Bolt Pistols: When was the modern 40k variant available?

[Rabidbunneh]

So I've been considering starting up a heresy blood angel army, the list is already 80 assault marines and 20 jump pack destroyers deep, so I've leaned into that rite of war massively, but I was pricing it up from FW and oh boy....

 

I'm probably going to end up mixing sanguiniary guard, regular mk4 bits and a load of the BA head upgrade sets together and see what works, probably 5 or 10 marines at a time. The issue I've got is bolt pistols.

 

The Mk4 and MK3 sets both have their distinct style of bolt pistols, which I can source but it'll take a while, I was wondering if it's heresy appropriate to mix in a few 40k ones, but only if they are fluff appropriate.

[Grotsmasha]

The current pattern weaponry were in use for the tail end of the Heresy sparingly, and prominently at The Siege of Terra and onwards.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Blindhamster]

If you play BA, WS or IF, a siege of terra theme army could use a lot of 40k models pretty legitimately. Mk7 armour was a thing at the siege as were godwyn patter bolt guns and bolt pistols.

[Rabidbunneh]

Thanks for the answers, it looks like I've got a bit of leeway when it comes to what ones I use then.

[rendingon1+]

If you play BA, WS or IF, a siege of terra theme army could use a lot of 40k models pretty legitimately. Mk7 armour was a thing at the siege as were godwyn patter bolt guns and bolt pistols.

Interesting, would you provide the source of these info? I'm genuinely interested.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Honestly, Bolt Pistols will get skimmed right over in most cases. If you mix squads with mkIII and godwyn Pistols, then it'll be apparent, but if you go all godwyn there shouldn't be a problem.

[Gederas]

Honestly, Bolt Pistols will get skimmed right over in most cases. If you mix squads with mkIII and godwyn Pistols, then it'll be apparent, but if you go all godwyn there shouldn't be a problem.

Plus, isn't there a whole thing with the Heresy Era having a metric ton of different weapon patterns?

[Grotsmasha]

 

If you play BA, WS or IF, a siege of terra theme army could use a lot of 40k models pretty legitimately. Mk7 armour was a thing at the siege as were godwyn patter bolt guns and bolt pistols.

Interesting, would you provide the source of these info? I'm genuinely interested.

 

 

I don't know the original source, but Dorn "liberated" the mkVII stuff from Mars and dispersed it amongst the Legions defending Terra during the Siege.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Honestly, Bolt Pistols will get skimmed right over in most cases. If you mix squads with mkIII and godwyn Pistols, then it'll be apparent, but if you go all godwyn there shouldn't be a problem.

Plus, isn't there a whole thing with the Heresy Era having a metric ton of different weapon patterns?

Pretty much, yeah.

For me it is a aesthetics thing when it comes to pistols.

[Kizzdougs]

 

 

If you play BA, WS or IF, a siege of terra theme army could use a lot of 40k models pretty legitimately. Mk7 armour was a thing at the siege as were godwyn patter bolt guns and bolt pistols.

Interesting, would you provide the source of these info? I'm genuinely interested.

 

 

I don't know the original source, but Dorn "liberated" the mkVII stuff from Mars and dispersed it amongst the Legions defending Terra during the Siege.

 

They "liberated" MkVII armour, but were Godwyn pattern weapons ever mentioned? I've never heard them mentioned in the Heresy, but of course I could have easily missed a reference.

[bluntblade]

I figure they'd have appeared in the centuries or millennia since. Black Legion has Eye-dwelling CSM not recognise tech carried by the Black Templars.

[rendingon1+]

 

 

If you play BA, WS or IF, a siege of terra theme army could use a lot of 40k models pretty legitimately. Mk7 armour was a thing at the siege as were godwyn patter bolt guns and bolt pistols.

Interesting, would you provide the source of these info? I'm genuinely interested.

 

 

I don't know the original source, but Dorn "liberated" the mkVII stuff from Mars and dispersed it amongst the Legions defending Terra during the Siege.

 

Armour IF salvaged from Mars was mk IV though.

Mechanicum:

 

‘The work proceeds,’ said Kane. ‘Already we have shipped over twelve thousand suits of Mark IV armour and twice as many weapons.’

