Vanguard Primaris and BA

[Charlo]

So the rules leaks are out for the new Vanguard Primaris. The only thing we're missing is the Concealment Psychic Discipline.

 

Link to rules: https://imgur.com/a/OpJx7yg

 

So what do my BA bros think?

 

Suppressors are an obvious standout, being able to stop overwatch against our choppy guys and adding another Jump pack key word unit to our arsenal.

 

Eliminators don't feel very "BA", but they're rather strong. A good way to take out/ weaken key characters.

 

Infiltrators may well be the best[/] Astartes Troops choice in the game upon release. They get to infiltrate, deny enemy infiltrators/ deep strikers in a HUGE radius, can wound anything on a 6 and also get an Apothecary too! While they'll probably be a bit pricy, these guys are Scouts+3.

 

The Characters I'm still out on, they're okay. Again it depends on the Psychic powers. The Captain will be hard to shift without ignores cover however. S4 on his gun makes it eh.

[Panzer]

I'll just quote myself from the NRA thread as I just made that post. ^^
 

Alright guess I missed the big leak while I was winning against Tyranids yesterday so time to take a look at it now. ^^

• Captain. Kinda eh. Just a re-roll caddy for your other infiltrating units but otherwise I'd take a regular Primaris Captain or a Gravis Captain intead any day of the week.
• Lieutenant. Same as a regular Lieutenant but with deep strike. Also instead of a power sword he has just a close combat weapon anybody has per the core rules and a crappy knife fighting special rule.
  Considering that regular Lieutenants already are overpriced for what little they do I don't think I'd EVER take this one.
• Librarian. 100% depends on the psychic powers. As is there's not really a reason to take him over a regular Primaris Librarian (or a Librarian Dreadnought in my case ).
• Infiltrators. Kinda neat? 12" anti reserves bubble is great against enemies who want to charge out of deep strike. The few that could actually reliably do that. Otherwise there's usually only very little space to deep strike the first 1-2 turns anyway so I think people are overvaluing it a bit.
  The ability to infiltrate is great however. I hope GW knows what they did by giving Marines the ability to deploy half of their army 9" away from the opponent turn 1. That's a lot of T4 W2 Sv3+ bodies shooty armies have to get rid of in their first turn if they don't want to get their non-FLY units charged and have their whole army trapped in their deployment zone lol. Against melee armies you don't want to do that though as they'll rip you a new one so in that case taking Intercessors for your deployment zone would've been the better choice.
  The not-apothecary offers some nice conversion potential.
  Overall I'm not big on the sneaky theme for my Primaris army so I prefer Intercessors with their AP-1 and Powersword on the Sergeant, but I think I'm going to add one Infiltrator unit for conversion and tactical reasons though.
• Eliminators. Still not impressed. Like at all. However they are cheap, can infiltrate, have a small profile at 3 models and are rather durable in terrain with their +2 to cover saves and the ability to shoot at targets without letting themselves be seen.
  I might add a min sized unit to hug an objective forever and maybe I'll get one or two lucky shots off (just yesterday my Repulsor did 16 damage turn 1 on a T8 Tyranid beast with just his 4 Lascannons while he was only hitting on 5s due psychic shenanigans and those floaty guys ...).
• Surpressors. I like them. I don't think they'll be better than Inceptors but I'll take a unit for some variety. Also because I still haven't bought Plasma Inceptors so I'm only playing with the Bolter variant currently lol.
  I don't value their surpressing fire very highly though as Primaris simply don't have proper melee options yet and unless you charge T'au, a mean flamer unit or a unit with tons of dakka overwatch often isn't that scary anyway. And against the currently popular T'au castle it doesn't do that much either as with some luck you can kill a Firewarrior in like 3 units (assuming you're playing a unit of 3 Surpressors) but that doesn't prevent the Riptides, Broadsides, Commanders and all the Drone units nearby to user their FtGG ability. Actually I'm not even 100% sure if it stops the other two Firewarrior units from using their FtGG ability either but I'd have to check the wording for that and I'm simply too lazy right now.

I'm still not sure if I want to buy the boxset but I'm at least strongly considering it. Wouldn't hurt me to wait a bit for the regular release either though.

 

[lash144]

Can someone please explain to me why everyone is so hyped by this overwatch denial rule? :D

I mean things I'm concerned to charge in because of overwatch are things with mean autohitting weapons like Hemlocks or Yvahras and of couse a Tau castle. But I'm not worrying about some firewarriors taking potshots but those Riptides, Broadsides etc.

 

Also a good point raised by panzer:

First they nerf all deepstriking and infiltrating into the ground and now you could easily deploy your whole army 9" away from your enemy?! golly gee? ^^

[lash144]

Also this anti deepstrike bubble could be very bad for us if many imperium armies start to incorporate it.

