What will the Lion do when he wakes?

[Berzul]

Hello, my learned brothers.

 

A couple of days ago I was at my local store, and a few of the guys were talking about how GW is supposed to have two Primarchs appear. One going from Chaos back to the Imperium, and a loyalist one turning heretic.

 

They were arguing on the matter, not only as it stands to the state of the lore of the game, but also from a business perspective. Their general idea being that it would be generally simple to move a Primarch from Chaos to the Imperium, as his forces can still remain in the Chaos side for the most part, with plenty of gods and entities to follow and worship. The redeemed Primarch can receive new warriors in the form of Primaris units. There would still be players left hurt by having their Primarch change teams, but the impact might not be THAT big in the grand scheme of things, as players would most likely be able to collect a new form of Loyalist marines, while still being able to play Chaos Marines of the God of said Primarch's allegiance. Going the other way may be trickier, they figured, since the shift would have a bigger impact in the overall structure of the game.

 

In the conversation, the suggestion came up for different Primarchs to switch to Chaos, and everyone agreed that the Lion was absolutely NOT the Primarch to turn heretic.

 

I found it funny, as it seems to me that, from a strict business stand point, if one current Primarch was to return as a traitor, the Lion would be a good choice. And, before you take me to my cell in the Rock for a lenghtier discussion on the subject with Brother Asmodai, allow me to explain, while clarifying that I am NOT proposing the Dark Angels should betray the Imperium. Just that, from a business stand point, it might make sense.

 

Simply put, I am of the feeling that, of all of the different chapters out there, this one is the one that most strongly rejects, resents, and distrusts Primaris Marines. As I have seen in stores and read in the forums, seems like Dark Angel's players gather the biggest number of old-school marine loving traditionalists out there. As the game moves more and more from Primaris, and farther and farther away from old marines, the idea of these conflict reaching a point of schism seems at least credible.

 

The Dark Angels are also a legion almost, with the successor chapters organized in such a way as to still be a legion in all but name, when compared to other more codex-compliant chapters. We have a different structure and organization, a different approach to combat, and a more distant stance when dealing with other loyalist forces. Not to mention our own secrets and brush with heresy in the past.

 

So, if the Lion was to wake up to reject Guilliman's new Imperium, and his Primaris Marines, it could lead to the Chapters of the Dark Angels to a form of unification, being reborn as a Legion once again. One that would reject the new Imperium, and the Primaris that are now everywhere.

 

Maybe the Primaris Successors of the Dark Angels would remain loyal to the Imperium. Perhaps even with a Primarized Azrael as Chapter Master? Meanwhile, the old guard of the Legion could follow the Lion, maybe with Cypher revealing himself and becoming the Chapter Master to a new faction in the Chaos side, as the Fallen go from being an Elite Choice of the Chaos Space Marines, into a Chaos Space Marine army all of its own.

 

You'd push the story forward, giving Primaris loving players their own room as a Chapter inside of the Imperium, while at the same time giving the players that actually hate the Primaris models a way to retain their armies and continue to play them. You could add a new faction of Chaos to the game, by turning the fallen into an army of their own with its own codex. That could lead to new models, new players, and a lot of added consumers and business, both on the Loyalist and the Heretical side of the game.

 

With Luther out of his cell, and with Cypher's latest shennanigans, as well as other plot points that have taken place, I wonder if this could be one of the directions the lore of the game is headed.

 

The thing is, I am definetly NOT one of the most learned players out there in the ancient and current story of the Chapter.

 

What do you guys, who are more learned than me, think of the whole thing?

 

What would the Lion do upon waking up to Guilliman's Imperium?

[UtariOnzo]

The Lion from the lore first and foremost was loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor’s ideals, if not necessarily the man. It his him that coined the phrase “loyalty is its own reward.” I suspect he would have strong words in private with his brother, after sorting the crap hole that is the state of the Unforgiven, as well as probably a visit to ol’ papa.