[Slips]

Complete intact suits that were recovered were Mk VI with the standard 1k suits being sent off to the Raven Guard.

 

However, they also recovered the plans/STC for making Mk VII as well and brought those over to Terra to begin production in addition to whatever else they were able to recover.

[Nuttyer1st]

Armour IF salvaged from Mars was mk IV though.

 

Mechanicum:

 

‘The work proceeds,’ said Kane. ‘Already we have shipped over twelve thousand suits of Mark IV armour and twice as many weapons.’

 

 

I believe newer publishings of Mechanicum changed that line to say Mark VI, but I'm not 100% certain as I don't have any of the newer printings of it

[Fenbain]

I thought it states the MKVII project was moved to Terra shortly before the Martian civil war broke out properly, not that the STC/plans had already been discovered and were brought to Terra? I think that's an important distinction if so.

 

As for the salvaged armour, according to the publications I have it was primarily MKIV and a relatively small amount of MKVI, the MKVI then being sent to the recovering Raven Guard as per Deliverance Lost.

[Brother Styphus]

The mkvii plans were later in the timeline than Mechanucum. They were recovered from Sigismund's mission, which happened about 6 years later.

[StruManChu]

I must admit that I'm not seeing the connection between MkIV/MkVI/MkVII armour being taken off of Mars by the Fists and the introduction of the Godwyn pattern bolter or bolt pistol. Is it possible we're thinking that because Godwyn pattern is associated most closely with MkVII armour that they must have been developed together? I'd argue that's probably not the case.

 

First off, unless I'm very much mistaken, the fuss about getting stuff off Mars is very much focussed on the recovery of Power Armour moreso than anything else due to the complexity of its manufacture. Where new suits of Power Armour would have been taxing for the Loyalists to have built, Bolters can and would have been constructed in vast quantities in a Manufactorum somewhere on Terra in various patterns as required. As far as I know, there's never been any mention of a new and better pattern of Bolt weapons being found next to the new pattern of Power Armour.

 

Again, I may well have missed it, but I'm not aware of anything in the books that says the Godwyn is the 'modern' bolt weapon pattern in the same way that MkVII is 'modern' power armour, with all the 'that's not proper heresy' that comes with that. They'd be rare, certainly, because the other patterns are far more widely used, but I think they'd be there in the same way that Mars pattern Rhinos, Predators and Land Raiders all exist in 30k. 

[corvus.calvariam]

They "liberated" MkVII armour, but were Godwyn pattern weapons ever mentioned? I've never heard them mentioned in the Heresy, but of course I could have easily missed a reference.

It's not exactly Godwyn, but in massacre there is an example of a Salamander with an "Ultima" pattern combi-flamer which looks like its meant to represent the combi-flamer found in the character conversion kit. If I remember right, the pattern has also shown up before since at least the badab books. Since it looks almost identical to Godywn, I've taken it to mean that plastic bolters are fair game, though I'd remove all of the skulls and wings etc from them first.

 

The image in question.

 

[Grotsmasha]

I must admit that I'm not seeing the connection between MkIV/MkVI/MkVII armour being taken off of Mars by the Fists and the introduction of the Godwyn pattern bolter or bolt pistol. Is it possible we're thinking that because Godwyn pattern is associated most closely with MkVII armour that they must have been developed together? I'd argue that's probably not the case.

First off, unless I'm very much mistaken, the fuss about getting stuff off Mars is very much focussed on the recovery of Power Armour moreso than anything else due to the complexity of its manufacture. Where new suits of Power Armour would have been taxing for the Loyalists to have built, Bolters can and would have been constructed in vast quantities in a Manufactorum somewhere on Terra in various patterns as required. As far as I know, there's never been any mention of a new and better pattern of Bolt weapons being found next to the new pattern of Power Armour.

Again, I may well have missed it, but I'm not aware of anything in the books that says the Godwyn is the 'modern' bolt weapon pattern in the same way that MkVII is 'modern' power armour, with all the 'that's not proper heresy' that comes with that. They'd be rare, certainly, because the other patterns are far more widely used, but I think they'd be there in the same way that Mars pattern Rhinos, Predators and Land Raiders all exist in 30k.

