Alternative Thousand Sons Build

[CrystalSeer]

I ran an all dusty list this past Saturday, and thought it would be worth posting on here since it varies quite a bit from what I normally see. I'll start by noting that I chose to avoid Tzaangors for narrative / thematic reasons, and realize that this is not what most people would consider a competitive list. Still, the list performed quite well for me and had some strong synergies:

 

 

Battalion Detachment (Thousand Sons)

 

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch:     Black Staff Exalted

Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch:     Dark Matter Crystal, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

Scarab Occult Terminators (10):  Force Stave, Inferno Combi-bolters, Power Swords, Soulreaper Cannons, Hellfyre Missile Racks

Rubric Marines (20):                    Inferno Bolters, Soulreaper Cannons

Rubric Marines (20):                    Inferno Bolters, Soulreaper Cannons

Chaos Cultists (10):                     Autoguns and Heavy Stubber

Hellbrute:                                     Twin Lascannon, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, Combi-Bolter

Hellbrute:                                     Twin Lascannon, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, Combi-Bolter 

Chaos Predator:                           Lascannons, Combi-Bolter

 

 

 

Weakness:

- Only 8 CP

- Largely weak in / to assault

- Vulnerable to Morale, requires CP to overcome

 

Strengths:

- Overcomes lack of CP with efficient CP usage. Large squad size maximizes impact of VotLW.

- With DMC, Webway, and Teleport, all 3 main rubric units are capable of forward asymmetric deployment 

- Two large rubric squads efficiently utilize the two defensive psychic powers

- 8 Lascannon shots (10 if Fire Frenzy is used) provide solid anti-tank

- No easy targets; all units except cultists have either high Toughness, or good (2+) armor saves. This makes anti-infantry fire largely ineffective.

[WarriorFish]

Looks quite solid, how have your games gone so far and what were your opponents like? How many points is the list, I'm guessing 1750/2000pts? Did you always get to use your redeployment plans for mobility, or did you need to use some for get away from combat? The more information you can provide the better, plus pictures are always a bonus ;)

[The Yncarne]

That looks similar to what I was running the past few months I played the Sons. I’m glad you’re doing fairly well with it. Do you have much problem with armor? Any issues with large blocks of infantry like orks?

[CrystalSeer]

Looks quite solid, how have your games gone so far and what were your opponents like? How many points is the list, I'm guessing 1750/2000pts? Did you always get to use your redeployment plans for mobility, or did you need to use some for get away from combat? The more information you can provide the better, plus pictures are always a bonus

 

So far I've played against combined Harlequins / Orks, Space Wolves, and Necrons. The list is 2k (1998). I've used the mobility almost exclusively to deploy in advantageous positions to set up defense in depth. The concept is that my three block have range and position to support each other within the mid-field, usually while in terrain. This gives me 'all is dust' and cover, which makes them quite hard to shift.  If they do get assaulted, I'll just withdraw the assaulted unit, and the other two units will take the offending unit down. Smite / Mortal Wound Spells can be used to focus down harder targets as well. In the game against the wolves, he had two jump-pack characters charge a block of 20 rubrics; they killed 5. The rubrics then withdrew, and both characters were killed in the psychic phase. Later in the same game, his primaris dreadnought and razorback charged my SOT. The terminators withdrew, and both targets were taken down through a combination of psychic and lascannons.

 

When your units are placed with 24" of each other, anything that charges them will be in range of 88 inferno shots from supporting units and every smite in your army.

 

That looks similar to what I was running the past few months I played the Sons. I’m glad you’re doing fairly well with it. Do you have much problem with armor? Any issues with large blocks of infantry like orks?

 

10 Lascannon shots mean my only problem with armor is when the dice decide to stop working. This tends to be low rolls for damage more than anything else. However, Gaze of Fate and Command Re-roll help out with this. Massed infantry is not a problem, since each block of infantry puts out 44 shots and can cast Prescience organically. With the beta rules this has only gotten stronger.

[sneakybamsen]

20 rubrics with two soulreapers will put out 42 shots between 12"-24" and 43 shots inside 12", as the aspiring sorcerer only has a pistol. Marginal difference, but it is there :)

 

44 shots from the terminators plus missiles sounds right though :)

 

It's cool that you run them like so, always nice to see the Sons being used in fluffier ways than we see in tournaments, where rubrics and scarab occult really aren't seen much.

