What is our best flexible anti-tank options?

[angrom]

Hey, I was looking into the codex and our regular killteam and intercessor units are more than enough to cover

the horde and MEQ counter.

However when it comes to deal with vehicles in the long distances I am looking at different options.

What do you think is the best in term of points/efficiency/survivability ?

 

I see a lot of people playing intercessor team with hellblasters and a agressor for denying malus when moving

 

but because of the storm shield cost decrease I was thinking, do you think adding some termi with cyclone missile launcher  to a 5 vet with storm bolter/storm shield is a better options?

Adding just one normal termi will allow to allocate wounds with no modifier to the 2+ save (1+ in cover) and it is still an extra storm bolter

the 5 men with storm shields will tank some good anti MEQ firepower and 2 cyclone missile is 4 * 36" str8 D6 damage that can also deal with hordes if needed

 

On the other side intercessor brings more wounds but no invu save in the squad.

 

So what is the best?

 

A unit of 5 vets storm botler, 1 termi storm bolter and 2 termi cyclone is (261) pts for 11 wounds 2+ 3++ and 24 storm shots with 4 str8 D6.

[anarchistscourge]

I take a CML terminator and put him in a 5man squad of Stalker Pattern Boltguns that sit in the back. Other options are as you said some Hellblaster Intercessor teams, or what seems really popular and works very well are a couple of TLC/ML Ven Dreads. If your not opposed to forgeworld and can get it in the list a Contemptor Mortis with 2x TLC and CML could do alot of work

[xenomortis]

As mentioned above - Ven dreads with TLC/ML work well.

 

Also, the stalker squad with termie cyclone missile launcher and a heavy bolter for the Hellfire Shells stratagem.

 

Back up the above with a Watch Master using the Tempest Shells stratagem and you've got a potent little backfield castle.

 

Hellblasters are nice, especially teleporting in backed up by a Watch Master to make overcharging a little safer.

 

Don't discount TLC razorbacks, they add a nice bit of punch.

 

If you want to go for something from forgeworld and I would strongly recommend a leviathan dreadnought. All of its weapons are very powerful, especially when combined with Mission Tactics and Doctrines.

[anarchistscourge]

Oh yeah completely forgot about the Leviathan. A good option is 2x Storm cannon Arrays, thats 20 shots at Str7, AP-2, 2D hitting on 2's at full wounds. Very versatile as it will chew through infantry and can put dents in armour.

 

As said there are TLC razorbacks, which i personally dont use as I feel our army wants to move up a bit (not too much a problem now with Bolter Beta). You could always stick a cheap vet squad in there to help protect the back lines.

 

Also dont discount the amount of shots from SIA and Frag Cannons. if its T7 you can use the +1 to wound strat to hit on 3's and wound on 4's, which can take a few wounds off. The fragcannons auto hit and put out so many shots, they are great against flyers and light armour, but do the job against tougher stuff too (again better with +1 to wound strat)

[Mobius0288]

A Relic Sicarian Battle Tank is also a flexible choice to consider - Assault 8, -1 AP, 2Dmg.... ignores modifier to hit against flyers, and a couple of heavy bolters or lascannons depending on if you camp it.

[vigitant]

I've done pretty well with chaplain venerable lascannons for spot-AT.

But my list mostly just ignores knights and similar platforms.  Just need enough AT to pop transports and the odd dreadnought equivalent.

VenDreads are great, but vulnerable.
Some people like double melta termie cpts, and its a unit im going to be testing out myself soon.

Helblaster KT's are still a terrific choice.
Smash cpt's, super-clavis relic on a watchmaster, chaplain ven in melee are all great backups, as well.

[Shas Oh Dear]

I second the chaplain dreadnought, although they're quite expensive in comparison to say a mortis contemptor which I'd say it the most efficient AT we have point for point. The chaplain dreadnought is practically immortal against most enemies because of character key word.

[Chris521]

For mono DW, I rely on dreadnoughts for AT.  Relic Contemptors and normal Contemptors with lascannons and missile launchers are my goto.  If I need an elite choice for the relic, I'll take the standard las/ML Venerable.

