then all non-charging units fight alternately, starting with the player whose turn it is

 

Same thing goes for the tougher units like hive tyrants. The situations were having a black shield being detrimental to the DW player are negligible and well worth the +1 attack and being able to heroically intervene.

They're negligible if you don't understand the rules...

[BrotherAetherick]

If genestealers are 2 inches out you don't have to get within 1 inch and get slaughtered. Heroic Interventions state you can move 3", and if you do you must move closer to closest enemy model (like pile ins and consolidations). Although you are forced to intervene, nowhere does it state that you must move the full 3" are move into combat. 

 

The only situation where you may be forced into combat is if somone moves within exactly 1" away from you, then any movement you make during your forced HI would technically bring you within 1".

 

In addition, since not many units have HI, its unclear whether every model even has to move to consider the unit "performing a heroic intervention or not". For example, if the genestealers move exactly 1" away, can you just shuffle a few models at the back forward and still stay out of combat? RAW it seems this is the case as the unit itself has "performed a heroic intervention" as some models have moved forward (just not close enough to get into combat).

 

Anyways, I always try to fit them in. Even if you do have to get into combat, it allows you to make space for characters to heroically intervene as you get to shuffle your vets first and make space for your character bases to fit to get within an inch. Also since your vets are blocking a lot of space for your opponents pile ins, you get to minimize the number of enemy models that get to fight your characters (if they were declared as well).

[Kallas]

If genestealers are 2 inches out you don't have to get within 1 inch and get slaughtered. Heroic Interventions state you can move 3", and if you do you must move closer to closest enemy model (like pile ins and consolidations). Although you are forced to intervene, nowhere does it state that you must move the full 3" are move into combat. 

 

That is actually a very good point.

[anarchistscourge]

 

How would the genestealers still be able to fight? The idea of them avoiding overwatch means they cant declare a charge against the veteran squad.

Because a unit doesn't need to have charged during your own turn to fight? How is this new to you?

 

So then we heroically intervene, and because the veterans weren't declared as part of the charge, they can't be targeted by the genestealers.

Totally incorrect. GW has FAQ'd to clarify that, yes, you can intervene without anything charging. The Genestealers didn't charge, so they can attack anything in range (pile in then 1", like normal).

 

So, let's go over this again:

* Melee unit (eg, Genestealers) moves/advances/whatever right up next to the Veterans with a Blackshield

* They don't charge, because the Blackshield forces the Veterans to intervene, thereby avoiding overwatch

* All charging units fight, if there are none then all non-charging units fight alternately, starting with the player whose turn it is

 

Same thing goes for the tougher units like hive tyrants. The situations were having a black shield being detrimental to the DW player are negligible and well worth the +1 attack and being able to heroically intervene.

They're negligible if you don't understand the rules...

 

 

Firstly I think there is some misunderstanding going on. I am fully aware you can intervene without anything charging, and didn't mention anything to the contrary.

 

Secondly where in the rulebook does it state "Because a unit doesn't need to have charged during your own turn to fight?".

It quite clearly states in the Fight phase section that NO attacks can be allocated to a unit, unless you declared it as a charge target, thats what makes heroic intervention useful as you can get in and attack but they can't unless they declared the unit that is intervening as a charge target

[BrotherAetherick]

 

 

 

Firstly I think there is some misunderstanding going on. I am fully aware you can intervene without anything charging, and didn't mention anything to the contrary.

 

Secondly where in the rulebook does it state "Because a unit doesn't need to have charged during your own turn to fight?".

It quite clearly states in the Fight phase section that NO attacks can be allocated to a unit, unless you declared it as a charge target, thats what makes heroic intervention useful as you can get in and attack but they can't unless they declared the unit that is intervening as a charge target

 

 

That rule only applies when a unit has charged that turn. If a unit does not charge and gets heroically intervened into, or a unit is already locked in combat at the beginning of the fight phase (from a previous turn example), they can still fight.

[Kallas]

Secondly where in the rulebook does it state "Because a unit doesn't need to have charged during your own turn to fight?".

It quite clearly states in the Fight phase section that NO attacks can be allocated to a unit, unless you declared it as a charge target, thats what makes heroic intervention useful as you can get in and attack but they can't unless they declared the unit that is intervening as a charge target

 

In the Charge Phase:

"Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."

 

It's the inverse of what you're saying. It doesn't restrict you to attack if you charge, it restricts you if you charge.

[anarchistscourge]

Understood, thanks for clarifying. Basically works the same way as if a unit consolidates into you 

[Mobius0288]

So this whole bait thing is pretty situational in practice but lets summarize this if we can. And honestly it's because your opponent doesn't usually pay attention to which units actually have blackshields. Critique the post and maybe we can make it a sticky or something since it's a unique consideration for Deathwatch.

 

--Blackshield Considerations--

 

Heroic Intervention says after your opponent charges in the charge phase, you can move up to 3". It doesn't say you have to move within 1" of your opponent. This occurs at the end of the charge phase. Blackshields have the Heroic Intervention rule and must do so when able.