[CrystalSeer]

20 rubrics with two soulreapers will put out 42 shots between 12"-24" and 43 shots inside 12", as the aspiring sorcerer only has a pistol. Marginal difference, but it is there

 

44 shots from the terminators plus missiles sounds right though

 

It's cool that you run them like so, always nice to see the Sons being used in fluffier ways than we see in tournaments, where rubrics and scarab occult really aren't seen much.

 

Question just for curiosity: what is run in tournaments that would cause problems? I don't go to them anymore as I'm currently stationed overseas, but its interesting to theory-craft. 

[sneakybamsen]

All is dust is a fickle rule in the sense that it is easily ignored with weapons that have better damage profile than d1 (knights with avenger gatling cannons are a prime example of murderers of rubrics). Rubrics and Scarab Occult are slow units, that while having an easier time staying at 2+ than other marines or terminators (against d1 weapons), are expensive compared to how easily they can be killed (or at least deemed expensive compared to other options). They are costly to park on an objective compared to cultists, guardsmen and small daemons. They don't do all that much more damage and are not that much more durable. It's the general problem with marines and terminators.

 

Competitively people play TS as supreme command with ahriman, daemon princes and perhaps a terminator sorcerer or two. Some also include tzaangors (different detachment structure), but far from all.

 

When my collection will be complete, I will have 40-50 rubrics and 10 scarab occult myself, as I am not planning on being too competitive with that army. I love the legion and the lore, so I want to honour that aspect.

[CrystalSeer]

All is dust is a fickle rule in the sense that it is easily ignored with weapons that have better damage profile than d1 (knights with avenger gatling cannons are a prime example of murderers of rubrics). Rubrics and Scarab Occult are slow units, that while having an easier time staying at 2+ than other marines or terminators (against d1 weapons), are expensive compared to how easily they can be killed (or at least deemed expensive compared to other options). They are costly to park on an objective compared to cultists, guardsmen and small daemons. They don't do all that much more damage and are not that much more durable. It's the general problem with marines and terminators.

 

Competitively people play TS as supreme command with ahriman, daemon princes and perhaps a terminator sorcerer or two. Some also include tzaangors (different detachment structure), but far from all.

 

When my collection will be complete, I will have 40-50 rubrics and 10 scarab occult myself, as I am not planning on being too competitive with that army. I love the legion and the lore, so I want to honour that aspect.

 

I do get that All is Dust can be fickle, but with 'prepared positions', ruins, and multiple ways to be in reserve, its fairly easy to pick where and when you engage with the enemy. Optimally, this allows you to minimize damage by killing the enemy before they can shoot at you.

 

I strongly disagree with the assessment that rubrics put out less damage than regular CSM/MEQ, since the AP -2 reduces the effectiveness of any armor in the game by 30%. Add to this veterans of the long war and soulreaper cannons and you can shred most opponents. Hell, my soulreaper cannons frequently kill units on their own. That's before you even look at psykers being able to add +1 to hit at no additional cost.

 

I would also say that webway, teleport, and DMC go a long way to combat them being slow. You can be in their max-effective firing positions by t2 almost guaranteed. After that, yes they have slow movement but you don't really need to move. Quick reactions can be done by disc sorcerers.

 

I still want to face a knight. It sounds fun to use Death Hex on one and just shred it.

[The Yncarne]

Speaking from experience, it takes more than a Death Hex to bring down a knight with this army.   However, it does have the means to do so faster than I thought.

[CrystalSeer]

My intention is Death Hex plus around 8-10 lascannon shots. Maybe some smites or cannons if I'm close enough.

[WarriorFish]

If you get Death Hex off against a high value target you really need to be able to leverage it as much as possible I think - i.e. either kill outright or seriously cripple for the big stuff. This is the ideal outcome of course, but mostly because once you pull this trick it's a great way to make your opponent do everything he can to stop it happening again I've only managed to do that once so far against a GM in NDK, but I'm still getting the hang off flinging lots of psychic powers around and haven't had much opportunity to use it a great deal yet.