[angrom]

What about a kill team deep striking with the stratagem as such:

2 vet with storm bolter and shields, 3 vet with shield and combi melta  so total of 5 storm shields, 2 vet with combi melta, 2 termi with storm bolter and power sword to suck the 0 to 1 ap, 1  wounds. 1 vanguard to fall back and shoot.

That's 275 pts for 5 combi melta with mission tactics and access to our stratagem for more reliable wounding.

The storm bolters can be used to clean some screen or support fire other units.

 

Good or bad idea?

[spacewatch]

What about a kill team deep striking with the stratagem as such:

2 vet with storm bolter and shields, 3 vet with shield and combi melta  so total of 5 storm shields, 2 vet with combi melta, 2 termi with storm bolter and power sword to suck the 0 to 1 ap, 1  wounds. 1 vanguard to fall back and shoot.

That's 275 pts for 5 combi melta with mission tactics and access to our stratagem for more reliable wounding.

The storm bolters can be used to clean some screen or support fire other units.

 

Good or bad idea?

 

I have been thinking the same and I think it is possible to build veteran based DS AT-unit that is comparable (in the same price range) to some good long range AT-unit (say Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought). But there are things for (+) and against (-) doing so:

- you lose turn 1 shooting due to DS

+ your DS unit is safe from turn 1 shooting

- you probably cannot RF-shoot best targets turn 2 due to screens

+ probably can get good line of sight to juicy targets turn 2 if enemy is aggressive (advances aggressively)

- you burn 1 (DS) + 2 (doctrine) strategems just to shoot effectively once

- you probably shoot just once before wiped from the table or tied into endless melee (regardless of VVet)

+ can keep your DS unit in teleportarium and use it as a objective grabber/character killer/other tactical strike unit when needed.

So it depends on your strategy whether single DS AT-Vetran unit is good idea or not. Overall single drop-kill-heroically die DS-AT unit is questionable idea (IMO) because for it to be succesful it requires that enemy makes some kind of mistake in screening, but this is just what I have experienced so far. I personally prefer long range AT i.e. two TLC-ML Ven Dreads and SBP+ML Veteran unit because this way single strategem (WotA) can boost several units at the same time. I also have few combi-melta, combi-plasma and power fist Veterans in my squads, just in case.

[angrom]

 

I have been thinking the same and I think it is possible to build veteran based DS AT-unit that is comparable (in the same price range) to some good long range AT-unit (say Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought). But there are things for (+) and against (-) doing so:

- you lose turn 1 shooting due to DS

+ your DS unit is safe from turn 1 shooting

- you probably cannot RF-shoot best targets turn 2 due to screens

+ probably can get good line of sight to juicy targets turn 2 if enemy is aggressive (advances aggressively)

- you burn 1 (DS) + 2 (doctrine) strategems just to shoot effectively once

- you probably shoot just once before wiped from the table or tied into endless melee (regardless of VVet)

+ can keep your DS unit in teleportarium and use it as a objective grabber/character killer/other tactical strike unit when needed.

So it depends on your strategy whether single DS AT-Vetran unit is good idea or not. Overall single drop-kill-heroically die DS-AT unit is questionable idea (IMO) because for it to be succesful it requires that enemy makes some kind of mistake in screening, but this is just what I have experienced so far. I personally prefer long range AT i.e. two TLC-ML Ven Dreads and SBP+ML Veteran unit because this way single strategem (WotA) can boost several units at the same time. I also have few combi-melta, combi-plasma and power fist Veterans in my squads, just in case.

 

I see your point and I kind of think the same but from a different perspective:

 

1) in the current meta even knights are not safe on the table anymore so arriving at full strength and taking down some interesting target that is worth their cost is an advantage.

 

- you probably cannot RF-shoot best targets turn 2 due to screens

2) I think because they come on turn 2, we can use our other kill teams on the board such as bikes that I play as well to prepare the terrain for them cleaning off screens

 

- you burn 1 (DS) + 2 (doctrine) strategems just to shoot effectively once

3) This is true, however it might not always be necessary. depending how tough is the target the mission tactic can be enough. I would keep the 2 cp strat for titan like target

I am particularly looking at these pesky hyve guard shooting from out of line of sight.