 

I highly doubt he would join Chaos and the traitor legions, especially considering how he’s the reason a lot of the homeworlds of the traitors are dead now. Hearing whispers on the grapevine about future lore developments are, well, exactly that. Whispers and rumours, with about as much substance as the hype we’d see the lion return for our 8th ed codex (and the hype levels from that was pretty damn high)

 

Overall, I honestly think it’s more likely they’d release a second loyalist primarch to balance mortarion/magnus rather than some convoluted ‘side swap’ and that the Lion would be at the forefront of a much changed Unforgiven. I don’t think he’d be all too pleased to see his legion’s name and honour tarnished by their questionable ferverence to capture the fallen

 

Regarding Primaris, frankly I think giving the community options to totally avoid them to protect their internal headcanon or miniature biases isn’t the way GW is going to want to operate, it wants to sell them so it’s going to make them relevant to all SM players as much as the casual collectors. In terms of the Lion, honestly I don’t know how he’d view them personally, probably something on the same lines as Guilliman. Abominations of the Emperor’s work by the wayward techpriest, but useful none the less

[bevulf]

Well, the last thing Lion saw 10 000 years ago was his best friend betrayed him and turned to the Dark Gods. There is no possible way or room for his betrayal of the Imperium, Utterly loyal went asleep and will awake in the same mental state.

 

Adding to that I am truly tired of these jokes about DA being traitors. People who completely do not know 1st legion lore and fluff keep saying these jokes over and over again.

 

Those guys at store had probably veeeery loose conversation - I do not think GW will ever try to choose any primarch to switch his allegiance

[Isual]

I think Lion would be pissed as f*** if he wakes up and realizes that RG is "warmaster" now  .

[Nomus Sardauk]

(Lion wakes up, yawns, stands up, stretches and hits an intercom to the Grand Master's Office)

 

"Hey kiddo, it's me, what have I missed?

 

...

 

What? Whoa-whoa-whoa, slow down, slow down! Huh? What do you mean they blew up the Death Star? you created a 10-Millennia long conspiracy covered up Luther's :cuss and murdered anyone who even came close to finding out?!

 

...

 

What the hell is an Ordo Hereticus?!"

[Gederas]

(Lion wakes up, yawns, stands up, stretches and hits an intercom to the Grand Master's Office)

 

"Hey kiddo, it's me, what have I missed?

 

...

 

What? Whoa-whoa-whoa, slow down, slow down! Huh? What do you mean they blew up the Death Star? you created a 10-Millennia long conspiracy covered up Luther's and murdered anyone who even came close to finding out?!

 

...

 

What the hell is an Ordo Hereticus?!"

Okay, no lie, I could honestly see the Lion having that response. Because while he's had his secrets, the stuff his sons have pulled in the intervening 10 millennia blow his out of the water.

 

Also, "What the hell is an Ordo Hereticus?!" is brilliant, and I could actually see Lion El'Jonson thinking that, if not saying it.

[shabbadoo]

GW will release an insanely large model of The Lion, because he will be the first Primarch to undergo the Primaris Protocol.  What will be discovered is that, when you apply the Primaris Protocol to the Emperor's special Primarch genome, the increase is not arithmetic, but exponential! The new Lion will be the size of the Leviathan Dreadnought. He will be the first over-powered Dark Angels model, ever, such that even the most beardiest cheesiest bastards in the world will throw up a little bit in their mouths when they first see his stats. He will be GW's first £100 (€150, $300 US, $900 AUS) infantry model.

 

The Lion will emerge form the darkest depths of The Rock, and call together all Inner Circle members from all Unforgiven Chapters.

 

The Lion will order all Unforgiven to undergo the Primaris Protocol, as "primaris" refers to "highest quality" and "first of importance", and the Dark Angels are...ahem...were the First Legion after all (and GW wants to sell lots of the newer models, so...fluff). Azrael will raise concerns about doing this, but when the Lion asks, "Are you questioning the judgement of your Primarch?" the memory of the name "Chaplain Nemiel" will surface in his mind, and he will back the effort wholeheartedly. The Primaris Protocol will result in the loss of forty percent of the Unforgiven's strength, but this will be offset by all of them now having +1 Wound (or more!), better boltguns, and other stuff, so it turns out to be better than breaking even! The Unforgiven will also get the first Primaris Jetbikes and Terminators, they being full-blown Ravenwing and Deathwing kits, and the new Deathwing Dreadnought kit will be the first to sport a full panoply of weapon options. Last, but certainly not least, the Unforgiven will unleash  Belisarius Cawll's newest creation - the Subjugator Land Raider, capable of transporting the new Primaris Terminators and equipped with a Minok Turbo Laser and Annihilus Pattern Plasma Arrays. Everyone will lose their $#@! when they see the models. Dark Angels players will either love the new models or continue to agonize over convincing themselves to buy into the whole Primaris thing. That The Lion ordered it further increases their consternation, most often expressed simply as, "%$#@!!!!"