[sneakybamsen]

I didn't say anywhere CSM/GEQ put out more damage than SOTs/rubrics. I said that our options don't put out that much more than those units, not when taking cost into account and looking at things from a competitive perspective.

 

I like rubrics and SOTs, but they are unfortunately often overshadowed in competitive play, which is what GW takes into consideration, when balancing the game.

[Tyriks]

I've had luck with using Veterans on big squads of SOT or Rubrics. I'm not playing tournaments, but wounding most vehicles on 4s with that many AP - 2 shots can do a lot of damage. It's not ideal, obviously, but it can be enough.

[CrystalSeer]

I didn't say anywhere CSM/GEQ put out more damage than SOTs/rubrics. I said that our options don't put out that much more than those units, not when taking cost into account and looking at things from a competitive perspective.

 

I like rubrics and SOTs, but they are unfortunately often overshadowed in competitive play, which is what GW takes into consideration, when balancing the game.

I get what you're saying, but what are the criteria for units to be 'competitive'? I don't mean this as an attack, but I see the terms competitive and non-competitive thrown around a lot. Space Marines don't think they're competitive, chaos don't, guard don't, etc...

 

Really the only things I ever see universally called competitive are knights, custodes, and eldar.

 

Given that very little is actually considered competitive, and even the things that are can be relatively easily countered, what does the distinction mean?

[sneakybamsen]

You're right in a sense. The difference between competitive and non-competitive choices is smaller than it has ever been, and so the distinction becomes less clear. This is to great extent due to GW's work with updates and FAQs to the game. The meta changes quickly (several times a year, it seems), and while it might be too much for some people to keep up with, others relish the change and balance brought by this behaviour.

 

What defines what is competitive and what is not? Well, as a rule of thumb, competitive choices are the best in the detachment slots for a given codex, bar that some books have several options but none of them do well on the table. One way to look at what is competitive is to have a glance at what is being fielded in competitive play (mainly looking at the top tables). That does come with a problem though, as most of the top table lists have more or less the same units. Castellan with loyal 32 springs to mind, for instance.

People saying guard aren't competitive should have their eyes torn out though. Astra Militarum is the only old codex that is represented consistently in the top halves of tournaments en masse. I've lost several games to pure AM lists with pure knights for instance. I really don't see why some people claim the guard needs help. It is also the only codex where brigades are seen regularly, because they have such cheap options, that with the right regiments and orders, really do work.

Marines, both loyal and heretic, could use some more help than we have already received. To make power armour and terminator armour work better, so those units too will see tabletime at high level competitive play (the tournament scene is where GW collects their data on what needs to be made better and what needs to be made less good, afterall).

 

I hope that made a bit of sense.

 

Regards

Sneaky

[CrystalSeer]

You're right in a sense. The difference between competitive and non-competitive choices is smaller than it has ever been, and so the distinction becomes less clear. This is to great extent due to GW's work with updates and FAQs to the game. The meta changes quickly (several times a year, it seems), and while it might be too much for some people to keep up with, others relish the change and balance brought by this behaviour.

 

What defines what is competitive and what is not? Well, as a rule of thumb, competitive choices are the best in the detachment slots for a given codex, bar that some books have several options but none of them do well on the table. One way to look at what is competitive is to have a glance at what is being fielded in competitive play (mainly looking at the top tables). That does come with a problem though, as most of the top table lists have more or less the same units. Castellan with loyal 32 springs to mind, for instance.

People saying guard aren't competitive should have their eyes torn out though. Astra Militarum is the only old codex that is represented consistently in the top halves of tournaments en masse. I've lost several games to pure AM lists with pure knights for instance. I really don't see why some people claim the guard needs help. It is also the only codex where brigades are seen regularly, because they have such cheap options, that with the right regiments and orders, really do work.

Marines, both loyal and heretic, could use some more help than we have already received. To make power armour and terminator armour work better, so those units too will see tabletime at high level competitive play (the tournament scene is where GW collects their data on what needs to be made better and what needs to be made less good, afterall).

 

I hope that made a bit of sense.