Also I think it is almost mandatory to run deathwatch with imperial 32 these days considering how much our codex relies on stratagems.

 

- you probably shoot just once before wiped from the table or tied into endless melee (regardless of VVet)

4) I think in most cases juicy targets are kept close to some terrain that players use to improve their screen saves. If there is any tall building it is the perfect landing spot even in the middle of the other player deployment zone. with the new idiotic rules forbidding any unit to charge you unless they can fit on your platform you are usually safe and the storm shield and 2 termi in cover will probably take a lot of your opponent resources to deal with.

If some of them survive you can always bring them back to your deployment zone thanks to the termie in the unit with the bikes teleport homer.

 

I think for their cost they are quite strong if we are not talking about auxiliary knight or allied detachment.

 

The only thing I'm scared off is their cost in points for potential effectiveness to take down priority targets such as titans.

[Black Knight]

If you can wait a week or two, maybe we will be able to take the new suppressors with the autocannons?

[spacewatch]

 

I see your point and I kind of think the same but from a different perspective:

 

1-2) Good points, I agree. I was just thinking my last couple of games where there were so massed screens (Orc Gretchins) that even two turns of shooting did not eliminate them all.

3) Yep, Impaler cannon is annoying and has long range too. Don't know what is best tactic against Hive Guard but sometimes I have had success with dakka Corvus transporting hammer Vanguards.

4) This is interesting, I did not think at this way and I entirely forgot teleport homer. Hmm... dual-use unit is actually brilliant idea. You first DS and cause pain and havoc. Then unit fights and survives and next turn what is left of it can be teleported backfield to hold some objective. This in turn frees unit that was holding that backfield objective to advance and engage battle. Got to try this tactic sometime.

5) Regarding cost vs. effectivenes against titans. Well, your Kill-Team has good balance of shooting power and survivability but I'm afraid it cannot one-shot titanic unit alone. Even if you give plasmagun or meltagun to everybody it would be unlikely. However, if your unit manages to shoot twice then, together with some supportive lascannon fire, there's a good chance to drop that titanic unit.

[Mobius0288]

 

What about a kill team deep striking with the stratagem as such:

2 vet with storm bolter and shields, 3 vet with shield and combi melta  so total of 5 storm shields, 2 vet with combi melta, 2 termi with storm bolter and power sword to suck the 0 to 1 ap, 1  wounds. 1 vanguard to fall back and shoot.

That's 275 pts for 5 combi melta with mission tactics and access to our stratagem for more reliable wounding.

The storm bolters can be used to clean some screen or support fire other units.

 

Good or bad idea?

 

I have been thinking the same and I think it is possible to build veteran based DS AT-unit that is comparable (in the same price range) to some good long range AT-unit (say Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought). But there are things for (+) and against (-) doing so:

- you lose turn 1 shooting due to DS

+ your DS unit is safe from turn 1 shooting

- you probably cannot RF-shoot best targets turn 2 due to screens

+ probably can get good line of sight to juicy targets turn 2 if enemy is aggressive (advances aggressively)

- you burn 1 (DS) + 2 (doctrine) strategems just to shoot effectively once

- you probably shoot just once before wiped from the table or tied into endless melee (regardless of VVet)

+ can keep your DS unit in teleportarium and use it as a objective grabber/character killer/other tactical strike unit when needed.

So it depends on your strategy whether single DS AT-Vetran unit is good idea or not. Overall single drop-kill-heroically die DS-AT unit is questionable idea (IMO) because for it to be succesful it requires that enemy makes some kind of mistake in screening, but this is just what I have experienced so far. I personally prefer long range AT i.e. two TLC-ML Ven Dreads and SBP+ML Veteran unit because this way single strategem (WotA) can boost several units at the same time. I also have few combi-melta, combi-plasma and power fist Veterans in my squads, just in case.

 

 

I've considered a lot of these points as well for a very similar squad... I run:

- 2 combi-melta/chainsword

- 3 storm bolter / storm shield

- 1 Deathwatch Frag Cannon

- 2 storm bolter / power sword termies

 

Quite a good a unit, semi-versatile and the melta is redundant to ensure damage. Usually my warlord hunting squad but can double as a vehicle or support against horde-ish units.