 

Fight phase criteria: Any unit that has charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen in the fight phase.

 

**Opponent Charge phase**

- They charge > you overwatch > end within 1" of a unit (charge phase)

 

**Opponent Fight phase**

- Choose only the unit(s) that charged or are within 1" of > "pile in" to units (optional) > fight (charged units only fight declared units) > consolidate (optional) (alternate fighting after charges)

 

**Situations**

-- They move within 3" > other units charge (or they don't) > you heroically intervene within 1" >> both units fight

-- They move within 3" > other units charge (or they don't) > you heroically intervene outside of 1" >> no one fights

-- They move just outside 1" of your unit > other units charge (or they don't) > you must heroically intervene (putting you inside 1") >> both units fight

 

**Disadvantages to consider**

- If the 1" requirement is broken before your unit is selected to fight, you cannot fight

-- You remove a model as a casualty before your turn

-- Your opponent does not consolidate within 1"

 

Your opponent can force you to fight and lose models without charging. A Veteran Vanguard would mitigate some of the damage loss by allowing you to fall back and shoot on your following turn.

 

 

For the OP's consideration, I would generally take a blackshield when I have a small 5 man unit with power weapons (kitted for storm bolters and close combat) and if I have a large kill team built with veteran vanguards. Not recommended with special/heavy weapons unless you have termies and/or storm shields galore.

[Mr4Minutes]

Some good strategic discussion on using black shields and negating their biggest weakness.

 

I myself do like running them. I find the threat of a heroic intervention more of a deterrent to my opponent then to me. With a VV and biker in a squad full of storm shields, most things are hesitant to get stuck in with them.

 

Basic kit I use is SB/PW to take advantage of the extra attack. I also second Black Oranges watch sgt and black shield rocking thunder hammers.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is fairly easy to position models so a charging enemy unit cannot reach the Black Shield unit nor declare it as a target to charge using a screening unit.

[GrinNfool]

As others have noted a blackshield can hurt you depending on the loadout of the squad and how knowledgeable your opponent is.  A lot of people don't know the heroic intervention is forced, so they don't try to abuse it.  In such cases the blackshield is just a nice upgrade to a squad.  However IMHO they are not auto includes, and should only be put on squads that are happy to fight in melee.  Like you have at least 1 VVs a sgt and a black shield all with reasonable load outs for melee, and the rest of your squad isn't decked out for range.  IE a 5 man SB/SS squad is not the place for a black shield nor is a squad with frag cannons as you want that overwatch on both squads because of fire power. 

 

Due to how deathwatch generally play that means the vast majority of squads you would field wouldn't want a blackshield, as it would be a negative.  Getting 1 extra melee attack isn't worth missing out on 20 wound on 2 overwatch shots or the frag cannon auto hits especially when you are spending points.  A good opponent who understands how your black shields work will park his cultists or genestealers or *insert any other melee squad* at the minimum distance from your models force you into him avoiding your overwatch, then will select that unit to fight with.

 

A blackshield works best in a non traditional DW squad that you want to be a close combat squad that can serve multiple rolls but doesn't care about missing overwatch.  Something like say maybe a VV a term, sgt w/ combi melta/cc weapon of some kind black shield w/ something similiar etc. A few stormshield vets that maybe get SBs.  Maybe a term with the melta-fist thing.  Basically something that is a jack of all trades squad, can split fire at targets that are appropriate and doesn't care if it ends up in melee, and if it survives can just back out and shoot anyways.  Whether you can make that an effective use of points or not is another matter, but that is the kind of squad a blackshield belongs in.  That or you make a vet squad built completely for melee not sure again how effective that is but its an option because DW.  No secret our real power is shooting though.

 

Honestly outside of fighting guard, tau, finishing some squad off thats down to a couple models, or just trying to stop a unit from shooting,  I think we need to accept marines aren't that great in melee, their stats aren't good for it.  2 attacks base and even 3 on a sgt is just... meh for as small as marine squads are.  Unless marines get 3 base with sgts and black shields hitting 4 I don't think thats going to change.  Til then they are serviceable in a pinch, but its not their strength this goes double for DW because of SIA.

 

All that said do what sounds fun to do, just be aware of pitfalls.  God knows I do some dumb stuff just because.  I have been known to run a VV hvy thammer shoved into my 4 bikers, or a vet with hvy t.hammer, b. shield and sgt w/ power fists jumping out of a razor back because screw common sense.  Nothing better than seeing a hvy t.hammer smack 12 wounds off a knight because dice, the powerfists smacking it for another 6-8, and your opponent just saying golly gee just happened.  Or the VV jumping up and smacking a flyer out of the sky with the hvy t.hammer.  Moments like these are what help make 40k great, not all the meta nonsense.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I had a vet squad take down Swarmlord who was down to around seven wounds which was virtually a gamer winner. I agree though if you are just running shields and stormbolters then best to leave him up on the barge.

[Trevak Dal]

I don't know if 3 attacks is worth it. If I were to be worried about a combat unit, id take a Vanguard vet unit running behind with lightning claws or something.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s a good option but doesn’t fill the same role.