 

Regards

Sneaky

 

 

I largely agree, but with a few differences:

 

- Defining competitiveness by what is represented on top tables is fundamentally flawed, in that it does not indicate the whole sum of good/powerful options, but simply the ones used by those players at that time.  I do not take this to mean that those players are not playing good options and combos, but simply that it not being on that table does not inherently mean it is not a good option. I frequently see articles and discussions about how everyone is astounded to see something works at a tournament, and then rushes to replicate it. Does this mean that the option was not good before, and became good when a tournament player used it? Or was it good the entire time and people just didn't see or acknowledge it until it was spelled out in front of them?

 

- "as a rule of thumb, competitive choices are the best in the detachment slots for a given codex" - I see what you're going for, but best in what?  Thousand Sons have three troop choices, and each serve very different rolls.  Rubrics put out damage and have better survival in mid range firefights. Goat-chickens excel at assaults, whereas cultists are good at being cheap and taking up space. Usually, people say that tzaangors are the best for the points, as you can put out the most attacks for the cheapest cost; however, to get them in to position, there are added (opportunity) costs.

     - First, you need to DMC them, or accept that they need to make a 9" charge

     - Requires you dedicatethe character / relic to transport ad warptime them

     - Requires the spell to actually go off

     - May require additional CP tomake them fight again, or add 2 to warptime cast

 

Even with all these things added, you still can only effectively do this with one unit. In addition, they will by definition be far enough away from the rest of your deployment that they can not be well supported. So even though on a unit / unit comparison they stack well, the rest of the army doesn't really support them.

 

-------break---------

 

I think that is my largest problem with units being dismissed immediately as 'not competitive': armies and units do not work based solely on relative unit strengths in a vacuum. Armies function based off of:

 

- Damage output (How much damage you can deal)

- Damage defense (How much damage you can resist)

- Maneuver (Ability to place units to engage the enemy where you want)

- Tempo (Ability to place units to engage the enemy when you want)

- Mass (Ability to throw tons of bodies or tanks on the field)

- Synergies (How well your units reinforce each other)

[Heliomanes]

I think we can present "just so" theories and stories that can present pretty much anything in a good or bad light. In the end, viability has to be proved by practice (even though a meta can certainly have blind spots), and few would argue that Rubric-based lists have been synonymous with high tournament scores in this edition so far. Happy if they are working out for you in your local player environments though. Context is key. Some groups are less competitively minded than others, leaving room for different options to emerge as viable if you want to compete at an even level with the kind of opposition you can expect.

Maybe it would be helpful to develop a different typology. I'm used to people using the terms "competitive", "semi-competitive" and "fluffy" when they attempt to place themselves in a gradient scale of competitive viability. I can see how rubric heavy lists can do well in a semi-competitive environment, for instance. But that kind of tripartite system leaves a lot of things open. Just how competitive do we mean by "competitive"? Are the tzaangor lists in? They try to be competitive, but usually don't exactly dominate the top 10 in the big tournaments... So are they semi-competitive? If so, can the competitively minded rubric lists fit into that kind of category? Again, the terminology is a bit lacking, which often lead us to talk past each other when discussing viability.

[Prot]

My list often has 10 Rubrics and 5 SOTs. I dare not go higher.

 

I wouldn’t play this in a local tournament personally. Last night for instance a squad of 10 Dark Angel Helblasters erased my 5 SOTs in one round of shooting, and of course they were in cover.

 

The problem becomes real estate in some of these games. You’re pushing up the line and needing to grab objectives. Eventually you are forced to push with the Rubrics and Scarabs because you’ve put a lot into them.

 

My last game I lost the 10 Rubrics in one turn of Shooting from Lootas. There’s just a lot of bad match ups for me here it seems.

[CrystalSeer]

@prot, that's interesting to me. Why are the bikes able to get to the position and shoot you, rather than you dropping down and removing them?

 

What is forcing you to push forward? Is this tournament missions, or Maelstrom? Are there other ways to score points?

[Prot]

I play a lot of  Maelstorm and objective based tournament games. The great thing about that is the old stand and shoot lists are dead in that scenario. Yes there are other ways to score points, but not to win.

 

There were no bikes against the DA, just 30" Hellbasters. I just couldn't avoid them the whole game. I tried a trick to expose myself for one turn and they all died.