 

The Lion will show up on Guilliman's doorstep with a sealed letter addressed to Guilliman written at the time of Imperium Secondus. It will simply state, "I knew you would eventually pull some $@#! like this. - The Lion."  The Lion will then take stock of The Imperium, look at Guilliman and say, "Okay, you get a pass. For now. You stay here and manage this...mess, and I'll go out and put the sword to stuff." The Lion, with his newly enhanced Legion...er Chapters...goes on a spree of annihilation the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Great Crusade, as Gav Thorpe will be be given carte blanchitsu to write The Lion to be more awesome than anything has a right to be. The Lion will even manage to find some vague way to make use of the cross-purpose equipped Primaris units (he is a tactical genius after all), but even still it only works in novelization, not in-game. The Lion will lay waste to hundreds of Chaos warbands, and will even succeed in pushing back the tide of the Immaterium in certain areas of Space.

 

Dark Angels fan bois will sprout up throughout the community, but at the next Las Vega Open after The Lion's release, one player will manage to rules lawyer TWO of The Lion into his army list...somehow.. The generated outrage will result in 153 tournament player injuries, twenty maimings, four deaths, and twelve players will be listed as "missing in action." One witness will claim to have seen at least one of the missing being carried off by small robed figures, but all video of the event, from phones and otherwise, will somehow be corrupted, and nothing will be able to be corroborated. The lone witness will also be run down outside the convention center by a bunch of darkly clad bikers, and the inquiry will go nowhere.

 

After this event, the community outcry will result in The Lion being summarily, and irrevocably, slain in a shortly released novel by Gav Thorpe, where it will be revealed that the The Lion was actually a member of Hydra the whole time (if you have played Dark Angels for more than a decade, you kinda saw this coming, right?) The model will immediately be removed from sale, and the The Lion's unit entry will disappear from a quickly released new codex.

 

PETA will issue a scathing press release lambasting GW for its treatment of The Lion.

[rendingon1+]

This. Is. Brilliant.

[Berzul]

... yeah, that sounds about right.

[Skorp]

I hope you write for black library one day shabbadoo. Thanks for sharing that masterpiece.

[Solrac]

The Lion will never turn Traitor.

 

If they decide to create a storyline for him not following Guilliman he will most likely make his own Imperium but with Black jack and Hookers and take all the Unforgiven with him. He was part of the founding of the Imperium Secundus afterall.

[FlamingDeth]

In fact, forget the blackjack!

 

...

 

Anyways, the Lion definitely won't be a traitor when he's done napping. I could easily see him fulfilling the warmaster role to RG's regent, Guilliman was always better at pushing pencils anyways. It would also give the DA legion an opportunity to have an actual distinct organization separate from the Codex Astartes. I could see him reorganizing the Primaris according to the hexagramaton and that could be neat.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I only know one thing for sure. When the Lion awakes, asses will be kicked.

I still don't know from whom but no loyalist or traitor behind will be safe from the mighty Lion's boot.

[Helked]

In the short story on "The Primarchs" book, at the end (spoiler alert) the Lion declared that he is utterly loyal to the Empire of the Emperor. Not to the Warmaster, not to what Guilliman was doing on Ultramar... and he said that we would fight against anyone that tries to destroy or corrupt the work of his father. So I think that when he awakes and see that Guilliman has been autoproclamated "Regent of the Imperium" he will be very pissed off. In fact, I think that could be a split on the Imperium: those that follow Guilliman and those that are pro humanity but against that new government. And in fact, in the book "the Unremembered Empire" the Ultramarine Primarch fear that the Lion had arrived to Ultramar to punished him for create the Imperium Secundus. In a conversation between the two primarchs, Guilliman said to Lion that he hasn't turn his back to the Emperor, and Lion's answer was (no literal, I don't had here the book) : "no, you have made something much worse. You have create your own Empire"

[UtariOnzo]

It must be remembered that there’s a good chance the Emperor wanted Guilliman to take on the role of regent, given he was described as a useful tool returned. His reforms of the Imperium are not directly comparable to Imperium Secundus, which was an entirely new Empire, and instead should be seen in the same light as his reforms after the Scouring, which were more extensive than merely putting out the Codex Astartes.

