Alternative Thousand Sons Build

[CrystalSeer]

Knights are the main reason I hold so hard to lascannons. 8 lascannons plus death hex is the best answer I can think of.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I've had success with spear tzaangor on discs vs knights. But I'm super tempted to fit a master of possession in another detachment to allow some maulerfiends and 2 squads of tzaangor on discs to get a 4++. Spear goats maybe a 3++.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. 

 

Those buffs from the MOP require "Legion" and "Daemon" keywords, Thousand Sons is not one of the legions the MOP can buff. 

[Ahzek451]

Well that sucks. Scratch off for allies.

[Prot]

SonofRubric,

 

I like your list.... could you imagine running it as Black Legion with some tweaks? I think with cursed earth it could be scary good.

[kernbanks]

It has been a long, long time since I was on B&C, but wanted to chime in on this discussion - sorry for being a necromancer.  I appreciate the list and right on if you are winning with it, however my local meta is heavy with 7 flier elder soup -or- the loyal 84 (+3 scout sentinels), deathwatch BN (mixed vet squads around SB/SS and junior smash captain), and a knight (mostly caastellan but sometimes crusader with relic gatling cannon).  Your list will struggle against both of these, not hitting the fliers while they pick you apart -or- shooting chaff while the knight eats your lunch (scouting sentinels make sure you don't get anywhere near the main line until turn 2 or 3).  Not to mention 10 Deathwatch vets -most popular load out being 7 stormshield/stormbolter, 1 bike, 1 terminator, 1 jumppack so they can use the bike to easily stretch back for aura buffs, terminator to tank AP0 on his 2+, jump pack so they can fall back and shoot, and storm shields for everything else shot at them- put out nearly the same number of shots as our rubrics and can choose between ap-2 and 2+ to wound ammo.  The later being really good at moving down daemons btw. 

 

My route to success has been:

*Battalion

Ahriman on Disc, Terminator sorcerer (high magister, familiar), 5x rubric, 20 tzaangor, 20 tzaangor, shaman, 6 bow enlightened

*Supreme Command

3x DPoT (talons/wings)

*Battalion

Changecaster, Changling, 30 pink horror, 30 pink horror, 10 brimstone

 

With this list you take away your opponents targets - those awesome expensive gun have to shoot at 7 point horror screens and you've filled your backfield with so many models they can't fly past you.  20 tzangors in the webway, 20 for the DMC either means a T1+T2 1-2 punch or a double drop turn 2 to overwhelm what line is left.  All the while 15 casts focus on MW output - typically average around 18-20 / turn.  If a full squad of horrors gets a target, 90 s4 +1to wound flickering shots will dissolve most. And T3 when the horrors are just about dead and the screen is falling apart your force has closed to melee range and the DPoTs jump over whats left and destroy.  The thing I struggle with is hammer and anvil deployments, with a guaranteed 24" between sides getting a T1 kill is hard and you can't DMC the goats in unsupported - they kill a unit and then die, also making your opponent not move forward so you have all the advancing to do.

 

I would like to see our lists go head to head, you might have enough psykers to suppress my MW output if you stay together and near my casters - but I have a feeling casters will be outside 24 of each other but within 24 of their targets.  3x 40ish shots doesn't do much against 4++/6+++ just like 2x 90ish doesn't dent against a 2+.  But in the fight phase, 40 tzaangors and 3 melee princes will gut whatever is left from the closing together shoot out.  I don't know... I have enough rubrics I might have a buddy run my list and I'll run yours. 

 

IMO - the key to winning 40k with Thousand Sons is playing in every phase.  Your list gives the fight phase to your opponent... 

[CrystalSeer]

Good points / thoughts. My response to the fight phase thus far has been to overwatch, step back, then use flanking units and spells to overcome the attacking unit. This is heavily reliant on setting up interlocking fires. I'm not terribly concerned by deathwatch, as they seem like you can focus them down if you get the timing right. 7 Fliers would pose a challenge. I wonder if I would be able to control enough board space to force them back.

 

Over the next few months I will expand to putting in my daemons contingent, but for the moment I'm doing rubric only mostly just as a challenge. The absolute conviction on the internet that it's not playable fuels my inner hipster-nerd.

[kernbanks]

A computer hiccup just lost my reply... so short and sweet vs a nice long one.  Deathwatch can deep strike those mixed squads easily - and recall them if they have terminators in there.  That means they really dictate the where and when and almost always get the alpha strike on the unit(s) they want dead.  And they get 40 shots for about 200 points - we are paying 400ish... bottom line they have more, more mobile, and more flexible rapid anti-marine fire than we do.  And after the alpha strike your half strength squads are not going hurt when they punch back, but not destroy units...

[CrystalSeer]

Sounds rough. Seems strange that they'd have that much output for so little, and yet have so few players.

[kernbanks]

No readily available models is one barrier and the 3 detachment limit for 2000 point games is the other.  The first is pretty easy to over come if you are a modeler and do some kit bashing, the models get expensive, stormbolters from a terminator, the deathwatch stormshield and marine work pretty well but need to be fitted up.  The later is the harder choice for top tier players, guard brigade for CPs, knight, blood angels for smash captains, death watch for anti horde / anti infantry.  You can only pick 3 and the guard brigade is a must so you have the CPs to feed the knight or smash captains... Deathwatch can build a smash captain but they don't have the relic hammer or the relic ignore overwatch, or the strat for a 3d6 charge so they are significantly worse.  Blood Angles on the other hand can still bring scouts to help with board control and the extra points can go back to the guard in the form of wyverns to kill troops. 

 

If I ever turned loyalist I would lean crusader + gallant + gallant, deathwatch, guard and allow smash knights to answer my melee needs. 

[kernbanks]

All this being said, I'm bailing on Tzaangors and Pink Horrors and bringing rubrics to Adepticon... it's going to be my funeral with all the hordes and limited terrain but will be interesting.

[The Yncarne]

Sounds like an investment in LoS blocking terrain might be a better investment.

[Heliomanes]

Hm, I think you can make a case for a good renegade Knights plus Thousand Sons build. Our sorcerers and goats are just so dang useful, especially with all of our redeployment shenanigans - and Thousand Sons, even with goats, seem a bit too flimsy, which a good Knight or three could mitigate significantly. Since my two armies are Admech plus Loyalist knights vs Thousand Sons and Daemon allies, I've started considering briding the gap between the two armies I tend to field... Not entirely sure what that kind of list would look like, in the end.

[kernbanks]

Renegade knights are hands down worse than their imperial cousins.  Strats, warlord traits (achieving multiple at once), relics (again multiple at once), interaction with mechanicum tech priests for healing (warpsmiths can't)... the only thing we do they don't is dual avenger cannons.

 

This is doubled for Thousand Sons as you say, our units are expensive and tossing 500+ points on a single knight means we get fewer tzaangors, sorcerers, and allied daemons.  It also means that one knight is probably the only big threat and it cannot boost its defenses. 

 

IMO, greater daemons are far better big damage dealers for us to ally in.  A Blood Thirster of Insensate Rage AND Lord of Change come in about the same points, have more wounds, present more targets, have damage mitigation (-1 dmg warlord trait, relic armor on both/either, warpsurge to boost invul further), can cast powers, and are more serious melee threats.  Just my two cents.