 

The Orks "Da Jump" is ridiculous combined with Lootas. It's almost indefensible, and they love going after Rubrics, or Scarabs (any termies really). 

 

It's something I learned to live with. I love those core units as well. I just try to balance it out with more Cultists, and Tzaangors, and basically some Spawns (I love them with the point reduction and our strategem!)

[CrystalSeer]

What tactics are being used that make you unable to simply kill the hellblasters or lootas? Neither seem that difficult to take down.

 

My usual take would be to use turn 2 to move my 1 squad up with dmc and drop in 2 via webway / teleport. That allows a 12" to 24" engagement zone to take out priority targets per block. Lootas especially go down quick due to their armor save being pants.

 

I can see area denial being an issue with orks, but primaris have a small footprint. A good placement and some soul reaper cannons should make short work of the hellblasters, then all is dust puts you in a good place against the remaining bolter fire.

 

What am I missing?

[Sonoftherubric21]

My lists are very similar to this, though I often end up going 10/10/20 all Rubric lists with no Scarab Occult. Now with the point decrease post CA18 I tend to take even more. I play 1k Sons for Sorcerers and Dust Bunnies, not Goats. (though I do love tzaangors they are an added bonus not a focus) 

The helbrute load out is almost identical to mine though I replace the pred with either a Mauler or Defiler for that Melee kick that we often lack. (several if able) 

The other thing I do is whenever I spam rubrics I take the top-tier HQ slots, so if I am taking 40-60 Rubrics I *ALWAYS* take Ahriman and a flying Prince which helps make up for the.....less then adequate melee. I think a list like this functions well on most gaming tables barring fighting someone with 7+ "dakka-bots" from admech you'd be hardpressed to find any army that can quickly and efficiently deal with this many Rubrics. 

 

DMC as you have is an auto-include to get them back into an effective shooting phase. Having the extra rubrics even sitting at home can be great after the beta-bolter rules which really helps us disproportionately to other marine armies.  Ap-2 Bolters get far more mileage then basic boltguns. 

 

My lists basic idea is this : 9 CP total 

Ahriman on disc
Prince wings (DMC, also Warlord with +1 to cast trait) 

Sorcerer naked. (pistol/sword or staff) 

20 man rubric duel reapers

10 man rubric reaper

10 man rubric reaper

Helbrute plasma/missile

Helbrute las/missile 

Defiler reaper/scourge

Mauler tendrils

Forgefiend duel hades cannon/jaws

Hellforged contemptor duel butcher cannons. 

 

I have found that this list tends to work very well on the table, very few lists in the game can deal with this many tough units and much like your list small arms fire matters very little. 

 

The Forgefiend is an option to swap out if need be, but having it in the backfield on an objective and pelting units with 8 shots at -1 ap with str 8 is quite useful and adds to weight of fire. Mine often does quite well on the table and lives far longer then it has any right to. Its why I keep taking it! lol. Swapping the Helbrute for a Mutalith is another way of downing the points, upgrading that second sorcerer for an Exalted with aura and putting it near the duel brutes for the RR1 aura (and most spells that backline sorcerer has is long range) 

The mauler and defiler act as "big brothers" to the large rubric squad: if something moves to engage or is a hard-target such as a knight or dreadnought the defiler or mauler (or both) move to engage the target and hopefully open it wide with a good number of attacks from both with solid anti-tank weaponry on both. 

[Skerr]

I'd hate to see that naked Sorcerer, you know... mutations and all.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I'd hate to see that naked Sorcerer, you know... mutations and all.

 

Seriously, glad to hear Rubes are working even better for you!

 

I mean a decent point drop + the Beta bolter buff....they keep getting better lol. 

 

Admittedly against knight spam  (more then one knight) lists I have to take something else, Str 4 shooting en-masse DOES NOT work against multiple knights. thats usually when tzaangors come out and the arrow-goats on discs happen. 

[Ahzek451]

I've had success with spear tzaangor on discs vs knights. But I'm super tempted to fit a master of possession in another detachment to allow some maulerfiends and 2 squads of tzaangor on discs to get a 4++. Spear goats maybe a 3++.