 

I think the Lion would want to speak to ol’ Papa first before doing anything against his brother (presumably then finding out Emp’s intentions to have Rowboat be the admin guy) and chances are it’s more likely he’d then become the Warmaster to Guilliman’s Regent as has already been suggested.

[Phoebus]

To respond to the original discussion topic... I doubt it’s going to be the Lion and the Dark Angels who turn, because the latest Codex sets up the Fallen coming back in legion strength, led by a Daemon Prince and possibly even Luther. So if the Lion came back only for him and the Unforgiven to betray to the Imperium, it would be overkill.

 

To answer the question of what the Lion would do, I think you could expect him to do two things. One would almost certainly involve seeking out Marbas and Luther. Unless the Lion has been conscious at any point during his rest, the destruction of Caliban and being struck down by his former comrade would be foremost in his mind. There’s obviously a lot of unknowns involved in this. Luther has both been insane and expressing remorse for some time, and so may be an unwilling companion to Marbas. Likewise, we don’t know what the Lion knows regarding Luther’s contrition, or how he feels about him. Concurrently, I would expect the Lion to claim the Imperium Nihilus for himself — as I doubt he would recognize Dante’s authority over his person.

[shandwen]

I find it odd how many people think the Lion hates roboute. From the books it rather appears that the Lion accepts his punishment and his place among his brothers (well, not until he is punished, before being punished he was still attempting to become the next warmaster). The Lion will be the most loyal of sons in every way but methods...

Infact, what we have seen/heard of each primarch has shown that they all still follow their tendencies from before, just that some of their sons have shifted from their primarchs principles. We have stories of the Lion in the Rock, from Corax in the eye, Lorgar, Morty, Roboute, and Magnus. With the dead added in there isn't much room for complete changes in allegiance. I could somewhat easily see a shift of some primarchs to other related factions, perhaps Dorn to the Templars rather than Fists, or Corax taking over the Carcaradons rather than the Ravenguard, but those olde rumors of faction changes just haven't played out yet.

[Fierce Bear]

So I have been thinking, Vigilus will be lost to the Imperium... And that means for me, that Abbadon will effectively split the Imperium in two...

 

Now this year certainly feels like the 'year of Chaos' and the SOB need more chaos to justify all the Codex and new modl sos think we could see both Angron and Fulgrim back... yep... both!!!

 

That's a pretty bad state of affairs right? So then at least one loyalist Primarch needs to help Papa Smurf or its end times for humanity I think!

 

The set up for the Lion to return is there and Vigilus let a teaser for the Dark Angels in the first book.

 

Depending on which side of the rift papa and the Lion are... The Lion will do what he does best anyway... And let's not forget he purged the traitors homeworlds (planet collapsing cyclonic torp style)... Morty recreated Barbarous in the Eye of Terror...

 

If the Lion comes back next there is opportunity for some epic grudge matches!

 

Talking of Grudges perhaps it's the Wolf too...

 

I don't see any Primarch changing sides now... Magnus but seeing as the Grey boys have part of him locked up....

 

Papa Smurf lose it with the Ecclesiarchy... Yes I could see that... With a split Imperium... Bad times right?

 

(Love a bit of speculation on a Friday!)

[Phoebus]

Other things I can imagine the Lion doing:

 

1. It’s been alluded to several times that there are several parts of the Rock that are, for all intents and purposes, neither under the control of the Dark Angels or even explored. As someone with living memory of Caliban and what Aldurukh once was, I imagine the Lion would prioritize “expeditions” to bring the whole of the Tower of Angels and its troves of archaeotech under his Chapter’s control.

 

2. Did I say Chapter? Because the Codex Astartes and its division of the Legiones Astartes is nothing the Lion signed off on. It reflects the requirements of the Imperium circa M31, in the aftermath of the Heresy and the Scouring. I imagine the Lion would effectively reconstitute the Unforgiven into legion structure if only by another name. In raising the Terran and Indomitus Crusades, Guilliman was able to take command of forces that went against the edicts that kept the Imperial Navy and Astra Militarum apart, and kept the legions. The Lion could likewise raise the, e.g., Nihilus Crusade for an indefinite period. By such means, the Unforgiven could openly coordinate in Order-size forces of many thousands of Space Marines, as they did ten thousand years ago — making them more effective against the larger-scale forces that plague Mankind.