[Nova_Dew]

big question is, can we even take them? GW might do the whole only CSM only thing like they did for the vets in book 1, all we've seen is the data sheets after all

[Charlo]

big question is, can we even take them? GW might do the whole only CSM only thing like they did for the vets in book 1, all we've seen is the data sheets after all

 

We've been given access to every other Primaris unit thus far. No reason they'd deprive themselves of sales by cutting out a chapter at this point!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Charlo, Infiltrators are all the hype. Being able to wound anything on a to hit roll on an unmodified 6 is brilliant. It completely bypasses toughness. a S4 weapon hitting and auto wounding a T5+ model is awesome. And that's going to happen 1/6th of the time!

If the Suppressors get alternate weapon load outs like Onslaught Gatlin Cannons, Las-Talon's, and not being a hard 3 count; are what I'm looking forward to. I wish it were if you wound the model not kill a model in the unit to suppress overwatch. Looking at you knights/tides/everything else!~

The humble captain sitting back on a board edge to deny deepstrike etc. in your own deployment zone is also very appealing! 

Primaris Snipers are still snipers, just better, curious to see more rules on them after the release!

[Charlo]

I suppose we'll find out in a few hours, but I don't think the Suppressors are going to get a second weapon option. At this late in the release cycle it would be weird to include a push-fit of a new model in a box set then the full kits a little later like they did with wave one Primaris

 

Then again, who knows?!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Agreed. I'm still holding out hope that the heavy plasma variant for hell blasters becomes 2shots or +1 damage for a S8 D2 S9 D3 (overcharge)

we probably wont get something quite so great as a unit that can just pump out Onslaught Gatling Cannon rounds!

[Panzer]

I really don't value the auto wounds on 6s that high. Infiltrators simply don't have the volume of shots to utilise it properly and to shoot at a target you'd otherwise have troubles wounding is just a terrible idea. For the most part it's simply a regular Bolter.

[Majkhel]

But man, they look good :) The Eliminators that is.

I hope and really believe that Suppressors will get additional weapon options.

Their models are the most awkward of the whole Primaris lot though. I think I'll be modelling them standing on the ground.

[Xenith]

See, and I really wanted to paint my Primaris as Flesh Tearers, and they go and do this.

 

Not a single chainsword among them.

 

I do really like the releases, though. I'll probably end up getting the box and split it between my BA and IW. 

[Panzer]

I have really trouble justifying a unit of Infiltrators in my Knights of Baal army as I already go all-in on the stealthy theme with my T'au and wanted to focus on a Knight theme with my BA where light armored stealthy guys don't really fit all that much (those 10 Reivers are an exception and represent Sanguinary Guard in my army for now) ... but having a cheap-ish infiltrating ObSec unit is just a great tool in your toolbox and I love the opportunity to do something fancy with the not-apothecary. 

[happyslugger]

I was initially going to buy 2 boxes, one for my BA and one for my son's UM, whilst restarting my black legion. Now I've seen what's in there, I am just going to wait until I catch up on my outstanding painting. I'm really hoping that some units more aligned to BA are released in the future. Also want a new mephy and Dante.

[Cruor Vault]

I really don't value the auto wounds on 6s that high. Infiltrators simply don't have the volume of shots to utilise it properly and to shoot at a target you'd otherwise have troubles wounding is just a terrible idea. For the most part it's simply a regular Bolter.

 

The weapon is incidental, it's the 12" anti-DS bubble that's important.  2-3 units of those guys makes it impossible to charge a Space Marine castle out of deepstrike, which is huge.

 

Can someone please explain to me why everyone is so hyped by this overwatch denial rule?

I mean things I'm concerned to charge in because of overwatch are things with mean autohitting weapons like Hemlocks or Yvahras and of couse a Tau castle. But I'm not worrying about some firewarriors taking potshots but those Riptides, Broadsides etc.

 

Also a good point raised by panzer:

First they nerf all deepstriking and infiltrating into the ground and now you could easily deploy your whole army 9" away from your enemy?! ? ^^

 

Because people are overreacting.  It's a shiny new (theoretically awesome) ability that would be AMAZING for many armies, but people forget that marines don't do charges outside of a few things like Angels Wing captains or Guilliman.

[Panzer]

 

I really don't value the auto wounds on 6s that high. Infiltrators simply don't have the volume of shots to utilise it properly and to shoot at a target you'd otherwise have troubles wounding is just a terrible idea. For the most part it's simply a regular Bolter.

 

The weapon is incidental, it's the 12" anti-DS bubble that's important.  2-3 units of those guys makes it impossible to charge a Space Marine castle out of deepstrike, which is huge. 