You are correct, I was associating Godwyn = mkVII.

I was wrong.

It seems the Godwyn (Ultima?, cheers reaho :tu:) was in use in the heresy WAY before the Siege, as depicted in the Visions of Heresy,

[Gederas]

I KNEW those bolters looked familiar when I was looking at my copy of Visions of Heresy. I never realized those are "modern" Godwyn-pattern. Though, that last one of the Blood Angel taking cover looks to be an Umbra-pattern.

 

 

They "liberated" MkVII armour, but were Godwyn pattern weapons ever mentioned? I've never heard them mentioned in the Heresy, but of course I could have easily missed a reference.

It's not exactly Godwyn, but in massacre there is an example of a Salamander with an "Ultima" pattern combi-flamer which looks like its meant to represent the combi-flamer found in the character conversion kit. If I remember right, the pattern has also shown up before since at least the badab books. Since it looks almost identical to Godywn, I've taken it to mean that plastic bolters are fair game, though I'd remove all of the skulls and wings etc from them first.

The image in question.

 

From my search on the 40k Wiki and Lexicanum, it seems the "Ultima" is a variant of.... the Godwyn pattern. Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two mentions as such:

"The Minotaurs are known to have used Godwyn Ultima bolt weapons during the Badab War - it is unclear if these are Boltguns or Bolt pistols. The Exorcists used Godwyn-Ultima bolters during this war. The Salamanders are known to have used Nocturne-Ultima modified boltguns during the Badab War."

 

And images of said Godwyn-Ultima, Nocurne-Ultima and Ultima pattern:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/94/Godwyn_Ultima_bolter_1_-_Exorcists.jpg

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/0/0e/Nocturne-Ultima_Modified_Boltgun.jpg

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/7/78/Ultima_or_Godwyn_Ultima_Bolter_1.jpg

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/86/Ultima_or_Godwyn_Ultima_Bolter_2.jpg

 

So yeah, it looks like the "Ultima-pattern" is a variant of the Godwyn-pattern

[Grotsmasha]

I KNEW those bolters looked familiar when I was looking at my copy of Visions of Heresy. I never realized those are "modern" Godwyn-pattern. Though, that last one of the Blood Angel taking cover looks to be an Umbra-pattern.

 

I'm going off of the grip on the front, as the Godwyn is the only pattern depicted with one :tu:

[Rabidbunneh]

Wow this has kept on going, thanks everyone. I've managed to bits order about 30 or so Forgeworld bolt pistols to mix in with the rest of the army.

 

I wasn't sure how canon the artbooks were now, I've still got my old copy but so much has changed since it was released. It's good inspiration fodder though.

[Ryltar Thamior]

Alright, came a bit late to the party, and it appears the main points have already been covered; but on the offchance there's something useful in here for you - here's something I prepared earlier ...

"Anyway. I did a bit more thinking about the Blood Angels range and kits you could viably use for 'historical accuracy'. First one that sprang to mind was the Sanguinary Guard. We already know that the jumppacks they're equipped with are quite close to a pattern that was in use around the time of the Heresy - the Mk.IV ones, to be precise. Unsure about the angel-wings, although there's some precedence for something like this with the Raven Guard Dark Fury squad's 'wings' either side of the jump-engine [edit: art for Azkaellon has him wiht wings on his jump-pack, so iguess they're in]. As applies the helmets ... I'm not sure if there's a direct precedent for anything like the Death Masks yet in 30k; but given a number of other Legions make a point of using broooadly analogous helmet designs presumably for psychological purposes [c.f the skull-mask helment from the Iron Warriors upgrades, as well as the skull from the Night Lords upgrades], I can certainly see it being viable for a specialist unit. The bigger left-side shoulder pads would also be potential, as they've got the right bulk and height for Mk.III, I reckon. And the torsos, as others have said, bear a certain resemblance to the broad outlines of Mk.IV chest-armour. Although the legs are probably non-incorperable unless you're prepared to put seriosu effort into redoing the knees to make htem look more like Mk.IV or something. 