[Chaplain Raeven]

We have two Primarchs and a pseudo Primarch on the way for Chaos, while loyalists have 1. I don't think we'll have to wait long for our Lion anymore. And I expect Russ wouldn't be far behind, since he disappeared to look for the Lion. Storywise I don't expect anything too extreme or impressive. I didn't enjoy the fluff around Guilliman's resurrection at all, some of the frater around here had way better sugestions of how it should have gone.

[FlamingDeth]

Here's the other question...the Lion wakes up and is like, HEY Y'ALL I'M THE LION, who would believe him given how paranoid the Unforgiven are these days? I'm pretty sure Asmodai would try to take the blades of reason to him, might think he's a fallen or particularly clever daemon prince.

[Phoebus]

The Watchers in the Dark would go a long way toward soothing those concerns.

[Fierce Bear]

Here's the other question...the Lion wakes up and is like, HEY Y'ALL I'M THE LION, who would believe him given how paranoid the Unforgiven are these days? I'm pretty sure Asmodai would try to take the blades of reason to him, might think he's a fallen or particularly clever daemon prince.

Love the concept of Asmodai trying to take the blades of reason to a Primarch Lion whilst Azrael, Sapphon and Belial suck air through there teeth and say....ohhhhh

[Gederas]

Here's the other question...the Lion wakes up and is like, HEY Y'ALL I'M THE LION, who would believe him given how paranoid the Unforgiven are these days? I'm pretty sure Asmodai would try to take the blades of reason to him, might think he's a fallen or particularly clever daemon prince.

Love the concept of Asmodai trying to take the blades of reason to a Primarch Lion whilst Azrael, Sapphon and Belial suck air through there teeth and say....ohhhhh

I mean. He wouldn't be the first Marine the Lion backhands and takes the head off of :lol:

[Kinstryfe]

I think one of the most overlooked little tidbits of lore about the Lion is from The First Heretic. Ten Primarchs were claimed by Chaos when they were scattered throughout the galaxy, and all signs point to it being the nine who fell plus the Lion. His homeworld was, after all, deeply tainted by Chaos. For all the jokes about the Dark Angels being traitors and whatnot (and believe me, I certainly give my share of ribbing to our local DA player), the truth is the narrative shouldn't be that the Dark Angels failed when half their number turned to Chaos. The reality is that *despite being marked to turn by the primordial truth*, fully half of the legion and El'Johnson stayed completely loyal. The only mistake they made was to then cover it up for ten millennia. But, truthfully, I think it speaks to their loyalty that they defied fate and didn't completely turn. On the same note I can't see the Lion turning to Chaos now. He was effectively born into Chaos, fought monstrosities, and even consorted with Daemons and still didn't fall. He's not going anywhere if they stay true to what's already been written.

 

The other thing I often see overlooked is that while The Emperor (debatably and with increasing stress) viewed the Primarchs as ends to a means, the Primarchs viewed themselves as brothers. Just like any family they all had a complex range of emotions and impressions of each other, but very few times is it ever said that one Primarch hated another before the heresy. Dislikes, rivalries, poor opinions, yes, but none seemed to truly despise another enough to refuse to work with or be around another. Except maybe the Nighthaunter, but he hated everyone including himself, so there's more stuff going on there than we have time to unpack right now. If all the remaining loyalist Primarchs returned I can see a lot of arguments. Blame over the outcome of the heresy against those who weren't on Terra, anger over the breaking of the Legions, but I truly can't see a scenario where any of them (outside of authors just deciding so just because) would turn against the Imperium. I can see the Lion taking a good swing at Guilliman for slowing down their path to Terra. I can see the Lion being as annoyed as Guilliman is at the current state of the Imperium. I just can't see the Lion deciding that the Imperium isn't worth fighting for and setting off on his own. If he's number two back I fully expect he'll ultimately be happy to have such an important role in the Imperium by default, and I expect that as the Primarch of the First Legion he'd have plenty of opportunity to show off and help shape the Imperium going forward. But open rebellion against one of his loyal brothers against The Emperor's will? I just don't think it'd happen without a ton of handwavium at play.