 

The anti-DS bubble is overvalued imo. Against some armies it is gold but most can't reliably charge out of deep strike anyway.

[Bonzi]

As a BA player I'm pumped for Infiltrators. I can now put my troop tax units directly on the frontline to immediately support my aggressive assault units. No longer will my DC and Sanguinary Guard be alone, I will have other bodies to help screen my ancient, cap, and Sanguinor. I can also use a pair of Infiltrators to keep an advance landing zone open for DS units and to screen away enemy Infiltrators. This is the role I hoped Reivers could play until GW nerfhammered turn 1 DSing.

 

Primaris are no slouches in combat and I generally have several buff units on the frontline anyway that will benefit these guys in both shooting and CC.

 

Inceptors reign supreme for backfield camping but I don't play BA to see my troops on the backline. I'm excited to drop 15 to 20 Primaris 9" from my opponent turn one, then move up all my jumpers to the same range and force my opponent to decide how they want to die before I drown them in red power armor.

[Xenith]

As a BA player I'm pumped for Infiltrators. I can now put my troop tax units directly on the frontline to immediately support my aggressive assault units. 

 

Pretty much this. 2A 2W troops in the opponents face turn 1? What's not to like?

 

My feeling is that these rules were written before the Chapter Approved change to all similar rules, like Alpha legion, who went from deploying outside 9" away to a free move before turn 1.

[Panzer]

I rather think they are underestimating the difference between infiltrating a bunch of Scouts and infiltrating a bunch of Infiltrators with BA.

It's not comparable with the changes to Alpha Legion & Co because that's a Stratagem that lets a unit that isn't originaly supposed to be able to infiltrate do it while this unit has it as special rule on the datasheet the same way as Scouts, Nurglings, Stealth Suits etc and so really is supposed to be able to do it. ^^

[Remtek]

Not a big fan of aesthetics of primaris jump pack models   and i really hope we get some more close combat oriented units. The new scouts are gonna be really useful with the 12" deny.

[Majkhel]

Ideas for Suppressors' conversion are crystallizing in my head.
- Bigger ammo supply for one thing as what they have now looks ridiculous - there's more ammo in the belt feed than in that container on their backs. Perhaps a box magazine instead of the belt feed? Or something based on the HB Devastator backpack?
- Proper jump-packs. They have "Grav-chute" rule, but they also have "Jump Pack" keyword, so no harm done if I change that.

Also I'm definitely planting them on the ground. Possibly shaving off those things they have on their feet.

 

I'm also glad that I will be able to easily convert Reivers I have and do not use to make myself more Infiltrators. 

[Captain Caine 24th]

Heavy infiltration seems like immediate board control and early objective grabbing. As they largely prevent deep strike, fast moving counters or allied artillery may be needed. Having infiltrators out front will keep characters alive per closest unit shooting rule. I suppose you might have a screen of infiltrators out front of mephiston and librarian dreadnoughts. Ive always liked the idea of every unit in an army serving a purpose(s) not just a tax. In these new units I'm hopeful they will be my new troops having tactical depth in several layers, not just sitting on an objective. Preventing overwatch is very powerful. Remember, most units are lackluster in the datasheet... It's the stack of stratagems that get wild.

[happyslugger]

I have ten reivers I am yet to put together...anyone think there could be conversion opportunities for these into the new scout type troops?  I have deliberately left them alone to see what happens with them moving forwards..

[Xenith]

So, now we have Jump Packs in heavy support also. All we need is a jump packed troop choice and we're golden!

 

With this release focussed around the sneaky sneaky, do you think we'll see separate Primaris releases dealing with Hellblaster Chamber and Inceptor Chamber?

 

I'd really like a Inceptor captain. 

I have ten reivers I am yet to put together...anyone think there could be conversion opportunities for these into the new scout type troops?  I have deliberately left them alone to see what happens with them moving forwards..

 

Stick intercessor boltgun arms onto the reiver bodies? Works for me. 

[happyslugger]

So, now we have Jump Packs in heavy support also. All we need is a jump packed troop choice and we're golden!

 

With this release focussed around the sneaky sneaky, do you think we'll see separate Primaris releases dealing with Hellblaster Chamber and Inceptor Chamber?

 

I'd really like a Inceptor captain. 

I have ten reivers I am yet to put together...anyone think there could be conversion opportunities for these into the new scout type troops?  I have deliberately left them alone to see what happens with them moving forwards..

 

Stick intercessor boltgun arms onto the reiver bodies? Works for me. 

 

Was thinking about using the bolt carbine loadouts and adding bits (scopes etc).  Then again, reivers may become useful at some point lol