Weapon-wise, we know that Inferno Pistols were much more common during the Heresy; although with regard to hte Angelus pattern bolters, whlst they DO look a little more 30k-appropriate than the standard Godwyn patterns [being squatter and more boxy, and closer to square in cross-section than high rectangle], there's no easy precedent that i'm aware of for the whole 'wrist-mounted hands free' mounting [outside of special characters like Perturabo]. Closest I could find was the Word Bearers Ashen Circle although despite some crossover in armament and also having a non-standard mounting , they use actual pistol grips and appear to simply reverse the position of the weapon from the top of the grip to the bottom, rather than properly 'wrist-mounting' it. [i'm still not sure how the Angels are supposed to fire their weapons, anyway - is it Black Carapace direct itnerfacing as a trigger mechanism, or do they twitch their wrists a bit or something]

The other kit with some potential is the Death Company box. Which has two sets of Mk.VI legs, one Mk.IV head, and one 'knightly' head of a pattern i'm not entirely sure of [althoug hi've previously believed that those general sorts of helms have tended to be Mk.IV - although it's also possible that it's Mk.III due to the grill, or a composite pattern created via field-repairs].

Then again, it's probably worth noting that if you've got the cash to procure either or both of these boxes [which work out as approximately 2/3rds the cost of one of the plastic HH-era tactical squads for 5 miniatures, of which only a relatively small proportion of which will likely be directly useful] - then it's possible you'd be better served by saving your pennies for a bit until you can buy the era-appropriate plastics. Having said that, it'd be pretty cool to see you come up with 30k-era Sanguinary Guard via kitbashing and conversion  

Another thought whicih I had which is a bit more .. out on a limb .. is that if we look at the new plastic Sanguinary Priest kit, we see he's wearing robes that cover most of the armour-mk distinguishing features [leg greaves, mostly]. Dependent upon how comfortable you are with 'fluff innovation' in this direction, you'd perhaps be able to use the robed legs fro mthe Dark Angels Veterans kit in a similar way and to similar effect. 

So there's another few thoughts. 
 

Now, I also did some thinking about bolters etc. - because those are obviously going to be something whih every Marine player has in abundance, and yet which people often jump on when it comes to "historical accuracy" as well.

Initially, i thought that the standard Godwyn pattern bolter was a post-Heresy invention. However, some googling and forum-stalking appears to indicate that this is not necessarily the case. We have reasonable evidence that the 'Ultima' pattern of bolter WAS in use around hte time of the Heresy - both in the form of a picture from Betrayal of a Death Guard marine using one, and also a picture of a Salamanders combi-flamer which is explicitly identified as being 'Ultima' pattern. How does this help you? Well, taking a look at the pictures available on Lexicanum & 40kWiki of the Ultima pattern, I'd say it's pretty difficult to tell the difference between Ultima pattern and Godwyn pattern [and, indeed,there's actually a modern Godwyn-Ultima pattern which is similarly similar looking] - the main distinguishmetn appears to be the lack of a winged skull on the Ultimas. 

So whilst I don't necessarily recommend it, lest it look anachronistic or lazy, it's certainly historically possible to have modern-looking bolters [with some minor alterations, as suggested, concerning iconography] from your spare Tactical Squads or wahtever on your 30k force. "

[Rabidbunneh]

Interesting points, I'm not going to use the wings, heads, wrist mounted bolt pistols or shoulder pads on the models, the arms can be trimmed down to look like mk4 armour.

 

The rumours from the open day said that Blood Angel destroyers wear death masks to hide their identity, so I've got a load of them spare to convert a unit up when the book drops.

[Nova_Dew]

Interesting points, I'm not going to use the wings, heads, wrist mounted bolt pistols or shoulder pads on the models, the arms can be trimmed down to look like mk4 armour.

 

The rumours from the open day said that Blood Angel destroyers wear death masks to hide their identity, so I've got a load of them spare to convert a unit up when the book drops.

 

They do indeed wear death masks, the short story The Passing of Angels, points it out and tells you where they come from, they are silver not gold though.